SACDs

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

That opinion is not supported by the data I've read; the CEA reported in 2007 that 40% of US households had surround sound systems hooked up to their HDTV's, up from 33% in January 2005 and 21% in 2000.

The suggestion that most audiophiles are happy with SACD is laughable when you look at the release schedule. Most audiophiles are screaming for content and not getting it.

Most people also don't laugh at you if you buy physical media, given that physical media still reigns king as the Nielsen Soundscan data posted not 5 posts before yours shows. When you compare the snatch count from the more well known torrent sites it's not even a whimper compared to the physical media sales and if CD's are declining at 20% annually the suggestion they'll be gone by 2014 (not yours) is quite amusing. My understanding of mathematics doesn't support that notion.

Highest snatch count at Waffles or What - 20,000. Movies are even less.

Originally Posted by PanaPlasma

How much % of the population is audiophile? 95% of them are babyboomers, and they don't want just another format.

There were more surround systems in 2007 as in 2011! People want to get rid of all those speakers and buy a 2.1 or soundbar right now (design, you know)! Soundquality is no longer an issue for people. They're happy with brickwalled mp3's and don't hear any difference on their ipod docks, soundbars or pc speakers.

It's sad ...

That's exactly right. I was in the "Room and Board" furniture chain today. They sell a lot of so-called "media storage cabinets". They have metal perforated doors so that remotes still work and they have holes in the back for wire management BUT almost none of them have a place for a center channel speaker! You know why? Because not that many people have a surround system.

I'm having trouble finding surround stats online, but I did find a 2010 financial report from Yamaha which said that,

"In audio products, in the wake of the financial crisis the market for AV receivers for home theater use is showing signs of a delayed recovery in the United States, the largest market. In Europe and Japan, however, there is a slight upward trend, and gentle growth is expected as the market for flat-panel TVs expands. In TV peripheral products, there is a sharp rise in Japan for front surround system products with furniture stands, which will drive the home theater market for the immediate future. In HiFi audio products, the market for conventional micro-component stereo systems is contracting, while demand for integrated units and iPod docks is increasing."

Now I don't know whether by "front surround" they mean the wide and high channels or there's a translation problem and this simply refers to the standard left and right channels hooked up to a receiver for watching TV and movies.

Furthermore, if you look at sales numbers from the CEA, the peak year for audio components (doesn't include HTIB, MP3 speaker systems or clock radios) was 1990 with $1.93b in sales. The 2011 forecast is for $1.569b, down 19% not considering inflation, but if you consider inflation, the numbers are less than half the peak.

Receiver sales (in dollars) are 30% of component sales, but only 12% of all home audio sales. Speakers are 49% of component sales, but only 20% of all home audio sales.

Also, the CEA reported in January of 2011 that flat-panel penetration was 72%, "home theatre" penetration was 36% and MP3 penetration was 51%. I'm not sure I believe those numbers, but even if you do, I would think that home theatre number means any receiver hooked up to a TV and not necessarily a surround system.

Physical audio media reigns king the same way as King George was still King of England when the U.S. declared its independence. Yes, CD units still beat digital download albums + digital download singles divided by 10, but physical units are consistently declining year after year. And yes, mathematically, a 20% decline each year doesn't mean 0 after five years, but it does mean that your business is 33% of its former size after five years and 11% of its former size after ten years. Think any investors are sticking around for that?

That's why Warner Music was just sold to Access Industries, which will also probably buy EMI in order to cut costs substantially. How much great music do you think is going to get produced when there's only three major labels: Warner/EMI, Sony/BMG and Universal?

CDs will be around for some years to come, but mostly because of inertia. But the music business overall and the CD business in particular is a dead business, dead being defined as "in substantial decline". Anyone who believes otherwise is in severe denial. And as I've posted before, I say that as someone who owns over 500 CDs, still buys them and rarely downloads anything.

But the music industry in 2009 was at only 53% of its 1999 peak, not considering inflation. If you consider inflation, it's at 40% of its peak. And while I still don't have final figures for 2010, it's since gotten worse. That does not bode well for its future unless there's a new revolution in music that gets people buying again.

So neither the music industry not the audio component industry is doing well. I wish that wasn't the case because I grew up thinking these were the two most important industries in my life, but we have to deal with that reality. For the most part, people, especially young people, are only interested in portable music and both based upon the limited sales information available, anecdotal information and observation in electronics stores, it seems to me that there's little interest in surround systems. This surprises me because you'd think someone who invests in a large-screen TV would want the complete theatre experience. Hopefully things will change when the economy picks up. Personally, I'm hoping for a new revolution in music akin to the impact of a Sinatra, Elvis, the Beatles or Springsteen, but all we seem to be able to come up with is a Lady Gaga.

[Travis]

Probably almost 10 years since I bought my first SACD, collection has been growing at a snail's pace. http://www.sa-cd.net/library/7398/1 Think Getz/Gilberto was the first.

[PanaPlasma]

Exactly, when dvd became mainstream, everyone had home theatre systems.

Now 'best case scenario' a soundbar or 2.1 HTiB. This is the sad reality ...

What happened 10 years ago with the music bussiness (rise of mp3) is now also happening for the movie industry (no more blu-ray or dvd player, but mediaplayer with illegal downloaded content). If they got a blu-ray player, it's a PS3 that they only use as game console or they got it for free with their tv.

Over here, they give them away with flatscreen tv's because nobody buys them.

[Maggot]

I'm a 44 audiophile and being around some younger people at work as well as those my age, I can tell you NONE of them want high-res audio. They are perfectly happy with downloadable content and Ipods. People want convenience these days, at least when it comes down to music. When SACD and DVD-A died off, and lets face it, they died......I was beside myself, but even back when the "war" was on between the two formats, I knew of nobody who was interested. I've demo'd SACD's/DVD-A's for people at home and they are blown away, but in the end they have no desire to get into it. Heck, people at work would wow at a pair of 60-80 dollar headphones for their Ipods, then I brought in my Grado SR-1 headphones in and plugged them into an Ipod and although people loved it and realized the difference, they were not about to invest that kind of money into a pair of headphones. People just don't listen anymore and even when they do, they just don't appreciate the special gift and value that music plays in our lives.

[Gremal]

Absolutely agree. It's a foregone conclusion that the general consumer would never get into Blu-ray Audio. The question is whether it will be the next audiophile format.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Gremal

Absolutely agree. It's a foregone conclusion that the general consumer would never get into Blu-ray Audio. The question is whether it will be the next audiophile format.

I know someone who was talking about getting rid of their BD concerts and just buying DVDs of concerts with DTS soundtracks, but still just buying movies on BD. I'd never go back to concerts on DVD. Love my BD concerts. Just one example, and really won't decide if BD-A ever takes off.

I'll buy BD-A discs, but guessing most won't. This as well as the plague of MP3's, I'd guess most BD owners won't bother with BD-A. Also the Blu-Spec CDs that are out are not helping, may cause some confusion as to why these "Blu-ray CDs" aren't any better than a normal CD.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by Maggot

I'm a 44 audiophile and being around some younger people at work as well as those my age, I can tell you NONE of them want high-res audio. They are perfectly happy with downloadable content and Ipods. People want convenience these days, at least when it comes down to music. When SACD and DVD-A died off, and lets face it, they died......I was beside myself, but even back when the "war" was on between the two formats, I knew of nobody who was interested. I've demo'd SACD's/DVD-A's for people at home and they are blown away, but in the end they have no desire to get into it. Heck, people at work would wow at a pair of 60-80 dollar headphones for their Ipods, then I brought in my Grado SR-1 headphones in and plugged them into an Ipod and although people loved it and realized the difference, they were not about to invest that kind of money into a pair of headphones. People just don't listen anymore and even when they do, they just don't appreciate the special gift and value that music plays in our lives.

Yep. I'm 27 and notice the same thing at work. Except my one 20 year old friend whom I've introduced to vinyl, nobody I know cares about high fidelity audio. They all listen to ipods and are shocked that I have a record player at all. It forced me to listen critically to music instead of having it in the background, and my appreciation of music is all the greater for it.

[Dwayne]

Originally Posted by Maggot

I'm a 44 audiophile and being around some younger people at work as well as those my age, I can tell you NONE of them want high-res audio. They are perfectly happy with downloadable content and Ipods. People want convenience these days, at least when it comes down to music. When SACD and DVD-A died off, and lets face it, they died......I was beside myself, but even back when the "war" was on between the two formats, I knew of nobody who was interested. I've demo'd SACD's/DVD-A's for people at home and they are blown away, but in the end they have no desire to get into it. Heck, people at work would wow at a pair of 60-80 dollar headphones for their Ipods, then I brought in my Grado SR-1 headphones in and plugged them into an Ipod and although people loved it and realized the difference, they were not about to invest that kind of money into a pair of headphones. People just don't listen anymore and even when they do, they just don't appreciate the special gift and value that music plays in our lives.

Im 50 and agree 100%. Todays generation (not all) is completely satisfied with quantity over quality when it comes to music. Our or my generation grew up when music was KING and video was just ok. Now when both are almost perfected still the youth would rather listen to i-pods. Myself will pray that BD audio takes off and does not die like all other audio formats that sounded great.

[Louisville Slugger]

Originally Posted by Dwayne

Im 50 and agree 100%. Todays generation (not all) is completely satisfied with quantity over quality when it comes to music. Our or my generation grew up when music was KING and video was just ok. Now when both are almost perfected still the youth would rather listen to i-pods. Myself will pray that BD audio takes off and does not die like all other audio formats that sounded great.

I'll be turning 24 in August and love hi-res audio. I have numerous jazz SACDs and a few Blu-ray audio discs. I even listen to some of my dad's old vinyl. I agree with you about people not "listening" to music anymore. In today's fast paced society who has the time? People prefer to listen to music while driving home from work, while working out at the gym, etc. I haven't listened on my iPod in a while, and I make time ever day to listen to music on my system at home. It's definitely worth it even though my system is not anything spectacular.

[zicmubleu]

Originally Posted by Dwayne

Im 50 and agree 100%. Todays generation (not all) is completely satisfied with quantity over quality when it comes to music. Our or my generation grew up when music was KING and video was just ok. Now when both are almost perfected still the youth would rather listen to i-pods. Myself will pray that BD audio takes off and does not die like all other audio formats that sounded great.

While in general your statement maybe true, the only reason people are satisfied with quantity over quality is that they have not been exposed to quality thoroughly enough. It isn't sufficient to simply demo your home system to a friend to convince them that there is more to be heard. It takes time to learn to listen to the details of music and probably you need to be listening to something you really enjoy to really get into that detail.

With six billion people in the world you don't necessarily have to have a large share of the market to be successful so let's hope the niche market will be enough to keep quality formats alive. I prefer to buy a CD and copy it to a disc to play in my car, certainly not the high end way to listen to music but I will buy a Hybrid SACD or Dual-disc DVD-A when the choice is available at a reasonable price since my DV-49A will handle them, those SHM-CDs seem to be a bit too costly. With BD-A I have a feeling I won't be able to copy a disc to play in my car which is a deterrent for me.

I would be interested in the FLAC downloads but that process seems to be quite complicated, need high end audio cards, special streaming players, you won't find me buying an Oppo-95 anytime soon, etc. I am beginning to understand why vinyl has made a resurgence, the simplicity of playing your music without having to continually update your software, debug quirks in your wireless network, figure out what codec to use, etc. is too much.

[Pondosinatra]

Originally Posted by singhcr

Yep. I'm 27 and notice the same thing at work. Except my one 20 year old friend whom I've introduced to vinyl, nobody I know cares about high fidelity audio. They all listen to ipods and are shocked that I have a record player at all. It forced me to listen critically to music instead of having it in the background, and my appreciation of music is all the greater for it.

But the sad thing is new releases are still being sold on Vinyl. My sister in-law just picked up the new album by Florence and the Machine. Will it ever be available on SACD? Nope. But hey, at least I can listen to Steely Dan on SACD (sarcasm).

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by Pondosinatra

But the sad thing is new releases are still being sold on Vinyl. My sister in-law just picked up the new album by Florence and the Machine. Will it ever be available on SACD? Nope. But hey, at least I can listen to Steely Dan on SACD (sarcasm).

I wouldn't say that it's sad that there are still new releases on vinyl, but I can understand your frustration. I like vinyl primarily for its stellar sound quality, but the cover and liner art is also quite fun as well. I think SACD's are the best compromise overall, as it is backwards compatible with CD, has the same sound quality as an LP and won't degrade. The downside is that you don't get the same artwork as you would with an LP, but overall it's a better choice.

What annoys me is that many new vinyl releases just stick the 44.1/16 CD master on the record, which totally defeats the purpose of the vinyl release! I got the new Alter Bridge album on LP, my brother already had the CD. Aside from the larger artwork, the sound quality was the same as the CD. If I have no increase in fidelity, I'd rather have the CD.

[zicmubleu]

Originally Posted by singhcr

I wouldn't say that it's sad that there are still new releases on vinyl, but I can understand your frustration. I like vinyl primarily for its stellar sound quality, but the cover and liner art is also quite fun as well. I think SACD's are the best compromise overall, as it is backwards compatible with CD, has the same sound quality as an LP and won't degrade. The downside is that you don't get the same artwork as you would with an LP, but overall it's a better choice.

What annoys me is that many new vinyl releases just stick the 44.1/16 CD master on the record, which totally defeats the purpose of the vinyl release! I got the new Alter Bridge album on LP, my brother already had the CD. Aside from the larger artwork, the sound quality was the same as the CD. If I have no increase in fidelity, I'd rather have the CD.

I think you're referencing hybrid SACD, and along that note, do the SHM SACDs come in hybrid form? I assumed they were pure SACD without the standard CD layer but then I have not researched them. Kind of pricey but some of the titles are tempting.

[PanaPlasma]

Warner Music Japan, sacd-announcement:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...d.php?t=252527

[WPCR-14165] The Eagles Hotel California
[WPCR-14166] Deep Purple Machine Head
[WPCR-14167] Yes Fragile
[WPCR-14168] Chicago Chicago V
[WPCR-14169] Linda Ronstadt What's New

The price will be ¥3,200. Those will be hybrid discs, including a multichannel mix.

This batch is set to come out on 8/17."

[ManUtd]

Originally Posted by PanaPlasma

Warner Music Japan, sacd-announcement:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...d.php?t=252527

[WPCR-14165] The Eagles Hotel California
[WPCR-14166] Deep Purple Machine Head
[WPCR-14167] Yes Fragile
[WPCR-14168] Chicago Chicago V
[WPCR-14169] Linda Ronstadt What's New

The price will be ¥3,200. Those will be hybrid discs, including a multichannel mix.

This batch is set to come out on 8/17."

¥3,200 is roughly $40, not bad. Anyone know the approximate shipping costs? I have the first three titles in DVD-A and would like to compare them to their corresponding SACD versions.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by zicmubleu

I think you're referencing hybrid SACD, and along that note, do the SHM SACDs come in hybrid form? I assumed they were pure SACD without the standard CD layer but then I have not researched them. Kind of pricey but some of the titles are tempting.

Yeah, I was talking about hybrid SACD's. I believe the majority of releases were hybrids.

[PTplayers]

Originally Posted by PanaPlasma

Warner Music Japan, sacd-announcement:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...d.php?t=252527

[WPCR-14165] The Eagles Hotel California
[WPCR-14166] Deep Purple Machine Head
[WPCR-14167] Yes Fragile
[WPCR-14168] Chicago Chicago V
[WPCR-14169] Linda Ronstadt What's New

The price will be ¥3,200. Those will be hybrid discs, including a multichannel mix.

This batch is set to come out on 8/17."

Originally Posted by ManUtd

¥3,200 is roughly $40, not bad. Anyone know the approximate shipping costs? I have the first three titles in DVD-A and would like to compare them to their corresponding SACD versions.

Man there is a allot to choose from and what gets me is why cant we get them over here .

I would love Dire Straits "Love over Gold " plus a few more .

[doctorsteve]

With My launch 20GB PS3 dead, I've had to retire my SACDs... Don't know if I'm interested in getting a new player just for SACD playback.

However, I'm going to attempt to re-flux my PS3 to see if I can resurrect it from the YLOD. If unsuccessful, I may be selling my small collection.

With releases from Pink Floyd on the horizon, I'm curious to see if Blu-Audio will get a shot in the arm (in terms of sales and recognition) - and to see if more SACD catalog titles will be ported over.

What is the max ability of a SACD vs a Blu disc???

Doc

[doctorsteve]

Originally Posted by PanaPlasma

The problem is, nobody has surround systems or stereo systems anymore.

It's true, nobody has surround systems anymore. At All. Anywhere.

Most audiophiles are 50+ (and no 20 y.o. geeks) and don't want to invest in a new format (blu-ray) and hate "downloads" (hi res files etc.). They want booklets etc. They're happy with sacd and vinyl.

Fortunately, many people graduate to better quality as they get older.

They start with Ripple, graduate to box wine, then bottles with actual corks whose names they can't pronounce.

Swisher Sweets, Dutch masters, Dominicans or even some Cubans.

Middle-of-the road quality downloads are the new 'norm'. As the technology recognition spreads - and the availability of Hi-def video AND audio becomes more visible to J6P, I am still confident that Audio interest will increase too.

Many people said at the beginning of 'The War' that DVD was just fine. They didn't want and didn't need anything better. As people have acclimated to the technology - the growth continues and I expect as people realize audio is available too, so will interest in Hi-def Audio.

Doc

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by doctorsteve

With My launch 20GB PS3 dead, I've had to retire my SACDs... Don't know if I'm interested in getting a new player just for SACD playback.

However, I'm going to attempt to re-flux my PS3 to see if I can resurrect it from the YLOD. If unsuccessful, I may be selling my small collection.

With releases from Pink Floyd on the horizon, I'm curious to see if Blu-Audio will get a shot in the arm (in terms of sales and recognition) - and to see if more SACD catalog titles will be ported over.

What is the max ability of a SACD vs a Blu disc???

Doc

Obviously give fixing the PS3 a shot if you desperately want it back, but in my experience once a YLOD shows up, the problem will eventually return and finally kill your system. SACD is making a remarkable comeback right now with a plethora of exciting announcements, so you might want to investigate a cheap SACD player. Sony has several different BD players at various prices levels that also happen to play SACD quite well.