"What's all that stuff on the picture?" "That's GRAIN."

[krazeyeyez]

my thought is what kinda movies do u own......hi def.....why....technology advanced......as more, younger generations of directors appear we will see more of grain free movies, i will watch a movie with grain, i would prefer without, and if they dont have the tech to remove grain without sacrificing PQ then someone needs to make it, and directors need to advance with the tech.

another important thing is even if the film was SUPPOSED to be grainy, ahem 300, it was in fact made for the theatre on such a scale that there is no comparison to "most" home systems, i never heard my buddies complain or even mention the grain after seeing it at the theatre. but what do u think is the first thing said by EVERYONE and i mean it hasnt failed yet, when i show 300 on my tv with blu, GRAIN comments/questions....complaints lol...."whats wrong with your tv.....this is hidef etc..... u can say they are uneducated or dont understand it but if they ever want this to become the next step in home viewed movies they cant cater to just "movie snobs" or "internet junkies" who "appreciate it" especially with the cost of the tv the blu the sound system etc.....all to get a picture that bugs the hell out of a large majority of people. imo grain makes me feel like i have a hidef movie going on behind a old dvd's quality noise, and a sense of "i just got screwed by buying this". the pro grain argument reminds me of my grandma and the way she preferred records with the pops and cracks and outdated tech

[Getus]

Originally Posted by krazeyeyez

my thought is what kinda movies do u own......hi def.....why....technology advanced......as more, younger generations of directors appear we will see more of grain free movies, i will watch a movie with grain, i would prefer without, and if they dont have the tech to remove grain without sacrificing PQ then someone needs to make it, and directors need to advance with the tech.

another important thing is even if the film was SUPPOSED to be grainy, ahem 300, it was in fact made for the theatre on such a scale that there is no comparison to "most" home systems, i never heard my buddies complain or even mention the grain after seeing it at the theatre. but what do u think is the first thing said by EVERYONE and i mean it hasnt failed yet, when i show 300 on my tv with blu, GRAIN comments/questions....complaints lol...."whats wrong with your tv.....this is hidef etc..... u can say they are uneducated or dont understand it but if they ever want this to become the next step in home viewed movies they cant cater to just "movie snobs" or "internet junkies" who "appreciate it" especially with the cost of the tv the blu the sound system etc.....all to get a picture that bugs the hell out of a large majority of people. imo grain makes me feel like i have a hidef movie going on behind a old dvd's quality noise, and a sense of "i just got screwed by buying this". the pro grain argument reminds me of my grandma and the way she preferred records with the pops and cracks and outdated tech

Well i agree! I payed much for my 1080p tv, my onkyo 705 and ps3. And quess what?! the first film i watched was 300! i saw it in theather and i loved it! When i saw it at home on blu i was verry disapointed. Because of the grain. I perfer it to be left out. But after doing some researsch on grain i started to accept it. a couple of weeks later i went to the movie theather. i noticed the grain straight away. but i was not botherd by it.
at my "home theather" i learned to accept it.

My point is the same as krazeyeyez.

[mhafner]

Originally Posted by krazeyeyez

another important thing is even if the film was SUPPOSED to be grainy, ahem 300, it was in fact made for the theatre on such a scale that there is no comparison to "most" home systems,

In theaters you have a bigger screen where the grain is more magnified than at home. On the other hand if you watch a print you get softer grain than on good HD because prints have less HF content. If you watch 2K DLP in the cinema the grain is there like with HD. Overall the grain is there in the cinema as it is on HD, sometimes softer and sometimes the same. If people don't see it it's their perception, not what there really is to see.

[krazeyeyez]

im not claiming there is no reasonable explanation, but most people are not gonna hop on the net, scrounge through forums etc.. to figure out what the problem is.....and then constantly research every blu they buy to ensure pq, aq, transfer quality, and a lack of grain...... grain free movies are more likely to bring the everyday joe shmo into the blu fold and grainy movies are more likely to make people think they are better off with upgraded dvd and turn them off to hidef movies. i know when i watch a dvd i dont pay as much attention to detail as i do in a blu, and when i notice stuff like grain (when its just overwhelming as in 300) it ruins the whole movie experience for me.

[Midnightsailor]

Originally Posted by thegline

An actual quote from someone hanging over my shoulder watching a movie ("Wings of Honneamise") remastered for Blu-ray. He didn't think the film grain was actually part of the image: he thought it was evidence that this HD stuff wasn't all that at and a bag of chips.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this? I worry that in a couple of years people are going to think film grain is this horrible intolerable eyesore, the way some people seemed to think black-and-white film was "missing" something and had to have color applied to it to be worth watching.

I just experienced this actually. Some dude that I know thought the grain were pixels.

[Blu Blur]

Age old complaint, it really comes down to opinion. I don't think it's possible to remove 100% of the film grain but with the HD era starting it's stride it would seem these classic film nuances will be frowned upon. As far as B&W vs Color I think the film should be left in it's original coloring, it does alot for the atmosphere of the film.

[blujacket]

Originally Posted by Getus

Well i agree! I payed much for my 1080p tv, my onkyo 705 and ps3. And quess what?! the first film i watched was 300! i saw it in theather and i loved it! When i saw it at home on blu i was verry disapointed. Because of the grain. I perfer it to be left out. But after doing some researsch on grain i started to accept it. a couple of weeks later i went to the movie theather. i noticed the grain straight away. but i was not botherd by it.
at my "home theather" i learned to accept it.

My point is the same as krazeyeyez.

I can't believe you didn't notice the grain in 300 at the theater. I saw a DLP showing and it was way more noticeable than on a smaller home screen.

[gre8t1]

i hate grain.. i feel that it takes away from thr hd feel. but reading forums i have come to understand it. i have about 20 blu cases some have grain some dont. i see alot of people talkn about film and video. i understand the difference i think.. anyone correct me if im wrong.

ultraviolet = video wich could mean very little or no grain

black hawk down = film wich can have little to a lot of grain

[thegline]

Originally Posted by gre8t1

ultraviolet = video wich could mean very little or no grain

black hawk down = film wich can have little to a lot of grain

That's about right -- it's an aesthetic decision on the part of the director, and these days they can make those kinds of choices with impunity if the money is there (and it typically is).

As I was reading the messages in this thread, I thought of another parallel: maybe someday film grain will be seen in the same light as analog tape hiss -- something the CD revealed quite nakedly but which was generally buried under the surface noise of the vinyl LP. As long as it's seen as an artifact of its era, and not something that must be done away with at all costs....

[Kayne314]

Originally Posted by thegline

That's about right -- it's an aesthetic decision on the part of the director, and these days they can make those kinds of choices with impunity if the money is there (and it typically is).

As I was reading the messages in this thread, I thought of another parallel: maybe someday film grain will be seen in the same light as analog tape hiss -- something the CD revealed quite nakedly but which was generally buried under the surface noise of the vinyl LP. As long as it's seen as an artifact of its era, and not something that must be done away with at all costs....

Very good point. In modern films it will become less and less noticeable. Existing films should be left as is.

[Rustmonsteru]

Originally Posted by thegline

An actual quote from someone hanging over my shoulder watching a movie ("Wings of Honneamise") remastered for Blu-ray. He didn't think the film grain was actually part of the image: he thought it was evidence that this HD stuff wasn't all that at and a bag of chips.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this? I worry that in a couple of years people are going to think film grain is this horrible intolerable eyesore, the way some people seemed to think black-and-white film was "missing" something and had to have color applied to it to be worth watching.

I was showing my Uncle my new 52" XBR4 at Christmas and he wouldn't believe me that what I was showing him (Blade Runner) was actually HD. I think a lot of people expect all HD to look like a completely computer rendered Pixar movie. to them. Let's hope we don't get soft DNR ridden transfers once these people start crying in greater numbers.

[thegline]

Originally Posted by Rustmonsteru

I was showing my Uncle my new 52" XBR4 at Christmas and he wouldn't believe me that what I was showing him (Blade Runner) was actually HD. I think a lot of people expect all HD to look like a completely computer rendered Pixar movie. to them. Let's hope we don't get soft DNR ridden transfers once these people start crying in greater numbers.

And considering how much BR was agonized over in the remastering process ...

Well, I've also come to accept that many people simply don't know what to look for or what it represents when it comes to these things.

Me, I love film grain. Even when it "shouldn't" be there, I love it; it makes movies look that much more dreamlike, more like a painting and less like a photo, and sometimes that's exactly what you want.

(Note that again I'm not positing an argument here against digital restoration. I like the fact that people slave for hours to get rid of dust and scratches and debris and splice lines; I just think there's a limit to how much needs to be "fixed", and how much is simply the way things are.)

[Cruyff14]

Film is made of grains. If you remove them or smooth the picture, you will also remove all the fine detail.

I think a lot of people actually confuse noise or digital artifacts with grain. A big problem imo is that a good number of people are watching their movies on TVs with the contrast set way too high or with dynamic gamma or other dynamic "enhancements" turned on. Dynamic "enhancements" and setting the contrast too high introduce artifacts that will not be seen on a properly calibrated (to D65) set.

[tilallr1]

I think the problem is this ... with worser quality, grain isn't noticed that much. Also with, smaller screen size, grain is hardly noticable. Now, put someone who is used to watching 300 (DVD) on a 21" CRT screen in front of a HD Widescreen TV of 56" with the Blu-ray version of 300 and the grain will now just jump off the screen at them. Its now impossible NOT to notice it. The bigger the screen and the higher the quality the more people notice imperfections.

But if you think that is bad, wait until they see dirt and other artifacting off DVD upconverts on your huge widescreen TV. Blu (HD) will suddenely look alot less sour, and be preferred.

[weazel]

The grainy picture in some movies was driving me insane,as you all know some movies look fantastic others(300,oceans 13) look like crap.After reading multiple forums,and thankfully realizing it wasn't my setup(Bravia/bdp-s300)heres what i have done(for problem movies only),in your tv picture settings menu change the NOISE REDUCTION setting to HIGH,then adjust sharpness setting down to about 1/4. This has greatly improved the picture and stopped me banging my head against the wall,hope this helps some of you.
Cheers
Dave

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by thegline

Me, I love film grain. Even when it "shouldn't" be there, I love it; it makes movies look that much more dreamlike, more like a painting and less like a photo, and sometimes that's exactly what you want.

I popped in 28 Days, then spent an hour freaking out that my player and/or TV had smoked. Switched to the other rig, same thing...I could have sworn the disc had some voodoo file on it that burned the guts out of my electronics.

Then I went to some reviews, saw it was filmed that way, and lost my temper.

Film grain is like rust on a vintage fighter plane.

[GTP]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I popped in 28 Days, then spent an hour freaking out that my player and/or TV had smoked. Switched to the other rig, same thing...I could have sworn the disc had some voodoo file on it that burned the guts out of my electronics.

Then I went to some reviews, saw it was filmed that way, and lost my temper.

Film grain is like rust on a vintage fighter plane.

It was filmed to look as if somome filmed it on an everyday camcorder.
28 Weeks later looks much better as far as eye candy goes.

[Gremal]

Why are people having such a hard time with this. HD is about RESOLUTION, not grain or artifacts. If you want to watch film without grain, lotsa luck, but don't upgrade to HDTV with the expectation that all noise and artifacts are eliminated. Expect that your resolution will more than double from NTSC to 1080p. You CAN appreciate this improvement even if there is grain and other noise in the picture.

So quit whining about grain!

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by GTP

It was filmed to look as if somome filmed it on an everyday camcorder.
28 Weeks later looks much better as far as eye candy goes.

I bought them both on the same purchase, and was so ticked off I haven't opened 28 Weeks Later yet.

I saw 28 Days on a DVD rental a while back, enjoyed it very much. Didn't notice the crappy image - but it was on a 36" tube. Looks normal there.

[VenomXR8]

isnt it funny that the best selling hd movie is the one with proberly the most grain (intentional by the way and I love it) of all hd movies.