Fox and DTS HD-MA

[DaViD Boulet]

I disagree with all points, Dolby 640 is more than a match for DTS 1536.

Your ears and mine do indeed disagree. My ears consistently prefer DTS at 1500+ over Dolby at 640.

Not to mention it's more compatible with many more setups.

Any consumer with HD media like Blu-ray is likely to have a decoder that can handle the DTS core.

DD and TrueHD offer late night options DTS does not as well.

One of the reasons many audiophile's prefer DTS's "less is more" approach with audiophile sound reproduction.

Plus DTS' method of a core, followed by a HD extension, followed finally by the MA lossless data is needlessly complicated, CPU intensive, and more subject to errors (Die Hard 2). With TrueHD you have a companion Dolby Digital track, and that's it.

To Craig's point, what does it matter how the algorim is accomplishing the goal? The end result is both provide lossless when fully decoded, and both provide a legacy stream for SPDIF listeners. DTS can do it with less bandwidth given the requirement on BD for TrueHD to bundle a companion DD stream.

Did anyone really hear a difference with Close Encounters?
Probably the millions of PS3 owners who can actually access the TrueHD track.

And Millions of PS3 owners will enjoy the DTS-HD MA once they get their update. Then we can compare. The fact that I hear differences between the PCM and TrueHD on many Sony discs leads me curious about what we might or might not hear comparing the "bit for bit lossless" playback of TrueHD and DTS-HD MA.

The PS3 has done TrueHD since day one. Full Dolby Digital Plus (7.1) was the recent update.

My bad. I thought it was added when DVD upscaling was added (I didn't have HDMI before then)

DTS-MA on the PS3 has been a rumor since day one...one of the PS3 developers at CES was exasperated by people asking him this, explaining that it's up to Sony Corp and DTS, not them.

Paidgeek stated that it was coming in early '08. Not a rumor.

[ryoohki]

The only diff in Sony TrueHD and PCM tracks are 5db. So you have to level them out. Just like DTS and DD are not of the same level and people think they are a lot better while in reality they are really close. There's a difference, but not as high as DTS make it sound to be. Sony use no Metadata in their TrueHD. thus the file is just a ZIPPED pcm file.

[DaViD Boulet]

The only diff in Sony TrueHD and PCM tracks are 5db. So you have to level them out. Just like DTS and DD are not of the same level and people think they are a lot better while in reality they are really close. There's a difference, but not as high as DTS make it sound to be. Sony use no Metadata in their TrueHD. thus the file is just a ZIPPED pcm file.

if there is any level difference between the TrueHD compressed/decoded signal and the PCM original, then dialog-normalization processing or some other amplitude-recalculation has taken place. With a digital audio signal, this means ever data-point has been recalculated rendering bit-for-bit accuracy impossible.

It's one reason why we've pushed for Sony to not apply DN to their TrueHD tracks.

[ryoohki]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

if there is any level difference between the TrueHD compressed/decoded signal and the PCM original, then dialog-normalization processing or some other amplitude-recalculation has taken place. With a digital audio signal, this means ever data-point has been recalculated rendering bit-for-bit accuracy impossible.

It's one reason why we've pushed for Sony to not apply DN to their TrueHD tracks.

Well yeah but studio master are altered for Home Theater anyway so nodoby know the exact sound level. Same with CD. The only thing we know is that DTS mix their track about 5db louder than DD witch is the real one nobody knows..

But anyway. personnally i don't care i want loseless in TrueHD , PCM or DTSHD MA on all my movies even if they are from 1920

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Your ears and mine do indeed disagree. My ears consistently prefer DTS at 1500+ over Dolby at 640.

There's only a handful of tracks to compare...which ones are you citing?

Any consumer with HD media like Blu-ray is likely to have a decoder that can handle the DTS core.

Possibly. There's also the PS3 owner and the fact that a lot of TVs can take a AC-3 signal over HDMI.

One of the reasons many audiophile's prefer DTS's "less is more" approach with audiophile sound reproduction.

Which is precisely why it shouldn't be the only track on the disc. I work some late nights. I'd like to watch things like The Day After Tomorrow or other Fox discs without constantly reaching for the volume control. This isn't an issue with TrueHD discs... Late Night: HIGH = Spider-Man 2 in surround at 1AM.

To Craig's point, what does it matter how the algorim is accomplishing the goal? The end result is both provide lossless when fully decoded, and both provide a legacy stream for SPDIF listeners. DTS can do it with less bandwidth given the requirement on BD for TrueHD to bundle a companion DD stream.

A: The bandwidth difference is negligible or actually in Dolby's favor (TrueHD at 24-bit is typically 4-5 mbps add in a 640kbps track and you're still below the 6+ mbps I typically see for DTS-MA.

B: PC's don't have the horsepower to do this easily. Cyberlink has been working with DTS for a LONG time to do this. AVC/VC-1 are already demanding, and add in DTS-MA you bring even the fastest Core2 processors to their knees.

And Millions of PS3 owners will enjoy the DTS-HD MA once they get their update. Then we can compare. The fact that I hear differences between the PCM and TrueHD on many Sony discs leads me curious about what we might or might not hear comparing the "bit for bit lossless" playback of TrueHD and DTS-HD MA.

See my next reply (separate post)

Paidgeek stated that it was coming in early '08. Not a rumor.

Didn't he say "they're working on it"? No timetable AFAIK.

[turboLAZER]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Your ears and mine do indeed disagree. My ears consistently prefer DTS at 1500+ over Dolby at 640.



Any consumer with HD media like Blu-ray is likely to have a decoder that can handle the DTS core.



One of the reasons many audiophile's prefer DTS's "less is more" approach with audiophile sound reproduction.




To Craig's point, what does it matter how the algorim is accomplishing the goal? The end result is both provide lossless when fully decoded, and both provide a legacy stream for SPDIF listeners. DTS can do it with less bandwidth given the requirement on BD for TrueHD to bundle a companion DD stream.



And Millions of PS3 owners will enjoy the DTS-HD MA once they get their update. Then we can compare. The fact that I hear differences between the PCM and TrueHD on many Sony discs leads me curious about what we might or might not hear comparing the "bit for bit lossless" playback of TrueHD and DTS-HD MA.



My bad. I thought it was added when DVD upscaling was added (I didn't have HDMI before then)




Paidgeek stated that it was coming in early '08. Not a rumor.

i agree with you David. If we have to take this to the streets I got your back. my pioneer vsx-1015tx doesn't have an HDMI connection, so i am forced to live with 1500kbps or 640kbps for now. my ears prefer the clarity of the DTS core 1500kbps. and one day when i upgrade my receiver i'm sure i'll enjoy both lossless codecs equally.