HDMI Cables

[john_1958]

Originally Posted by starkent08

my first hdmi cables were cheap phillips cables then i went to belkin then to monster i noticed a big differece in all three like night and day not necessarily in better picture but in the level of detail and coloring so there is a difference in cables i have compared and i notice it ive also had all my friends have noticed it too any one doubt me come see for yourself

i agree with you !
I switched to monster long ago and also noticed a huge improvement in detail
objects on the screen have more 3d shapes and detail especially when viewing photos

[ajvdbg]

Are the data that are moved to your hard-disk better if moved by a so-called higher-quality cable? Same goes for data moved to your HDTV via HDMI.

[blindcat87]

What kills me is that there is no real debate or discussion going on, just "I saw it, so it is" and not even an attempt to address the facts. Not one of these brand fans has managed to come up with a reason why one company takes the same wire from the same factory line and magically makes it better. Just setting aside the differences between analog and digital, the lack of proper setup for comparisons to alleviate the effect of expectations, and all of the other issues, Monster and all of the other brands are the exact same wire under the jacket but somehow the name brand on the wire makes the picture and/or the sound better. Not one fan has explained how this magical effect is accomplished. If Monster made their own HDMI wire they might at least have that as a talking point, but there are no Monster HDMI factories, it is all OEMs, the same ones that Monoprice and all of the others, even BJC for their lower price line source their cable from. It just boggles the mind.

I agree with you, the main reason I keep up trying to feed some fact and logic into this discussion is because of the newbies who so often fall into the trap. I fell into it myself with speaker wire as a new A/V fan and quickly learned through direct A/B comparisons that I could do better and save a lot of money. With HDMI, I own BJC and Monoprice cables, and have A/B tested and the difference between the cables is that the BJC have a bit of a better fit and finish and that is it. I wouldn't spend my money on other expensive brand HDMI cables, but have helped some others do some comparisons which led to some returns of expensive cables. I had the good fortune in my undergrad to fill in some of the required courses for the psych half of my double major with some perception and sense and sensation courses, when you have an idea of exactlyhow your brain processes sensory information and how short the time for retention of detail is, you learn much better how to make real comparisons. That is why I am so adamant about A/B testing, while it does not eliminate placebo and bias, it at least allows one to make a valid comparison, while the whole hook up, test, unhook, hook up, test scheme has zero validity except to compare anything beyond the difference between bad and artifact filled and good and works. Setting up valid tests at home isn't really all that hard, but most just don't care to do it.

Anyway, long way of saying I am with you on this one.

Chris

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

Some people just cannot be reasoned with. They refuse to accept facts and hard data over their mind's perception. As I've said before, that's fine. Good for them. They are all welcome to enjoy their perceived improvements in detail, color, etc after throwing their $$ away on overpriced cables.

All I (and everyone else who actually understands the technology) ask is that you NOT try to convince others that your delusions are fact. It's bad enough we have no-knowledge sales people pushing the need for these overpriced cables. We certainly don't need any of that around here where people come for actual FACTS.

[john_1958]

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/electronics/2009/06/hdmi-14-standard-hd-audio-video-connection-cable-high-def-interconnects-hdmi-explained-high-quality-connections-high-def-vide.html
http://hothardware.com/News/HDMI-14-Brings-Ethernet-3D-4K-Support-To-AV/
http://dvice.com/archives/2009/05/hdmi-14-standar.php
http://www.hemagazine.com/HDMI_14

best to have cables that are future ready even if 3d blu-ray comes along
personaly i perfer non-glasses when it comes to 3d and no ethernet

[john_1958]

Originally Posted by blindcat87

What kills me is that there is no real debate or discussion going on, just "I saw it, so it is" and not even an attempt to address the facts. Not one of these brand fans has managed to come up with a reason why one company takes the same wire from the same factory line and magically makes it better. Just setting aside the differences between analog and digital, the lack of proper setup for comparisons to alleviate the effect of expectations, and all of the other issues, Monster and all of the other brands are the exact same wire under the jacket but somehow the name brand on the wire makes the picture and/or the sound better. Not one fan has explained how this magical effect is accomplished. If Monster made their own HDMI wire they might at least have that as a talking point, but there are no Monster HDMI factories, it is all OEMs, the same ones that Monoprice and all of the others, even BJC for their lower price line source their cable from. It just boggles the mind.

I agree with you, the main reason I keep up trying to feed some fact and logic into this discussion is because of the newbies who so often fall into the trap. I fell into it myself with speaker wire as a new A/V fan and quickly learned through direct A/B comparisons that I could do better and save a lot of money. With HDMI, I own BJC and Monoprice cables, and have A/B tested and the difference between the cables is that the BJC have a bit of a better fit and finish and that is it. I wouldn't spend my money on other expensive brand HDMI cables, but have helped some others do some comparisons which led to some returns of expensive cables. I had the good fortune in my undergrad to fill in some of the required courses for the psych half of my double major with some perception and sense and sensation courses, when you have an idea of exactlyhow your brain processes sensory information and how short the time for retention of detail is, you learn much better how to make real comparisons. That is why I am so adamant about A/B testing, while it does not eliminate placebo and bias, it at least allows one to make a valid comparison, while the whole hook up, test, unhook, hook up, test scheme has zero validity except to compare anything beyond the difference between bad and artifact filled and good and works. Setting up valid tests at home isn't really all that hard, but most just don't care to do it.

Anyway, long way of saying I am with you on this one.

Chris

I'm no newbie when it comes to HD

[blindcat87]

I did not say you or anyone else on this thread were newbies. Anyone in particular being or not being a newbie does not change the facts of biology, the facts of physics, or the facts of HDMI cable production locations and the limits thereof. As for HDMI 1.4, all of the other manufacturers make cables with the same capabilities. Why, because, once again, it is the same copper, the same wire from the same lines in China. The differences between lines within brands is not where they were made, but their gauge and what tests were run to certify them.

Chris

Originally Posted by john_1958

I'm no newbie when it comes to HD

[starkent08]

ive run the diff cables side by side there is a difference my samsung has a 14 bit panel the monsters i have do up to 16 bit the phillips up to 8 bit hence the color saturation difference dont critizize what uve never owned or cant afford

[blindcat87]

Ah, now we jump to the jealousy defense. Completely ignoring along with all of the previously posted facts, the information that I, and other critics in this thread HAVE indeed experienced these cables. I don't own them, but I have compared them in several different systems, and so have many others who know they do not make a difference. Read up on placebo and on how to do a proper A/B test.

And once again the question of how the same wire produced on the same factory line is China accomplishes this miracle is completely ignored. There are no Monster HDMI factories, all of the cable comes from the same OEMs that supply Monoprice, Sony, Monster, and BJC with the exception of their top line which is the only HDMI cable produced in the US, and all of the others. This is fact, this is documented, you can check it out for yourself by following links posted earlier in this thread or doing some independent research. The different lines, both of Monster and of the other brands vary in gauge and in which tests have been run to certify them at varying levels. At the same gauge and level, the difference between a Monster HDMI cable and another one is the Monster logo on the wrapper and terminations. All of the manufacturers have cables certified to handle the same bandwidth as any of the Monster cables. This, again, is fact. People are free to ignore the facts and to continue to fail to address them, but as long as the posting of the facts can help one newbie avoid the trap of wasting their money when it could be better spent on other brands and in other parts of their systems, the same trap I fell into during my newbie days when I did, as I said before experience Monster products, I will continue to post facts.

Chris

Originally Posted by starkent08

ive run the diff cables side by side there is a difference my samsung has a 14 bit panel the monsters i have do up to 16 bit the phillips up to 8 bit hence the color saturation difference dont critizize what uve never owned or cant afford

[Johnny Vinyl]

The Placebo effect only affects about 35% of the population.


John

[blindcat87]

When dealing with pharmacology maybe. But sensory input, by nature is universally vulnerable. Our senses are designed to fill in gaps in information and expectations, past experience, and both conscious and subconscious bias are part of what the brain uses to fill in the gaps. The fleeting nature of visual and audial recall make these senses particularly vulnerable.

Chris

Originally Posted by John72953

The Placebo effect only affects about 35% of the population.


John

[Johnny Vinyl]

I made the point only to illustrate that not all disbelievers of your viewpoint should be lumped into the category of having been affected by the "placebo effect". I'm sure you are well aware of the "nocebo" effect as well.

John

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by starkent08

ive run the diff cables side by side there is a difference my samsung has a 14 bit panel the monsters i have do up to 16 bit the phillips up to 8 bit hence the color saturation difference dont critizize what uve never owned or cant afford

You may have a 14 bit panel, and your cables "claim" to be able to handle up to 16 bit color, but maybe you can enlighten us as to just what content you have that is over 8 bit color?

[ZoetMB]

A few comments:
1. Most electronics stores I've been to that display lots of sets along a wall don't use HDMI at all. They use component video because that's what's supported by their distribution amps. I know that's used primarily for TV signals, but I haven't seen many plug a Blu-ray into a monitor using HDMI either.

2. Unless you're in a high-end retailer that carefully calibrates their monitors, you can't judge anything from a store except how painfully wrong they adjust their images. Retailers are notorious for turning contrast, brightness and color to painful levels because that's what sells to the average person. (I sold audio equipment back in the 1970s and a bass-heavy and high-end heavy speaker would outsell an accurate-sounding speaker every time. So the chain OEM model always beat (for example) the AR-4aX, even though the AR was the far better speaker. )

3. Even at the Sony Store on Madison Avenue in NYC (where they do calibrate their monitors properly), I saw a demo of Hitch playing on a Sony 50XBR9 and it looked like total crap. I can't quite explain what was wrong, but all the pixels looked weird. I asked the salesperson about it and they blamed the disc, although the disc was well-reviewed here. I still don't know what was wrong, but if they switched cables and it got better, that would indeed have made me a "believer", assuming the original cable didn't have a break or short.

4. The poster who claimed they saw a substantial difference using a better quality cable probably had a bad cable or a bad connection.

5. I agree with those who feel that only blind (actually double-blind) A-B testing can reveal true differences (yes, I'm an objectivist, not a subjectivist). It's amazing how our minds will play tricks on us when we're expecting a certain result. Someone posted elsewhere that they felt their car operated better after they took it to the car wash. I had to laugh at that because I feel exactly the same way, even though I know that's impossible. But I could come up with marketing-speak to explain it which is every bit as good as the junk that Monster puts out. ("The water dispersion and wax causes a skin effect in the engine hood that dissipates the effects of uneven cylinder heating and thereby causes the engine to run smoother and more efficiently.")


You're arguing back and forth about this stuff and I wonder why you're even bothering. This is most definitely a religious argument. Either you believe on faith that the high-end cables do a better job or you seek a scientific explanation as to how they possibly can. Either you believe you've been abducted by aliens or you believe that people who claim such partially awoke from REM sleep. Each side is never going to convert the other side. I thought The God Delusion was a great book, but I wouldn't expect anyone who believes in a religious faith to suddenly become an atheist after reading the book.

[blindcat87]

Yes, it is two sides of the same coin. Which is why I believe in setting up proper comparisons, or at least as proper as possible within reason in a home setting. Expectations are the danger on both sides of the equation, "expect to hear or see" and "expect not to hear or see" can lead to the same pitfall. As I've said before, I am not a "no difference in any cable" person. I've experienced plenty of difference in various cables. I also disagree with the notion that all properly functioning amps sound the same, an idea that I know has quite a large following. But I think it is as important, whether one believes in differences in interconnects or not, to learn as much as one can about how one's senses work and how to compensate for the limitations as much as possible. Taking one's senses at face value without considering these facts can be as dangerous as taking gear specs at face value.

Chris

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by blindcat87

Yes, it is two sides of the same coin. Which is why I believe in setting up proper comparisons, or at least as proper as possible within reason in a home setting. Expectations are the danger on both sides of the equation, "expect to hear or see" and "expect not to hear or see" can lead to the same pitfall. As I've said before, I am not a "no difference in any cable" person. I've experienced plenty of difference in various cables. I also disagree with the notion that all properly functioning amps sound the same, an idea that I know has quite a large following. But I think it is as important, whether one believes in differences in interconnects or not, to learn as much as one can about how one's senses work and how to compensate for the limitations as much as possible. Taking one's senses at face value without considering these facts can be as dangerous as taking gear specs at face value.

Chris

Purely as a point of interest and NOT a critique...can you explain this further, especially the part I underlined. I'm curious.

John

[blindcat87]

Sure, if you will tell me which part you underlined. I use a screenreader to access the internet, so it does not read formatting to me. The screen name is literal, the first part anyway. I have retinitus pigmentosa and though I have vision, small CRTs really bother me so I don't even bother with one. I try to reserve my wearing/eye tiring viewing for movies.

Chris

Originally Posted by John72953

Purely as a point of interest and NOT a critique...can you explain this further, especially the part I underlined. I'm curious.

John

[crackinhedz]

Originally Posted by starkent08

my samsung has a 14 bit panel the monsters i have do up to 16 bit the phillips up to 8 bit hence the color saturation difference

Bluray is 8 bit.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by blindcat87

Sure, if you will tell me which part you underlined. I use a screenreader to access the internet, so it does not read formatting to me. The screen name is literal, the first part anyway. I have retinitus pigmentosa and though I have vision, small CRTs really bother me so I don't even bother with one. I try to reserve my wearing/eye tiring viewing for movies.

Chris

This is the part I had underlined:

to learn as much as one can about how one's senses work and how to compensate for the limitations as much as possible

John

[blindcat87]

What I mean is that both visual and audial recall at a critical level is limited to just a couple of seconds. This is why a/B switching is so important. It is not that you cannot remember what you saw, it is that the ability to recall all of the fine detail that is most important fades too quickly for the standard switching method to work. after the time limit is passed, all of those expectations and bias begin to fill in the gaps. Being aware of this is, to me, more important even than being aware of the effects that bias and expectations can have. Most people who have not studied in a field that deals with perception and sensation or who have not faced learning how to make the most out of a fading sense are not aware of this. We believe that we saw or heard what we remember hearing or seeing, but this is only true in a general sense..

Chris

Originally Posted by John72953

This is the part I had underlined:



John

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by blindcat87

What I mean is that both visual and audial recall at a critical level is limited to just a couple of seconds. This is why a/B switching is so important. It is not that you cannot remember what you saw, it is that the ability to recall all of the fine detail that is most important fades too quickly for the standard switching method to work. after the time limit is passed, all of those expectations and bias begin to fill in the gaps. Being aware of this is, to me, more important even than being aware of the effects that bias and expectations can have. Most people who have not studied in a field that deals with perception and sensation or who have not faced learning how to make the most out of a fading sense are not aware of this. We believe that we saw or heard what we remember hearing or seeing, but this is only true in a general sense..

Chris

I understand what you are saying, and in such a case an A/B switching test would be of benefit. However, we cannot realistically employ such switch tests in our own homes when comparing an existing component with a newly introduced one. Additionally, I'm not not sure if I'd want to.

I don't want to be bound by tests and figures when introducing a new component (amp, source, cable, etc.) into my system at home. My interest in this hobby, as it has been for the past 40+ years, is about the emotion the music gives me. I don't want to be bogged down by numbers and tests. Once I give in to looking at that.....my system has taken over and the music is now secondary.

Does that make sense to you?

John