Japanese Translator for CEATEC info?

[gand41f]

Originally Posted by tvted

The AVS discussion on this one certainly presents some interesting impressions. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=918107

If correct, HD-DVD reveals itself as a wannabe format, pursuing what BD already has - region coding, capacity. You have to wonder why not support the format that already has these specs and is actively improving the quality of the tech? Why is it that it is only acceptable when applied to HD-DVD but unacceptable or unnecessary on its competitor? So are HD users now going to stop ridiculing BD's profiles?

These of course are rhetorical questions as I'm sure most here have similar answers, so no need to discuss it in this thread.

I too look forward to an accurate translation - though WickyWoo is likely right - no subtlety here. It will prove to be yet another confirmation of BD's strengths and the hypocrisy in the forthcoming response of many of the HD DVD formats most ardent supporters.

ted

Sorry, don't have time to go through the entire article, but if you are interested in this part about TL51:

"層数増加に対応するために、ドライブ側で球面収差補正が必要となるという。"

is in question, then the Google translation:

"because it corresponds to number of layers increase, spherical aberration revision becomes necessary on drive side."

is pretty much correct. (Maybe replace "revision" with "correction" and it will be better.) It doesn't explicitly mention whether it can be played back with current drives (as opposed to Twin-format SL DVD+DL HD DVD, which it says it won't be playable in current drives).

enjoy
gandalf

[w_tanoto]

Originally Posted by gand41f

Sorry, don't have time to go through the entire article, but if you are interested in this part about TL51:

"層数増加に対応するために、ドライブ側で球面収差補正が必要となるという。"

is in question, then the Google translation:

"because it corresponds to number of layers increase, spherical aberration revision becomes necessary on drive side."

is pretty much correct. (Maybe replace "revision" with "correction" and it will be better.) It doesn't explicitly mention whether it can be played back with current drives (as opposed to Twin-format SL DVD+DL HD DVD, which it says it won't be playable in current drives).

enjoy
gandalf

finally, a translation from a true japanese. thanks.

It doesn't explicitly mention whether it can be played back with current drives (as opposed to Twin-format SL DVD+DL HD DVD, which it says it won't be playable in current drives)

so there is still posibilities that triple layer can be used in current player. sory, don't get what you mean with SL DVD+DL HD DVD

[phloyd]

I think that the point is for the 'twin':

DVD DL + HD DVD SL (3 layers)

or

DVD SL + HD DVD DL (3 layers)

there is going to be some special mark (BCA?) that will have to be on the third layer and current players cannot read this mark or something like that.

[w_tanoto]

Originally Posted by phloyd

I think that the point is for the 'twin':

DVD DL + HD DVD SL (3 layers)

or

DVD SL + HD DVD DL (3 layers)

there is going to be some special mark (BCA?) that will have to be on the third layer and current players cannot read this mark or something like that.

I see. thanks for clarification.

[Frode]

You missed the first part of the line. The full translation for it is this: "Even though the playback margins is approximately the same as current HD DVDs (referring to new track pitch), in order to support the increase in layers it's become necessary for the drive to perform spherical aberration correction"

In addition there's the slide added to explain it:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/do...04/dvd1_15.jpg

"The thickness of the recording layers was increased in order to support triple layer. The increase in thickness means that in order to guarantee playback quality the spherical aberration correction function was introduced. So it would be easy to make devices, the correction values for testing are fixed for each layer"

The rest of the text is just showing the extent of change in layer thickness.

[phloyd]

So this implies that TL51 will also not be able to be read by todays players?

Or can this spherical aberration correction function be added to the firmware of the drive?

I bet it means the A1 is not going to work since the drive is an NEC reader that is self contained (what ever happened to NEC, did they give up on HD DVD?).

[w_tanoto]

Originally Posted by phloyd

So this implies that TL51 will also not be able to be read by todays players?

Or can this spherical aberration correction function be added to the firmware of the drive?

I bet it means the A1 is not going to work since the drive is an NEC reader that is self contained (what ever happened to NEC, did they give up on HD DVD?).

I just re-read it.
i am actually still confused with TL51 (HD DVD TL) compatibility. the article does not state anything about that, but states that dual format (again, silliness).
gandalf is completely right, it does not explicitly state compatibility with TL51

[mattym]

Originally Posted by Frode

You missed the first part of the line. The full translation for it is this: "Even though the playback margins is approximately the same as current HD DVDs (referring to new track pitch), in order to support the increase in layers it's become necessary for the drive to perform spherical aberration correction"

In addition there's the slide added to explain it:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/do...04/dvd1_15.jpg

"The thickness of the recording layers was increased in order to support triple layer. The increase in thickness means that in order to guarantee playback quality the spherical aberration correction function was introduced. So it would be easy to make devices, the correction values for testing are fixed for each layer"

The rest of the text is just showing the extent of change in layer thickness.

anyone good with diffraction equations be able to work out how much aberation there would be? Seems to me that its saying that it can be done, they just need to adjust for the aberation when focusing>?

[Rio]

Back from CEATEC... Had fun with attending HD DVD and BDA keynote conference

BTW, I asked a rep at the HD DVD drive section in Toshiba booth, he clearly said that drives existing now and the ones that Toshiba is about to release are not able to read TL HD DVD-ROM by firmware update, since it requires hardware change (apparently this means mandatory of the spherical aberration corrector), however, those drives could read TL Twin Format disc (SL DVD-ROM + DL HD DVD-ROM).

This is very reasonable explanation. Since the first 45GB TL putting 3 layers within only 20 micrometers, it's very difficult to get "clean" signal due to the inter-layer crosstalk caused by narrow gap between layers. The limitation of the thickness comes from its 0.6mm structure, the deeper the recording layer is, the worse bit error rate becomes because of the spherical aberration.

Now, they gave up that "old" challenge, then mandate spherical aberration correction and widen the thickness for three layers to 35 micrometers to reduce crosstalk issue...

[Chris Beveridge]

Ugh. too many disc variants with HD DVD now. How many different configurations can they continue to push out without confusing everyone? I mean hell, I follow this stuff closely and it's all starting to blury.

[Rio]

Originally Posted by Chris Beveridge

Ugh. too many disc variants with HD DVD now. How many different configurations can they continue to push out without confusing everyone? I mean hell, I follow this stuff closely and it's all starting to blury.

Exactly. You know what, they also made another DVD-R format which is incompatible to current drives/players so that the new DVD-R could record downloaded content protected by CSS. You know, there are *a lot* of books/specs DVD Forum has issued, but not a small of them are completely ignored by manufacturers/customers (no products utilizing those specs).

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Rio

Back from CEATEC... Had fun with attending HD DVD and BDA keynote conference

BTW, I asked a rep at the HD DVD drive section in Toshiba booth, he clearly said that drives existing now and the ones that Toshiba is about to release are not able to read TL HD DVD-ROM by firmware update, since it requires hardware change (apparently this means mandatory of the spherical aberration corrector), however, those drives could read TL Twin Format disc (SL DVD-ROM + DL HD DVD-ROM).

This is very reasonable explanation. Since the first 45GB TL putting 3 layers within only 20 micrometers, it's very difficult to get "clean" signal due to the inter-layer crosstalk caused by narrow gap between layers. The limitation of the thickness comes from its 0.6mm structure, the deeper the recording layer is, the worse bit error rate becomes because of the spherical aberration.

Now, they gave up that "old" challenge, then mandate spherical aberration correction and widen the thickness for three layers to 35 micrometers to reduce crosstalk issue...

Sounds like what Tosh Japan told me over the phone, though they did say they have tried to build TL capability into the new G3 players, but I wasn't sure what to make of that as G1, G2 and the add on are incompatible.

[Rio]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Sounds like what Tosh Japan told me over the phone, though they did say they have tried to build TL capability into the new G3 players, but I wasn't sure what to make of that as G1, G2 and the add on are incompatible.

No problem, since HD DVD player is always cheap, all of current owners will jump to future cheap players with joy

[Chris Beveridge]

Originally Posted by Rio

Exactly. You know what, they also made another DVD-R format which is incompatible to current drives/players so that the new DVD-R could record downloaded content protected by CSS. You know, there are *a lot* of books/specs DVD Forum has issued, but not a small of them are completely ignored by manufacturers/customers (no products utilizing those specs).

Yeah, the CSS stuff is something we've seen. The folks at Imaginasian were using it with a company called Titlematch in order to put out burn on demand discs. Issues and delays caused them to just do DVD-Rs with some other form of copy protection on it but I don't recall if they stated what it was.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Rio

Back from CEATEC... Had fun with attending HD DVD and BDA keynote conference

BTW, I asked a rep at the HD DVD drive section in Toshiba booth, he clearly said that drives existing now and the ones that Toshiba is about to release are not able to read TL HD DVD-ROM by firmware update, since it requires hardware change (apparently this means mandatory of the spherical aberration corrector), however, those drives could read TL Twin Format disc (SL DVD-ROM + DL HD DVD-ROM).

This is very reasonable explanation. Since the first 45GB TL putting 3 layers within only 20 micrometers, it's very difficult to get "clean" signal due to the inter-layer crosstalk caused by narrow gap between layers. The limitation of the thickness comes from its 0.6mm structure, the deeper the recording layer is, the worse bit error rate becomes because of the spherical aberration.

Now, they gave up that "old" challenge, then mandate spherical aberration correction and widen the thickness for three layers to 35 micrometers to reduce crosstalk issue...

So, TL twin is the old 45GB TL structure and 51GB TL introduces a new layer separation?

Gary

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Sounds like what Tosh Japan told me over the phone, though they did say they have tried to build TL capability into the new G3 players, but I wasn't sure what to make of that as G1, G2 and the add on are incompatible.

Can G1 and G2 be upgraded to read the first two layers of a TL51?

It seems we keep hearing about the idea of using the third layer for only extras at this point.

The whole thing seems rediculous. I'm sure some deal will be in place to keep the price of these for the studios to 2x HD DVD-30. But, I can't understand why any studio would want to risk the wrath of the consumer putting out a disc that won't fully play.

Then again, you'd think the combo would have been pulled for the same reason.

Gary

[WickyWoo]

Can G1 and G2 be upgraded to read the first two layers of a TL51?

Only if they start a drive swapout program. It can't be done in software

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

Only if they start a drive swapout program. It can't be done in software

OUCH!

So, it's basically something that can't be used until the drives that theoretically can read them become massively dominant in the HD DVD players.

[WickyWoo]

I don't think anyone seriously believes at this point that TL-51 will ever see the light of commercial day, and if it does that it'll be more than a blip

[dobyblue]

Here's the translation:

Originally Posted by Toshiba

We have developed a triple layer disc that will allow an HD30 and DVD5 disc to be all on the same side even thought we can't get it working yet on any device.

How will this be used in any consumer application? We don't know. We were hoping that Universal might use DVD Shrink to fit the DVD release onto the DVD5 disc and then put the HD DVD release on the HD 30 disc.

In short ladies and gentlemen, we are well and truly ****ed.