interesting commentary on the format war

[Matt X]

...interesting commentary on the format war, look for article "Determination or Desperation?" : http://www.homemediamagazine.com/

"Now, the consensus is high-def discs won’t be a serious business until Q4 2008, and studios are anxious not to be branded the boys who cried wolf. Hence, a certain sense of desperation. One champion of HD DVD played up the fact that standard DVDs look better when played on an HD DVD player, implying consumers should buy a machine even if the HD DVD format remains the underdog.

That kind of talk is exactly what we don’t need. It only fuels consumer indifference — the same indifference that years ago sank both rival next-gen audio formats and ultimately sent music consumers online."

...sound familiar to theories on a certain "800-pound Gorilla"'s motivations in this war?

[xtop]

and it really is a shame both audio formats have all but pretty much died off.

bad news if that's what their camp is going to spread

[tiger roach]

Originally Posted by xtop

and it really is a shame both audio formats have all but pretty much died off.

I really had high hopes for SACD. It's just that for most folks, MP3 is good enough.

Video is different - anyone can appreciate the look of a movie in high-def.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by xtop

and it really is a shame both audio formats have all but pretty much died off.

bad news if that's what their camp is going to spread

And Toshiba would rather both dud and BD die than lose to the BDA.

[Matt X]

Originally Posted by tiger roach

I really had high hopes for SACD. It's just that for most folks, MP3 is good enough.

Video is different - anyone can appreciate the look of a movie in high-def.

hell, as far as audio (music) goes, after listening to some friend's rigs, I'm sold on going back to VINYL. a nice tube amp and a decent record player are in my cards someday..........(that's if I can stop buying BR's long enough to save the $$$ )

[Seretur]

Yeah, vinyl... gotta love that crackle and pop.

SACD is an amazing format, even if it's niche.

Anyway, I can't believe HD DVD crowd thinks that their gear is superior to Blu-ray even in DVD upsampling. That's just the height of delusion...

[EricJ]

Am I the only one who's NOT blaming SACD-vs-DVD-A on a "format war"?

It was in the same boat as Digital VHS:
- The non-tech public had no idea, and was never specifically told, what the upgrade was or why they should switch,
- OR why they should pay $500 for an untested piece of hardware (the first mistake most companies make with a new format), and
- The format seemed to be using DVD for a purpose nobody really intuitively used it for, just because of old studio traumas about the CD revolution.

Now, normally, this would all be a cheap parallel to Hi-Def, except for:
- The reviews for the format weren't very good,
- Hard-disk CD sales were decreasing (as opposed to movie disks, people don't buy DVD's just to watch one or two chapters)
- Portable players, carrying light and easy electronic downloads that you didn't have to stare at, went mainstream, cheap, available and saturated,
- It takes a LOT less time and effort to download a song than to download a movie, even in a now easy and legitimate format.

You can look at a hi-def movie and be sold, but being sold on hi-def audio took a heck of a lot more persuasion and niche-expertise.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by Seretur

Yeah, vinyl... gotta love that crackle and pop.

That's only a problem if you don't look after your records. I've got records 20+ years old that are as silent as the day I got them. But then I'm careful with them...

[MotionBlurr]

Originally Posted by richteer

That's only a problem if you don't look after your records. I've got records 20+ years old that are as silent as the day I got them. But then I'm careful with them...

My mother was cleaning the basement one hot day and left my records in the sun for a while. They melted. Poor me.

[Hayashi]

Originally Posted by Matt X

That kind of talk is exactly what we don’t need. It only fuels consumer indifference — the same indifference that years ago sank both rival next-gen audio formats and ultimately sent music consumers online.

Why do you think when Toshiba was gonna give up on HD-DVD back in 05 but Microsoft pushed for them to keep it... Microsoft just wants to do what Apple did with music, but its never gonna work lol.

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by EricJ

Am I the only one who's NOT blaming SACD-vs-DVD-A on a "format war"?

It was in the same boat as Digital VHS:
- The non-tech public had no idea, and was never specifically told, what the upgrade was or why they should switch,
- OR why they should pay $500 for an untested piece of hardware (the first mistake most companies make with a new format), and
- The format seemed to be using DVD for a purpose nobody really intuitively used it for, just because of old studio traumas about the CD revolution.

Now, normally, this would all be a cheap parallel to Hi-Def, except for:
- The reviews for the format weren't very good,
- Hard-disk CD sales were decreasing (as opposed to movie disks, people don't buy DVD's just to watch one or two chapters)
- Portable players, carrying light and easy electronic downloads that you didn't have to stare at, went mainstream, cheap, available and saturated,
- It takes a LOT less time and effort to download a song than to download a movie, even in a now easy and legitimate format.

You can look at a hi-def movie and be sold, but being sold on hi-def audio took a heck of a lot more persuasion and niche-expertise.

So you're saying: suppose DVD-A never existed; still SACD would never have gained mass consumer acceptance?

I tend to agree with this as it's nowadays a requirement that music be highly portable, and that means iPods not portable CD-type players. Due to DRM issues SACDs can't be ripped (their copy protection still hasn't been hacked) so you have to sit in your living room if you want to hear one. Moreover no pocket-sized player I know of is powerful enough to play DSD audio.

The days of sitting quietly at home, listening intently to an entire side of a record before (gasp!) flipping it over to hear the over side, seem to be over. Still, it looks like SACD will continue as a niche format, mainly for classical and baroque titles. Yahama announced a new SACD player last week (I don't have the link handy).

Interestingly the case is the opposite for video. There portability is not so important (witness UMD) and people are content to play the content off a disc at home.

The presence of a format war was incidental to the demise of hi-res audio, and should not scupper hi-dif video either.

[xtop]

well ever since i heard sony is waiting on providing a store similar to itunes for the ps3, why not offer 5.1 music. nobody else does. isn't there a 5.1 mp3 format? and hell..sony loves pushing that crap on everyone anyways..why not again! haha.

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by xtop

well ever since i heard sony is waiting on providing a store similar to itunes for the ps3, why not offer 5.1 music. nobody else does. isn't there a 5.1 mp3 format? and hell..sony loves pushing that crap on everyone anyways..why not again! haha.

For my part I'd love to see downloads of music mixed for surround, not mp3 but full DSD quality. Titles would never go out of print. (A major problem for anyone collecting hi-res audio right now ...)

[Grisle]

Most people don't have High Def sound systems, but nowadays more and more people have High Def TV's that is going to be the difference. People want to pay for the new HDTVs they're much more accepted than SACD or DVD-a would have ever been.

[oscar_in_fw]

Originally Posted by Grisle

Most people don't have High Def sound systems, but nowadays more and more people have High Def TV's that is going to be the difference. People want to pay for the new HDTVs they're much more accepted than SACD or DVD-a would have ever been.

Some of us do have High Def sound systems to go with that High Def TV. I'm looking forward to high def music videos with the same (or better) high resolution PCM audio available to DVD-A (e.g. Chris Botti, David Matthews on Blu-ray). Now if they could only find some way to merge high def video with 2.8M DSD....

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by oscar_in_fw

Some of us do have High Def sound systems to go with that High Def TV. I'm looking forward to high def music videos with the same (or better) high resolution PCM audio available to DVD-A (e.g. Chris Botti, David Matthews on Blu-ray). Now if they could only find some way to merge high def video with 2.8M DSD....

I'm one of those anguished souls praying for a future hi-res audio revival on the back of Blu-ray. I wonder if SACD and DVD-A simply launched too early. Once people with decent home theatre setups get used to good quality tracks with their movies maybe they will be more receptive to the joys of hi-res music.

[EricJ]

Originally Posted by Teazle

So you're saying: suppose DVD-A never existed; still SACD would never have gained mass consumer acceptance?

More a case of "...Why would it have? "

I tend to agree with this as it's nowadays a requirement that music be highly portable, and that means iPods not portable CD-type players. Due to DRM issues SACDs can't be ripped (their copy protection still hasn't been hacked) so you have to sit in your living room if you want to hear one. Moreover no pocket-sized player I know of is powerful enough to play DSD audio.

It's the mistake of every failed format:
Give us the software first that we can play without the hardware (eg., DVD's on PC, Blu-Ray on PS3), and then maybe we'll buy the hardware to give it a permanent home.
That's already the main signpost on the Boulevard of Broken Format Dreams, but that this was trying to sell us home stereo, at a time when music was going Ala Carte and portable, certainly didn't help.

The presence of a format war was incidental to the demise of hi-res audio, and should not scupper hi-dif video either.

The first grumble about our Format War was that it seemed to be "forced" on the public by electronics companies that had a Neat Idea--
And that it reflected companies' fear and panic to "create" the next Big Craze, so they could have some control over it, and so it wouldn't jaguar-leap on them unawares, like CD, DVD and iPod did.
SACD and DVD-Audio seemed like someone in a boardroom thought it would be "neat" to put music on a DVD disk, which...nobody had really asked for.

Hence, the problem with a "created" New Format Trend is, it didn't arrive naturally, and didn't fill any particular need that the public thought they had.
Same as with the hi-def format, ie., that the only people who are pushing for Blu-Ray over HD are those who have the screens to watch them, while the low-tech people who don't are wondering why....If Blu vs. HD had come out a year after widespread HDTV saturation, nobody would be asking any questions.

[xtop]

Originally Posted by Teazle

I'm one of those anguished souls praying for a future hi-res audio revival on the back of Blu-ray. I wonder if SACD and DVD-A simply launched too early. Once people with decent home theatre setups get used to good quality tracks with their movies maybe they will be more receptive to the joys of hi-res music.

thats why i think sony should push the fact the ps3 can play sacd. i'd love to get some good music in 5.1. i think with the whole high def revolution going on, both would fare a lot better

[Cream]

Originally Posted by xtop

thats why i think sony should push the fact the ps3 can play sacd. i'd love to get some good music in 5.1. i think with the whole high def revolution going on, both would fare a lot better

The 40GB PS3 has dropped SA-CD. If Sony aren't pushing it who will?

[xtop]

Originally Posted by Cream

The 40GB PS3 has dropped SA-CD. If Sony aren't pushing it who will?

that i hadn't heard. wow. i guess i'm not surprised to see it go, saves even more money. kind of a dissapointment tho. then again..i bet almost nobody uses it.

there's only a few titles i would even own, and theyre hard to find