Fantasia / Fantasia 2000 (1940-1999) (Special Edition)

[cheld]

Originally Posted by whbinder

Yes. We remember. The reason for the "slap" responses is that this issue has been discussed in very exhaustive depth on the thread. The short version is no, the 1982 track will not be included.

<sarcasm>
Yeah, 'cause Disney is forever committed to releasing the original versions of their films, especially Fantasia.
</sarcasm>

[Joe Cain]

Originally Posted by cheld

What qualifications do you have to make such an idiotic presumption?

Perhaps the poster has read a relevant Supreme Court decision.

[6AM]

Originally Posted by cheld

What qualifications do you have to make such an idiotic presumption?

I think it's idiotic to presume that a young girl of color seeing the only "person" similar to her in the movie being portrayed ugly and being subservient to the white "people" would have no affect.

[miniroll32]

... and suddenly, the thread cascades into a ridiculous argument. Nice one fellas!

[johnns]

Originally Posted by Joe Cain

I would suggest you familiarize yourself with the work of Drs. Kenneth & Mamie Clark and the role their studies played in Brown v BOE of Topeka.



For some, times have changed very little. Granted, I live in Alabama, but at a high school football game this weekend there were a whole lot of adults from the wealthiest municipality in the state loudly using the n-word in reference to the opposing team's cheerleaders. On a less anecdotal level---ten years ago there was a referendum on repealing the state's anti-miscegenation laws in the 1901 state constitution; in spite of the fact that the laws were unenforceable, 40+% of the turnout voted to keep the laws on the books.

I never said that racism does not exist anymore. But times have drastically changed. Black people are no longer subserviant to white people, as depicted in Fantasia. If someone is bothered by this element of the scene, it can be pointed out that society by in large frowns upon this practice and there's a need to look on scenes like this with an understanding of historical context. Of course that opportunity for fostering maturity won't exist with the scene being edited out of Fantasia. But I'm not really bothered. As I said in my original post, I think too much importance is placed on this scene by both those who are for and those who are against it.

[Dubstar]

I didn't realize this til I saw the uncut footage, but the offensive black centurette is actually erased from an entire scene, she unrolls the red carpet up the stairs and hides behind the chair. Since the removal of that whole scene would have screwed up the soundmix. Did Disney 'digital' erase her with computers for the home video version... so how did they do for the 1960's reissue version?

[HDMe]

Originally Posted by 6AM

I think it's idiotic to presume that a young girl of color seeing the only "person" similar to her in the movie being portrayed ugly and being subservient to the white "people" would have no affect.

Bluntly... I think it's idiotic to think so little of a "young girl of color", her intelligence, and her parents to presume that seeing such a scene in a cartoon would irrevocably scar her for life.

IF that is all it takes... then she would be in for a harsh life as no doubt she will experience far worse in public school, college, jobs, awkward teenage years, adult life, etc.

[RBBrittain]

Originally Posted by Dubstar

I didn't realize this til I saw the uncut footage, but the offensive black centurette is actually erased from an entire scene, she unrolls the red carpet up the stairs and hides behind the chair. Since the removal of that whole scene would have screwed up the soundmix. Did Disney 'digital' erase her with computers for the home video version... so how did they do for the 1960's reissue version?

I understand they zoomed in on another part of the frame to edit her out; that's been done consistently ever since Walt himself made the decision in the '60's.

[whbinder]

Originally Posted by RBBrittain

I understand they zoomed in on another part of the frame to edit her out; that's been done consistently ever since Walt himself made the decision in the '60's.

I think the question is how the footage that's been digitally scrubbed was treated earlier. Yes, the zoomed shots are the same, but not the rest of the segment which has Sunflower digitally erased.

I'm afraid I don't have an answer to how that footage was treated in the past.

Also, I have no horse in the race, but "Walt himself made the decision" is a speculative idea that is hotly debated here.

[Dubstar]

Originally Posted by whbinder

I think the question is how the footage that's been digitally scrubbed was treated earlier. Yes, the zoomed shots are the same, but not the rest of the segment which has Sunflower digitally erased.

I'm afraid I don't have an answer to how that footage was treated in the past.

Also, I have no horse in the race, but "Walt himself made the decision" is a speculative idea that is hotly debated here.

I'd have to pull out my laserdisc, but from what I've read and recall, the scene where the (first black centurette - not 'Sunflower') rolls out the red carpet up the stairs, it's cropped and only her hooves are briefly seen at the corner of the screen, every video version, since then, has erased her entirely from that specific scene.

[RBBrittain]

Originally Posted by whbinder

Also, I have no horse in the race, but "Walt himself made the decision" is a speculative idea that is hotly debated here.

We know it was originally done in the early '60's, when Walt was still alive and running the company. It certainly wasn't a Michael Eisner or Bob Iger decision.

[6AM]

Originally Posted by HDMe

Bluntly... I think it's idiotic to think so little of a "young girl of color", her intelligence, and her parents to presume that seeing such a scene in a cartoon would irrevocably scar her for life.

IF that is all it takes... then she would be in for a harsh life as no doubt she will experience far worse in public school, college, jobs, awkward teenage years, adult life, etc.

Why not just call her the n word because she's going to hear it later in life? She should be prepared.

[PowellPressburger]

I've seen the cut censored footage on youtube several times. I don't like censorship of any kind, but to be honest it really takes me out of the mood of the piece drastically. In fact it really seemed in poor taste and only makes the sequence feel out of style.

I don't like how bad the cuts look, esp when they do the zoom, but after years of wanting to see the original version, I think I will survive without the characters being restored to the film.

I think we will have to just come to the point of knowing if we want to see the footage keep a file of it from youtube. and we need to move on.

I woudl rather discuss how bare bones this release feels (BD live features? How lame) and what about never being able to get the 1982 Kostal score included somehow? I'd rather fight over those topics than the racism topic killing this thread.

[HDMe]

Originally Posted by 6AM

Why not just call her the n word because she's going to hear it later in life? She should be prepared.

Now you're just being silly and arguing apples vs oranges.

I'm talking about whitewashing history and you are talking about new insults.

IF Disney makes a new movie today and has a poor racial stereotype or racist scene, then people of all colors should complain and protest.

But a movie released years ago... should be re-released in its complete form so people can see the past and learn from it that some things are not ok.

I would NOT argue you should bring your young child to a Klan rally for her to be abused... but if she is old enough, you could certainly explain the bad people to her and prepare her by perhaps even showing her a film that reveals how some people did (and do) treat others inappropriately.

I'd argue that if you expose your child only to sugar and spice you would be doing a disservice to them. That doesn't mean you intentionally expose them to personal abuse... but you certainly don't want them thinking the world is wine and roses and have them smacked in the face by reality by surprise.

[whbinder]

Originally Posted by RBBrittain

We know it was originally done in the early '60's, when Walt was still alive and running the company. It certainly wasn't a Michael Eisner or Bob Iger decision.

Not true. And I'm not necessarily debating that it was Walt's choice. I can admit I have no knowledge of that. But the first appearance of the edited version was in 1969, three years after Walt's death. So that makes the issue of artistic intent a bit more nebulous.

Cheers.

[whbinder]

Originally Posted by PowellPressburger

I woudl rather discuss how bare bones this release feels (BD live features? How lame) and what about never being able to get the 1982 Kostal score included somehow? I'd rather fight over those topics than the racism topic killing this thread.

Yes yes! My perhaps clunky solution is to order the German Blu-rays if they do in fact have the extras on the disc instead of BD-Live. If those second discs end up being DVD copies, I may just swap those out for my existing supplemenary DVDs. As to the '82 score. I may just bust out a few bucks on eBay for the red CD set with the '82 score.

Maybe I'll rip my old DVD into Adobe Premiere to make my own fancy cut.

I wish Disney would make an easier solution.

[miniroll32]

Question is, will it be just the German releases that have previous Anthology extras on the discs? Afterall, the rest of Europe doesn't have Disney BD Live either.

[scamander]

I wonder, why do you think that the german release will get the Anthology extras on the discs? I'm sorry, but we will get just the same two Blu-rays as the rest of the world.

[whbinder]

Originally Posted by miniroll32

Question is, will it be just the German releases that have previous Anthology extras on the discs? Afterall, the rest of Europe doesn't have Disney BD Live either.

Quite true. The UK release may also include the discs, but that set comes in one box set while Germany gets separate releases for the films. Getting them in separate packages is just a personal preference. I'm sure the UK set will also be nice.

Originally Posted by scamander

I wonder, why do you think that the german release will get the Anthology extras on the discs? I'm sorry, but we will get just the same two Blu-rays as the rest of the world.

Certainly nothing is known so far. But since Europe has traditionally not received any BD-Live support from Disney in the past, the possibility has been mentioned that the extras will be on Blu-ray. The current listing for Fantasia on Amazon.de is a two disc set. It's possible this second disc is a DVD copy. We'll just have to wait until it's a little closer to release time to find out.

[Jr7936]

I just used 2 of my reward zone certificates and preordered the new fantasia set for 13 and some change after taxes. I figure after coupons it won't be cheaper since it is a 4 disc set.