Will Hi-Def transfers evolve like DVD has? - Blu-ray Forum

ironrefault · 12-13-2007, 11:37 AM

In other words, the early years of DVD (97-00) had a lot of shoddy transfers, but as the format progressed, the level of transfers became better across the board for major releases.

I'm always irked at people who say movies in HD is slightly better than upconverted DVDs. Maybe if you watch a DVD from 06-07, but the jump in quality is immediately evident compared to older DVDs.

Is is it technically possible for transfers on blu-ray to evolve, and become "better" as the format matures? Is it just a question of restoration for catalog?

HDJK · 12-13-2007, 11:45 AM

Since we have people confirming that a properly encoded BD is indistinguishable to a side by side 2k (or even 4k) projection (it was reported by some people attending a FOX demo), I think what we will be seing are more efficient codecs, meaning compression artifacts on difficult scenes (Planet Earth comes to mind) will be gone and there will be more space available for additional content and maybe even 3D. But the picture per se will probaly not get any better until we move to 2160P.

NutsAboutPS3 · 12-13-2007, 11:46 AM

I think we have already seen a leap in quality of HD releases. To some extent it depends how much effort the studio is willing to go to with older titles. As the HD market becomes bigger, it will be worth spending more money. Blade Runner is a good example of what can be achieved with a big budget restoration. For new releases, it's hard to see how things can get much better than the best new Disney and Fox releases.

WickyWoo · 12-13-2007, 04:07 PM

I think Warner has room for improvement on their HD DVD limited compressions. I don't think most of the Disney/Fox lineup will, and probably not Sony either

JJ · 12-13-2007, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

I think Warner has room for improvement on their HD DVD limited compressions. I don't think most of the Disney/Fox lineup will, and probably not Sony either

I fully agree on that one, as well - Warner is limited by 20 GB. Well, that's a fact we all already know anyway.

Whytewash · 12-13-2007, 04:25 PM

I know that we had superbit dvd back in the day and those looked great. I think that in time, we will see better picture quality overall. Not a whole lot better (as superbit was MERELY better than standard dvd) but I see it happening... Like a SuperBLUbit! haha

monkyman · 12-13-2007, 04:45 PM

I believe it is evolving while we speak, which is the reason for firmware upgrades. I believe Java still has a long way to go to reach it's potental, unlike HDi, which I think has reached it's peak.

m6bigdog · 12-13-2007, 05:07 PM

The electronics industry has yet to remain stagnant with any technology that is introduced. In the last 40 years I have lived through film, slide projectors, records, real to real tape, cassette tape, Elcette tape (sp), CD, MD, Laser Disc, VHS/Beta, SVHS, etc,

As the equipment design engineers have more time with the standard they develop optimized circuits and equipment that exploits the capability and minimize the limitations.
Video and audio compression coding and decoding schemes are an example, i.e. HD Lossless audio.

Chip design and manufacturing also give the product engineers better suite of circuit components to not only design better systems but the cost of the equipment drops.

The first DVD players were $1K remember? I paid $3.5k for the first 35" tube TV (in 1980 $'s). The SVHS recorder was $1.5k (in 1980 $'s).

Also with any consumer AV product there is the fidelity issue (your point of DVD quality) that can be optimized (better AV Digital Signal Processing recording and playback schemes) and hence the PQ and SQ gets better as the product develops while the cost decreases.

Actually, I don't think it will be that many years before the next generation of consumer AV equipment is introduced.

The technology for a Super HD format (kinda like SVHS) is already in the works, i.e, deep color and 2160p.

The cycle time on technology developments has been getting shorter.

I anticipate it will also be a backward compatible technology implementation, i.e. CD/DVD/HD vs the end of an era such as the vinyl record, audio tape, VHS tape, Laser Disc.

The best is yet to come.

bageleaterkkjji · 12-14-2007, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ironrefault

In other words, the early years of DVD (97-00) had a lot of shoddy transfers, but as the format progressed, the level of transfers became better across the board for major releases.

I'm always irked at people who say movies in HD is slightly better than upconverted DVDs. Maybe if you watch a DVD from 06-07, but the jump in quality is immediately evident compared to older DVDs.

Is is it technically possible for transfers on blu-ray to evolve, and become "better" as the format matures? Is it just a question of restoration for catalog?

they also had 10 years worth of better cameras

ironrefault · 12-14-2007, 12:31 PM

Great replies, guys. Thanks.

HDJK · 12-14-2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m6bigdog

...
Actually, I don't think it will be that many years before the next generation of consumer AV equipment is introduced.

...
The cycle time on technology developments has been getting shorter.

...
The best is yet to come.

So we do agree on something after all

But that wasn't the question of the OP

WickyWoo · 12-14-2007, 03:36 PM

I seriously do not believe that the "cycle time" gets shorter on media

Seriously

DVD was never meant to be a long term format. It was supposed to be a stopgap between VHS and highdef(back when they thought HD media was right around the corner) to replace laserdisc that took off.

The ONLY reason why they're so hot to replace DVD is because it's so easily ripped. You want to have the discs on the shelf for as long as possible, redipping the evergreens every 3-5 years on a repromote

HeavyHitter · 12-14-2007, 03:40 PM

I watched The Last Samurai on Blu-ray last night and the (non-film grain) compression artifacting and video noise was quite obvious throughout the movie. I know this was one of the first titles, but I think a title like this getting re-done to maximize Blu-ray's bandwidth and space could look quite a bit better.

johnnymech · 12-14-2007, 03:44 PM

The first movie DVDs were on single-layered discs, so some movies got compressed more than they should have been. Since space is not an issue on Blu-ray, I can't believe transfers can get any better.

Ice2Dragon · 12-14-2007, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnymech

The first movie DVDs were on single-layered discs, so some movies got compressed more than they should have been. Since space is not an issue on Blu-ray, I can't believe transfers can get any better.

Incredibly untrue.

Look at the rereleases weve had.

Full Metal Jacket to name just one.

Horrible transfer the first time.

Year later, we get a better transfer and a cooler cover.

Progress takes time

Geech · 12-15-2007, 01:55 AM

I can see some improvement on the early releases happening.

Dyana B · 12-15-2007, 02:04 AM

Technology is always evolving, so yes, I believe that Blu-ray will also evolve...
a good example... The Fifth Element (bad transfer the first time out)...

JohnGalt · 12-15-2007, 07:03 AM

To a degree but don't forget that DVD and the associated process of transferring film to a digital format was an entirely new animal and that therefore the learning curve was quite steep. Digital video was in its infancy, hardware was far less powerful, and the software was not robust or evolved. Today the industry has had many years to smooth out the initial bumps in the digital video road so I'd expect improvements to be far more rapid with HD optical media quickly reaching its performance peak.

12-13-2007, 11:37 AM	#1
ironrefault Active Member Member since:Dec 2007 Location:North Florida	Will Hi-Def transfers evolve like DVD has? In other words, the early years of DVD (97-00) had a lot of shoddy transfers, but as the format progressed, the level of transfers became better across the board for major releases. I'm always irked at people who say movies in HD is slightly better than upconverted DVDs. Maybe if you watch a DVD from 06-07, but the jump in quality is immediately evident compared to older DVDs. Is is it technically possible for transfers on blu-ray to evolve, and become "better" as the format matures? Is it just a question of restoration for catalog?

12-13-2007, 05:07 PM	#8
m6bigdog Member Member since:Jul 2007 Location:CA	The electronics industry has yet to remain stagnant with any technology that is introduced. In the last 40 years I have lived through film, slide projectors, records, real to real tape, cassette tape, Elcette tape (sp), CD, MD, Laser Disc, VHS/Beta, SVHS, etc, As the equipment design engineers have more time with the standard they develop optimized circuits and equipment that exploits the capability and minimize the limitations. Video and audio compression coding and decoding schemes are an example, i.e. HD Lossless audio. Chip design and manufacturing also give the product engineers better suite of circuit components to not only design better systems but the cost of the equipment drops. The first DVD players were $1K remember? I paid $3.5k for the first 35" tube TV (in 1980 $'s). The SVHS recorder was $1.5k (in 1980 $'s). Also with any consumer AV product there is the fidelity issue (your point of DVD quality) that can be optimized (better AV Digital Signal Processing recording and playback schemes) and hence the PQ and SQ gets better as the product develops while the cost decreases. Actually, I don't think it will be that many years before the next generation of consumer AV equipment is introduced. The technology for a Super HD format (kinda like SVHS) is already in the works, i.e, deep color and 2160p. The cycle time on technology developments has been getting shorter. I anticipate it will also be a backward compatible technology implementation, i.e. CD/DVD/HD vs the end of an era such as the vinyl record, audio tape, VHS tape, Laser Disc. The best is yet to come. Last edited by m6bigdog; 12-13-2007 at 05:11 PM.

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12-13-2007, 11:45 AM	#2
HDJK Blu-ray Guru Member since:Oct 2006 Location:Switzerland Trading Score:2	Since we have people confirming that a properly encoded BD is indistinguishable to a side by side 2k (or even 4k) projection (it was reported by some people attending a FOX demo), I think what we will be seing are more efficient codecs, meaning compression artifacts on difficult scenes (Planet Earth comes to mind) will be gone and there will be more space available for additional content and maybe even 3D. But the picture per se will probaly not get any better until we move to 2160P.

12-13-2007, 11:46 AM	#3
NutsAboutPS3 Expert Member Member since:Apr 2007 Location:UK Blu-ray reviews:1	I think we have already seen a leap in quality of HD releases. To some extent it depends how much effort the studio is willing to go to with older titles. As the HD market becomes bigger, it will be worth spending more money. Blade Runner is a good example of what can be achieved with a big budget restoration. For new releases, it's hard to see how things can get much better than the best new Disney and Fox releases.

12-13-2007, 04:07 PM	#4
WickyWoo Blu-ray Champion Member since:May 2007 Trading Score:2	I think Warner has room for improvement on their HD DVD limited compressions. I don't think most of the Disney/Fox lineup will, and probably not Sony either

12-13-2007, 04:25 PM	#6
Whytewash Special Member Member since:Mar 2007 Location:'Couve, WA Blu-ray collection:60 Blu-ray reviews:1	I know that we had superbit dvd back in the day and those looked great. I think that in time, we will see better picture quality overall. Not a whole lot better (as superbit was MERELY better than standard dvd) but I see it happening... Like a SuperBLUbit! haha

12-13-2007, 04:45 PM	#7
monkyman Special Member Member since:Jun 2007	I believe it is evolving while we speak, which is the reason for firmware upgrades. I believe Java still has a long way to go to reach it's potental, unlike HDi, which I think has reached it's peak.

12-14-2007, 12:31 PM	#10
ironrefault Active Member Member since:Dec 2007 Location:North Florida	Great replies, guys. Thanks.

12-14-2007, 03:36 PM	#12
WickyWoo Blu-ray Champion Member since:May 2007 Trading Score:2	I seriously do not believe that the "cycle time" gets shorter on media Seriously DVD was never meant to be a long term format. It was supposed to be a stopgap between VHS and highdef(back when they thought HD media was right around the corner) to replace laserdisc that took off. The ONLY reason why they're so hot to replace DVD is because it's so easily ripped. You want to have the discs on the shelf for as long as possible, redipping the evergreens every 3-5 years on a repromote

12-14-2007, 03:40 PM	#13
HeavyHitter Blu-ray Baron Member since:Jul 2007 Home Theater Gallery:4 Trading Score:154	I watched The Last Samurai on Blu-ray last night and the (non-film grain) compression artifacting and video noise was quite obvious throughout the movie. I know this was one of the first titles, but I think a title like this getting re-done to maximize Blu-ray's bandwidth and space could look quite a bit better.

12-14-2007, 03:44 PM	#14
johnnymech Active Member Member since:Nov 2007 Location:Eastern, USA 4K collection:22 Blu-ray collection:576 DVD collection:632 Blu-ray reviews:4	The first movie DVDs were on single-layered discs, so some movies got compressed more than they should have been. Since space is not an issue on Blu-ray, I can't believe transfers can get any better.

12-15-2007, 01:55 AM	#16
Geech Active Member Member since:Nov 2007 Location:Reading, PA Blu-ray reviews:2	I can see some improvement on the early releases happening.

12-15-2007, 02:04 AM	#17
Dyana B Active Member Member since:Aug 2007 4K collection:501 Blu-ray collection:2747 DVD collection:25 Blu-ray reviews: 8	Technology is always evolving, so yes, I believe that Blu-ray will also evolve... a good example... The Fifth Element (bad transfer the first time out)...

12-15-2007, 07:03 AM	#18
JohnGalt Senior Member Member since:Sep 2007 Trading Score:4	To a degree but don't forget that DVD and the associated process of transferring film to a digital format was an entirely new animal and that therefore the learning curve was quite steep. Digital video was in its infancy, hardware was far less powerful, and the software was not robust or evolved. Today the industry has had many years to smooth out the initial bumps in the digital video road so I'd expect improvements to be far more rapid with HD optical media quickly reaching its performance peak.

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