New to Vinyl, need a turntable...

[brokenthumb]

Originally Posted by kefrank

I happen to be the same guy who wrote that over on vinylengine. Obviously, I own a Music Hall MMF-2.2 (non-LE). I believe the MMF-2.2 uses the Pro-ject 9 tonearm (based on the effective arm length - I can't find that actually documented anywhere), while the Pro-ject Debut III uses the Pro-ject 8.6, so that's another advantage for the Music Hall. The only other difference is the stock cartridge (Debut III has the OM5e while the MMF-2.2 has a rebadged Goldring Elektra that they call the Music Hall Tracker). You can get a full rundown of my thoughts on the MMF-2.2 from earlier this year if you search this forum.

I tried to research the Music Hall PA-1.2 phono stage awhile back, but info on the internet was pretty scarce at that time. I'm almost certain it's a rebadged Pro-ject Phonobox II though, so it's not a bad choice. That being said, many people swear by the Cambridge Audio 640p in the same price range.

I almost pulled the trigger on the Pro-ject over my lunch break. I will probably wait until the beginning of next week to purchase so I can do more research. $500 - $600 is a nice lump of cash for me, so I don't want to jump right in.

I will take a look at your rundown of the MMF 2.2 and look into the Cambridge also. Thank you for the info kefrank.

[Chizzap30]

Originally Posted by brokenthumb

I almost pulled the trigger on the Pro-ject over my lunch break. I will probably wait until the beginning of next week to purchase so I can do more research. $500 - $600 is a nice lump of cash for me, so I don't want to jump right in.

I will take a look at your rundown of the MMF 2.2 and look into the Cambridge also. Thank you for the info kefrank.

As working for a dealer of both the Rega and the Project. I would recommend the Rega P-1. The tone arm on the Rega tends to be a little more advances with the anti-skating set up. Also as I mentioned in another post that the platter of the Rega is made of MDF where the Projects is made of steel. The issue with the steel platter is that it resonates somewhat. This can lead to vibrations traveling from the platter to the vinyl and back through the cartridge. It's not something extremely noticeable, but it does tend to be there.

Where have you been looking for the table? Have you had a chance to audition any of these tables?

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Chizzap30

As working for a dealer of both the Rega and the Project. I would recommend the Rega P-1. The tone arm on the Rega tends to be a little more advances with the anti-skating set up. Also as I mentioned in another post that the platter of the Rega is made of MDF where the Projects is made of steel. The issue with the steel platter is that it resonates somewhat. This can lead to vibrations traveling from the platter to the vinyl and back through the cartridge. It's not something extremely noticeable, but it does tend to be there.

Where have you been looking for the table? Have you had a chance to audition any of these tables?

When I was considering the same tables, these are the main reasons I opted for the Music Hall over the Rega:
-- While Rega tonearms are generally very well-revered, the RB100 model on the P1 makes some compromises that the Music Hall arm does not
-- VTA adjustment available only on the Music Hall
-- Personally preferred the substantial coated metal alloy platter to the Rega's lightweight MDF (no resonance noticed with mine)
-- Preferred the aesthetics of the Music Hall

Additional considerations:
-- Rega's TTPSU is considerably more expensive than the Pro-ject Speedbox, but offers the same functional upgrade
-- Pro-ject Acryl-it platter is easy upgrade for the Music Hall if any negative effect of the stock platter is noticed

All that being said, in this price range I'm sure the OP would be content with the Pro-ject, Rega, or Music Hall as the differences are minimal. My choice of the Music Hall came down to it being the best combo of initial quality, upgradeability, and aesthetic preferences for me.

[FreddieFerric]

Hi BrokenThumb!

Glad to see that you're interested in making an investment into enjoying vinyl. If you like the Ferrari Red TT, check out this phono stage. It's powder coat red is very nice. I use this preamp in my system and have been very impressed with its musicality. It's actually a Stereophile B rated component. Add a 1950's vintage tube at around $45 and you're in for some really good sound.

I bought from these guys and can recommend them without reservation. (BTW, there price is waayy lower than most other outlets for this preamp).

http://www.performanceaudio.com/cgi/...oducts_id=4787

[brokenthumb]

Originally Posted by BluRayFred

Hi BrokenThumb!

Glad to see that you're interested in making an investment into enjoying vinyl. If you like the Ferrari Red TT, check out this phono stage. It's powder coat red is very nice. I use this preamp in my system and have been very impressed with its musicality. It's actually a Stereophile B rated component. Add a 1950's vintage tube at around $45 and you're in for some really good sound.

I bought from these guys and can recommend them without reservation. (BTW, there price is waayy lower than most other outlets for this preamp).

http://www.performanceaudio.com/cgi/...oducts_id=4787

I like the looks of the Belllari but I've been reading about some hum issues. Have they been resolved or have you experienced any?

Being about the same price which would be the better phono preamp, the Cambridge 640P or the Bellari VP130?



Another option I have been considering is going with a Rega P2 or Pro-Ject Xpression III... I would need to save more for a preamp though.

[joe1515]

Originally Posted by brokenthumb

I like the looks of the Belllari but I've been reading about some hum issues. Have they been resolved or have you experienced any?

Being about the same price which would be the better phono preamp, the Cambridge 640P or the Bellari VP130?



Another option I have been considering is going with a Rega P2 or Pro-Ject Xpression III... I would need to save more for a preamp though.

I used to have a Pro-ject Xpression III and it was a great entry level table. You can't go wrong with either Rega or Pro-Ject.

Joe

[brokenthumb]

After much debate I've decided to go with the Music Hall MMF 2.2 LE and the Bellari VP130.

I'm going to use BluRayFred's link for the Bellari. As for the Music hall does anyone have any experience with this site? http://www.decibel.com/ They have the Music Hall with free 3 day shipping, a 30 day money back guarantee, and a 6 month exchange privilege.

[FreddieFerric]

Originally Posted by brokenthumb

I like the looks of the Belllari but I've been reading about some hum issues. Have they been resolved or have you experienced any?

Hi BT. I resolved the hum very quickly (on the first day). The OEM tube is a fairly cheap Chinese job that should be replaced. I bought a vingtage 1950's NOS Telefunken ribbed plate from an Agon seller for $45. It dropped the noise floor dramatically and improved the richness and dynamics of the preamp tremendously. I know that Andrew (mdabb) prefers the RCA Blackplates for around the same price. I will likely buy one the next time I see a good one being offered. That's the really cool thing about the Bellari. If you want to really change the sound, all you have to do is roll the tube! If you decide to go in the Bellari's direction, PM me or mdabb, we'll fill you in on a bus load of info about tube rolling.

[brokenthumb]

Originally Posted by BluRayFred

Hi BT. I resolved the hum very quickly (on the first day). The OEM tube is a fairly cheap Chinese job that should be replaced. I bought a vingtage 1950's NOS Telefunken ribbed plate from an Agon seller for $45. It dropped the noise floor dramatically and improved the richness and dynamics of the preamp tremendously. I know that Andrew (mdabb) prefers the RCA Blackplates for around the same price. I will likely buy one the next time I see a good one being offered. That's the really cool thing about the Bellari. If you want to really change the sound, all you have to do is roll the tube! If you decide to go in the Bellari's direction, PM me or mdabb, we'll fill you in on a bus load of info about tube rolling.

Sounds very interesting and seems like it would be fun to experiment with different tubes!

About cleaning records, I have bought four new albums in the last week, do they need to be cleaned before being played for the first time? Is this a decent brush to start off with? Link

Edit: I have another question. When I connect the phono stage to my receiver, do I only use the front left and right speakers? Should I avoid using my subs and any extra processing also?

[CasualKiller]

I would go with the Technics SL-1200 mentioned above. A solid performer and no need for a speed controller. This should be your number 1 table to audition.

The Pro-Ject tables are very detailed and clean, but that is also their biggest flaw, it leaves a lot to be desired in the low end and a speedbox is pretty much mandatory.

Many people don't realize it but the lower end Music Hall tables are manufactured by Pro-Ject and use much of the same parts so there is really no difference between them.

The Rega P1 leaves a lot to be desired, a lack of adjustments, weak entry level cartridge and noisy motor make it a table for the very beginner that isn't looking for a serious commitment to vinyl.

And before I get jumped on I have owned Pro-Jects RPM 5, the Rega P1, a Pioneer PL-550 (amazing table) a Technics SL-D2 and my recent aquisition a Yamaha YP-511.

My firm opinion is that there is no shortage of modern/vintage Japanese direct drives that will give many of these big names "entry level" tables a serious run for their money.

[FreddieFerric]

Originally Posted by CasualKiller

I would go with the Technics SL-1200 mentioned above. A solid performer and no need for a speed controller. This should be your number 1 table to audition.

The Pro-Ject tables are very detailed and clean, but that is also their biggest flaw, it leaves a lot to be desired in the low end and a speedbox is pretty much mandatory.

Many people don't realize it but the lower end Music Hall tables are manufactured by Pro-Ject and use much of the same parts so there is really no difference between them.

The Rega P1 leaves a lot to be desired, a lack of adjustments, weak entry level cartridge and noisy motor make it a table for the very beginner that isn't looking for a serious commitment to vinyl.

And before I get jumped on I have owned Pro-Jects RPM 5, the Rega P1, a Pioneer PL-550 (amazing table) a Technics SL-D2 and my recent aquisition a Yamaha YP-511.

My firm opinion is that there is no shortage of modern/vintage Japanese direct drives that will give many of these big names "entry level" tables a serious run for their money.

Now I REALLY love you CK! as I just happen to own the Technics SL 1210 Mk V. Naturally I love my TT despite the fact that it's the Rodney Dangerfield of TT's in certain audiophile circles. What I'll say about it? Dead quiet operation - NO rumble or wow and flutter. Runs dead on speed at all times all the time - no freakin' exceptions. Detachable headshell supports just about every conceivable type of cartridge (p-mounts excluded); and to all those who try to demean this TT by criticizing its arm - to that I say balderdash! It has a very good arm.

So to BrokenThumb I would most enthusiastically recommend any of the current Technics tables, I just didn't want to be the one to suggest it for obvious reasons.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Here's my 2 cents.

At the price point being discussed there are little to no audible differences between tables, unless you happen to catch a lemon. These tables are produced to bring new vinylphiles into the fold as a starting rig, nothing more. To debate in-depth their characteristics is IMO almost a waste of time. They all do the job and their features and materials are different, but hey are all still only entry-level tables. You better have a really well-trained ear to tell the difference between them, which I doubt most people have.

John

[richteer]

Originally Posted by John72953

At the price point being discussed there are little to no audible differences between tables, unless you happen to catch a lemon. These tables are produced to bring new vinylphiles into the fold as a starting rig, nothing more. To debate in-depth their characteristics is IMO almost a waste of time. They all do the job and their features and materials are different, but hey are all still only entry-level tables. You better have a really well-trained ear to tell the difference between them, which I doubt most people have.

John

Good points, to which I would add that if one can easily audition them, you might as well. As for the Technics (and other similar TTs) recommended by others, let's just say that I personally would put them in the same category as those $100 Ion TTs (i.e., I wouldn't touch 'em)...

[Chizzap30]

Originally Posted by kefrank

When I was considering the same tables, these are the main reasons I opted for the Music Hall over the Rega:
-- While Rega tonearms are generally very well-revered, the RB100 model on the P1 makes some compromises that the Music Hall arm does not
-- VTA adjustment available only on the Music Hall
-- Personally preferred the substantial coated metal alloy platter to the Rega's lightweight MDF (no resonance noticed with mine)
-- Preferred the aesthetics of the Music Hall

Additional considerations:
-- Rega's TTPSU is considerably more expensive than the Pro-ject Speedbox, but offers the same functional upgrade
-- Pro-ject Acryl-it platter is easy upgrade for the Music Hall if any negative effect of the stock platter is noticed

All that being said, in this price range I'm sure the OP would be content with the Pro-ject, Rega, or Music Hall as the differences are minimal. My choice of the Music Hall came down to it being the best combo of initial quality, upgradeability, and aesthetic preferences for me.

Kef,

The information was not directed towards you. I didn't speak of the Music Halls since I do not have experience with their tables, setting up or listening so I would not be an appropriate authority on the Music Hall. My main comparison has been with my experience with the Rega and the Pro-ject.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Chizzap30

Kef,

The information was not directed towards you. I didn't speak of the Music Halls since I do not have experience with their tables, setting up or listening so I would not be an appropriate authority on the Music Hall. My main comparison has been with my experience with the Rega and the Pro-ject.

No, I know your original post wasn't directed at me. I quoted you, but was mainly providing my comparison writeup for the benefit of the OP.

[DougMac]

Originally Posted by Chizzap30

Also as I mentioned in another post that the platter of the Rega is made of MDF where the Projects is made of steel. The issue with the steel platter is that it resonates somewhat. This can lead to vibrations traveling from the platter to the vinyl and back through the cartridge. It's not something extremely noticeable, but it does tend to be there.

When attributes of turntables are discussed, differences like this are pointed out. Often these differences are used in marketing to distinguish a particular turntable from another. Also, there are proponents of one design over the other and inevitably someone will state strong opinions concerning the superiority of the design they purchased.

Although I know I was born in Georgia, sometimes I think I'm from Missouri. Using platter materials as an example, I have to questions. Are the differences measurable? Are they audible? If so, under what conditions would they become a factor? Furthermore, assuming the resonance of a steel platter is both measurable and audible in normal listening circumstances, by using MDF, do I introduce other factors that may be as important or more important than resonance?

There's also environmental issues to be considered. As alluded to in the post, the differences may be subtle. There's a good chance that whatever slight advantage an MDF platter may have will be completely negated by the placement of the turntable and the material on which it is placed.

Unfortunately, these are the kinds of questions that pop up in my head. That may be why it takes anywhere from 6 months to a year for me to decide on an electronic purchase. I've actually had gear go obsolete while I was in the throws of making a choice.

Keep in mind the above is largely rhetorical and not meant to stir up the masses.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by DougMac

When attributes of turntables are discussed, differences like this are pointed out. Often these differences are used in marketing to distinguish a particular turntable from another. Also, there are proponents of one design over the other and inevitably someone will state strong opinions concerning the superiority of the design they purchased.

Although I know I was born in Georgia, sometimes I think I'm from Missouri. Using platter materials as an example, I have to questions. Are the differences measurable? Are they audible? If so, under what conditions would they become a factor? Furthermore, assuming the resonance of a steel platter is both measurable and audible in normal listening circumstances, by using MDF, do I introduce other factors that may be as important or more important than resonance?

There's also environmental issues to be considered. As alluded to in the post, the differences may be subtle. There's a good chance that whatever slight advantage an MDF platter may have will be completely negated by the placement of the turntable and the material on which it is placed.

Unfortunately, these are the kinds of questions that pop up in my head. That may be why it takes anywhere from 6 months to a year for me to decide on an electronic purchase. I've actually had gear go obsolete while I was in the throws of making a choice.

Keep in mind the above is largely rhetorical and not meant to stir up the masses.

Dude, I know exactly where you're coming from. This is why, if at all possible, the best approach is to just go audition what you're considering and pick what sounds the best to you in your budget. It's fine to balance that against some basic research, but getting caught up in all those details can be maddening when ultimately, you just want to listen to music.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by kefrank

Dude, I know exactly where you're coming from. This is why, if at all possible, the best approach is to just go audition what you're considering and pick what sounds the best to you in your budget. It's fine to balance that against some basic research, but getting caught up in all those details can be maddening when ultimately, you just want to listen to music.

Agreed. I would add that if possible, try to audition a really high end TT set up so that you can get a better idea of what is possible from those lovely black discs. In my opininon, the difference between a good budget deck and a really high end one is staggering. Even if one doesn't aspire to the state of the art (and there's nothing wrong with that!), it's nice to know what the state of the art is.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by richteer

Agreed. I would add that if possible, try to audition a really high end TT set up so that you can get a better idea of what is possible from those lovely black discs. In my opininon, the difference between a good budget deck and a really high end one is staggering. Even if one doesn't aspire to the state of the art (and there's nothing wrong with that!), it's nice to know what the state of the art is.

For sure! I am always in awe when I get together with my buddy and listen to the black gold on his Oracle Delphi MkII.

John