3D/2D Displays that support 3D & 2D & 24p at multiplies of the original frame rate

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Lee Christie

I was doing some reaserch and googled this TV:

Toshiba 52Z3030DB

It says 100Hz, 24 FPS 5:5 Pull Down.

Is it just me or wouldn't that be 20 FPS?

One can not trust every thing they read on the Internet. The US versions of the Toshiba uses a 3:2 pulldown process with a 120HZ refresh rate for 1080P/24 material. Yes your right 5:5 pulldown would be 120HZ. Since this is a 100HZ model 4:4 at 96HZ would be more realistic. This has to be a misprint on the website. The set most likely is just like the US Toshiba and a 3:2 pulldown process might be used.

[HDTV1080P]

The list has been updated and I edited the following post regarding NuVision.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=516903&postcount=325

[Lee Christie]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

One can not trust every thing they read on the Internet. The US versions of the Toshiba uses a 3:2 pulldown process with a 120HZ refresh rate for 1080P/24 material. Yes your right 5:5 pulldown would be 120HZ. Since this is a 100HZ model 4:4 at 96HZ would be more realistic. This has to be a misprint on the website. The set most likely is just like the US Toshiba and a 3:2 pulldown process might be used.

I don't see 100Hz being good for 24p, so do us Brits even get a 120Hz TV at all or do we only get 100Hz at best? If there are 120Hz TVs here, I bet they're four times as expensive as in the US.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Lee Christie

I don't see 100Hz being good for 24p, so do us Brits even get a 120Hz TV at all or do we only get 100Hz at best? If there are 120Hz TVs here, I bet they're four times as expensive as in the US.

What needs to be done for countries that are on PAL 50HZ is to have a company make a display that refreshs at 100HZ for 50HZ video and 96HZ for 1080P/24. Technically it would be possible but expensive to make a 120HZ display for worldwide markets. Such a ideal display would refresh NTSC 60HZ material at 120HZ, refresh 1080P/24 material at 120HZ or 96HZ, and then refresh PAL 50HZ at 100HZ. The big question is will any company make such a product in a flat panel? Such a product might show up in a front projector one day.
There is a strong possibility that the Sony European 100HZ LCD screens might refresh 1080P/24 at 96HZ. There are a lot of Front projectors that work on 220/110 volts and do NTSC/PAL with 1080P/24 at 96HZ or 120HZ. PAL is still processed at 50HZ instead of 100HZ.

[Lee Christie]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

What needs to be done for countries that are on PAL 50HZ is to have a company make a display that refreshs at 100HZ for 50HZ video and 96HZ for 1080P/24.

Okay I see... so there would be two refresh modes, 100Hz, and 96Hz on the same display and it uses whichever is a multiple of the input.

Newbie question here...

But if that's possible (two refresh rate supported in one TV), why don't say (picking an example here) 60Hz TVs switch to 48Hz when given a 24p input instead of doing a pull down? That would eliminate judder without having to go to 120Hz (or 96Hz).

I had assumed the reason was that they had to pick ONE refresh rate and stick with it, emulating others with pull down but if you're saying they can have multiple native refresh rates then I must be wrong.

[Sonar5]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Many displays have an info button on the remote that shows the type of signal it receives. To my knowledge Your display is either converting 24HZ to 60HZ or 48HZ. Most likely 60HZ. The manual is not clear on the refresh rate when 1080P/24 signal is applied. This brand will remain off the list for now.

Ok, I did a little more research on my set today and here is what I found.

I think it may be 24hz.

My PS3 is set to 24, and is connected via HDMI directly to my Olevia 247TFHD, when I watched Pirates curse in Blu-Ray it showed the following:

HDMI1
1920 x 1080
24hz

Now, after watching that one, we put in Pirates Dead man DVD (SD), and it showed this:

HDMI1
1080p 60hz

NOTE: On a standard DVD it says 1080p 60hz (I'm thinking the upconvert)
On a Blu-Ray Shows 1920 x 1080 24hz. (Might actually be 24hz)

If it was not 24hz, both connections are still the same HDMI, the only difference is the content, one being a DVD, one being a Blu-Ray. If it was 60, then why without any input from me, would it show 1920 x 1080 24hz on HDMI during blu-ray playback on the same PS3 HDMI Connection.

I did read somewhere else that at CES someone saw a NEW 247TFHD to be released later this year with 3 hdmi ports, same model #, and 120hz. Doesn't explain my set, but I find all of this quite odd.....

I bought mine day before Thanksgiving, 2 HDMI Ports. Very New set.

I guess I could fire off an email to Olevia, or I could take a picture of both screen demonstrating what I mean.

If you have any other suggestions, I'm happy to try, short of unscrewing the back and digging inside.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Sonar5

Ok, I did a little more research on my set today and here is what I found.

I think it may be 24hz.

My PS3 is set to 24, and is connected via HDMI directly to my Olevia 247TFHD, when I watched Pirates curse in Blu-Ray it showed the following:

HDMI1
1920 x 1080
24hz

Now, after watching that one, we put in Pirates Dead man DVD (SD), and it showed this:

HDMI1
1080p 60hz

NOTE: On a standard DVD it says 1080p 60hz (I'm thinking the upconvert)
On a Blu-Ray Shows 1920 x 1080 24hz. (Might actually be 24hz)

If it was not 24hz, both connections are still the same HDMI, the only difference is the content, one being a DVD, one being a Blu-Ray. If it was 60, then why without any input from me, would it show 1920 x 1080 24hz on HDMI during blu-ray playback on the same PS3 HDMI Connection.

I did read somewhere else that at CES someone saw a NEW 247TFHD to be released later this year with 3 hdmi ports, same model #, and 120hz. Doesn't explain my set, but I find all of this quite odd.....

I bought mine day before Thanksgiving, 2 HDMI Ports. Very New set.

I guess I could fire off an email to Olevia, or I could take a picture of both screen demonstrating what I mean.

If you have any other suggestions, I'm happy to try, short of unscrewing the back and digging inside.

Yes that is good your display accepts 1080P/24 for BLU-RAY which is the native signal on the disc. 720 X 480 I is the native signal on the DVD at 60HZ. The PS3 up converts the DVD to1920 X 1080 P. The big question is how the image is processed on the screen. The info screen is only showing the signal that is coming into the display not what is being refreshed on the output. Your display is either converting the image to 60HZ for 1080P/24 or properly displaying 24HZ at 48HZ. Hopefully some one that has the proper test equipment will do a review on the display you own. Getting this information from companies is hard some times. Also no display or film projector displays 24fps since the screen would flicker every few seconds. That is why 35mm and 70mm film is flashed on the screen at 48fps or 72fps.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Lee Christie

Okay I see... so there would be two refresh modes, 100Hz, and 96Hz on the same display and it uses whichever is a multiple of the input.

Newbie question here...

But if that's possible (two refresh rate supported in one TV), why don't say (picking an example here) 60Hz TVs switch to 48Hz when given a 24p input instead of doing a pull down? That would eliminate judder without having to go to 120Hz (or 96Hz).

I had assumed the reason was that they had to pick ONE refresh rate and stick with it, emulating others with pull down but if you're saying they can have multiple native refresh rates then I must be wrong.

Most flat panels, rear projectors, and other displays only support one native refresh mode. Most ceiling mounted Front Projectors support several different refresh rates. For example the Sony KDS-60A3000 rear projector will refresh 1080P/24 material at 96HZ and refresh 60HZ material at 120HZ. There are several Front projectors on the list that display 60HZ material at 60HZ and then switch to 48HZ for 24HZ material. Any multiplies of 24fps will reduce or eliminate the judder (48HZ, 72HZ, 96HZ, 120HZ, etc).
You are correct about refresh rates. Most flat panel displays to save cost will only have one refresh rate which is 60HZ most of the time. For example the Sony flat panel LCD screens on the list only have a native 120HZ refresh rate regardless of the settings when using HDMI input. Now the Pioneer flat panel Plasma’s have two refresh rates which are 72HZ and 60HZ.

[HDTV1080P]

Settings update on the Sony KDS-60A3000, KDS-55A3000, and KDS-50A3000.

There is a filter mode on the Sony SXRD rear projectors that softens the picture (resolution). In order to get full 1080P resoultion the Sony’s need to be placed in standard or Vivid mode. The Cinema and custom mode softens the picture.

QUOTE from February 2008 Home Theater magazine page 69.

“In the case of this TV, we picked Cinema mode. Turns out, a filter was applied to this and Custom mode that rather drastically softened the image. It wasn’t until after the Face Off that I discovered that the Standard and Vivid modes had full 1080p resolution. Therefore, if you have one of these TVs, use the Standard mode and match the settings from the Cinema mode (that is, lower the color temperature, turn off all the enhancement stuff, and put it in the Standard Color Space mode). This way, you’ll have the accuracy of Cinema mode, plus the detail of the Standard mode.”

The Pioneer 720P (actual 768P) Kuro PDP-5080HD has more detail and better picture quality then most 1080P Plasma and LCD flat panels

By far high-end front projectors offer the best in picture quality over any other display. Of course not everyone has a dedicated dark home theater room so a front projector is not a option for some. Flat panel plasma’s are the second best option. If one can not afford the price of one of the 1080P Pioneer Plasma screens then owning one of the 720P Pioneer Plasma is a good choice. A 720P Pioneer Plasma has more detail then most 1080P flat panel Plasma and LCD displays on the market. The reason for this is the ANSI contrast ratio on the kuro 720P Pioneer Plasmas is more then 11 times that of some other displays and more then double the next closes display according to Home Theater magazine’s face off. The contrast ratio on the Pioneer 720P (768P actual) is so good that it offers so much more detail in contrast that it does not need resolution to appear detailed. Every Pioneer from 720P to 1080P every made that offers a 1080P/24 input option refreshes the image correctly on the screen at 72HZ. 720P Pioneer’s downconvert 1080P/24 to 720P quality (around 768P actual)
Resolution is only one factor of the picture quality. Most people seat so far away from the screen that they can not see the difference between 1080P and 720P unless they own a 60 inch display or larger. 1080P does look much better then 720P if you seat close enough to the screen. Home Theater magazine ran a face off between 6 1080P displays and 1 Pioneer 720P display and by far the Pioneer had the best picture quality do to its awesome black levels. ANSI contrast ratio’s can sometimes offer more detail in the picture then resolution. This list still will only include 1080P models but the fact is some 720P models will out perform 1080P in picture quality.

Quote From Home theater magazine. February 2008 page 74 and 76 (regarding the Pioneer PDP-5080HD)

Quote
“…the PDP-5080HD had the highest contrast ratio in the Face Off, in some cases by several times. Its ANSI contrast ratio was 11 times that of the Samsung and more then double that of the next closest display. Onscreen, this was completely visible.”

“Your eye is fooled into seeing detail when it is really seeing contrast. Think of what you would use to see detail, say, a wrinkle on a face. You see the wrinkle because it’s in shadow compared to the rest of the face. Well, on the PDP-5080HD, that shadow was so much more realistic that it didn’t need resolution to appear detailed. Seeing as it’s highly doubtful you’d ever sit three times the picture height away from a 50-inch TV (less then 6 feet, in this case) 768P is more then enough.”

[dfiler]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Technically everything we watch accept 1080P/24 HDTV discs has a 3:2 pulldown process. All the 480I DVD’s taken from the master 1080P/24 source or 4K source goes threw a 3:2 pulldown process. Also all the TV programs mastered at 1080P/24 when broadcasted go threw a 3:2 pulldown process.
Yes the Sony SXRD have a real nice picture quality that is better then LCD and most Plasma’s. Front Projectors are a little better then the rear projector SXRD’s.
When a review of the $15,000 Sony VPL-VW200 Front projector is done most likely someone will mention the black frame insertion process.

Excellent thread. I just got done reading the whole thing from start to finish.

I dredged up the quote above from 4 pages back...

Aren't pretty much all DVDs encoded at an interlaced 24fps, called 480i24? As I understand it, most DVD players then convert 480i24 to 60hz before output, using hints in the mpeg stream that say what to do with each field durring pulldown. Ignoring these hints is what provides straight 24fps.

Meaning, it is still possible to display them at the native 24fps, bypassing cadence conversions. (When using all the correct hardware and settings.)

This was a major realization on my part a few days ago. I had previously been under the impression that DVDs were encoded at 60 fields per sec, already having been subjected to 3:2 pulldown.

This is great considering that most people have DVD collections that will some day look even better! Once this becomes clear to the general public, I can see "native frame rate" really catching on as the TV buzzword of the year.

(Please tell me that my sudden realization is correct.)

[dereksworl]

This is my TV:
http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-e...00000000005702

Now i know it does 120Hz but i dont think it is 24p capable. I was in best buy and was watching the 40" sony XBR and it was running at 24p. It looked way smoother and natural than my panny(you kno, that camcorder look). Now my panny is 720p native but it does 1080p also. How do i get that camcorder film look? Am i missing something.

P.S. Im running a PS3 as my blu-ray player.

[dfiler]

After a bit more research, it seems like there isn't consensus about native DVD framerates on the net. Lots of confusion in the same way that there is confusion about 120hz sets.

Here's some info I snagged from a post on Doom9's forums. (sorry, lost the url)

Take any modern commerical DVD and open the VOBs in DGIndex. If you decode with "Honor Pulldown Flags" enabled, the decoded framerate will actually be 29.97i. If you decode with "Forced Film" enabled, DGIndex will simply assume framerate to be 23.976 fps and ignore all the repeat flags. If the DVD was encoded with a good encoder (these days most commercial DVDs are), the entire film will come out as pure 23.976p.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by dfiler

Excellent thread. I just got done reading the whole thing from start to finish.

I dredged up the quote above from 4 pages back...

Aren't pretty much all DVDs encoded at an interlaced 24fps, called 480i24? As I understand it, most DVD players then convert 480i24 to 60hz before output, using hints in the mpeg stream that say what to do with each field durring pulldown. Ignoring these hints is what provides straight 24fps.

Meaning, it is still possible to display them at the native 24fps, bypassing cadence conversions. (When using all the correct hardware and settings.)

This was a major realization on my part a few days ago. I had previously been under the impression that DVDs were encoded at 60 fields per sec, already having been subjected to 3:2 pulldown.

This is great considering that most people have DVD collections that will some day look even better! Once this becomes clear to the general public, I can see "native frame rate" really catching on as the TV buzzword of the year.

(Please tell me that my sudden realization is correct.)

All standard DVD’s are native 480I at 30fps on the disc. Standard movie DVD’s source is a 1080P/24 master digital tape, then down converted to 480I with a 3:2 pulldown process that changes the original frame rate from 24fps to 30 fps which also adds judder and other issues. Currently no BLU-RAY player will upconvert a DVD to 1080P/24, only 1080P/60. The HD-DVD format currently has players that will upconvert the 480I 30HZ DVD to 1080P/24. Some HD-DVD players extracts the 24fps by removing the 3:2 pulldown process from the 480I 30HZ disc and upconverting the image to 1080P/24. Hopefully in the future some BLU-RAY players will offer 1080P/24 upconversion.
I never really liked upconversion that much. The much better quality native 1080P/24 BLU-RAY discs are more enjoyable to watch. Up converting at best only offers a small improvement in picture improvement and sometimes the picture quality can look worse with up converting if the quality of the chipset software is poor.

[dfiler]

I've seen both that assertion and the opposite. That commercial DVDs are encoded as 480i24 with flags on the fields to indicate which to repeat. Ignoring those flags produces unmolested 24p.

Until yesterday, I believed what you just stated. However, in the last day, I've revised my assessment and now believe that DVDs are indeed 480i24.

I think in the early days of DVDs, plenty of discs were mastered badly. Many were non-anamorphic and also hard encoded with 3:2 pulldown. Since then, the industry has gained experience and now just about everything is encoded with the proper flags and at 24 frames per second.

The most technical explanation I've found yet was on Doom9's forums:

Take any modern commerical DVD and open the VOBs in DGIndex. If you decode with "Honor Pulldown Flags" enabled, the decoded framerate will actually be 29.97i. If you decode with "Forced Film" enabled, DGIndex will simply assume framerate to be 23.976 fps and ignore all the repeat flags. If the DVD was encoded with a good encoder (these days most commercial DVDs are), the entire film will come out as pure 23.976p.

Edit:

I think the confusion comes from the fact that the mpeg standard allows for repeated frames, which is heavily relied upon for cadence conversions. DVDs are encoded with repeat commands that result in 60hz 3:2 playback. However, if those flags are ignored, it is possible for players to do proper 24 fps playback.

So it is correct to say that they're encoded at 60hz. However, it is misleading because the original 24fps is still there and can be pulled out in a 100% lossless manner. The key being that the player doesn't have to guess which frames to leave out. They are explicitly labeled as repeats in the mpeg data.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by dfiler

I've seen both that assertion and the opposite. That commercial DVDs are encoded as 480i24 with flags on the fields to indicate which to repeat. Ignoring those flags produces unmolested 24p.

Until yesterday, I believed what you just stated. However, in the last day, I've revised my assessment and now believe that DVDs are indeed 480i24.

I think in the early days of DVDs, plenty of discs were mastered badly. Many were non-anamorphic and also hard encoded with 3:2 pulldown. Since then, the industry has gained experience and now just about everything is encoded with the proper flags and at 24 frames per second.

The most technical explanation I've found yet was on Doom9's forums:




Edit:

I think the confusion comes from the fact that the mpeg standard allows for repeated frames, which is heavily relied upon for cadence conversions. DVDs are encoded with repeat commands that result in 60hz 3:2 playback. However, if those flags are ignored, it is possible for players to do proper 24 fps playback.

So it is correct to say that they're encoded at 60hz. However, it is misleading because the original 24fps is still there and can be pulled out in a 100% lossless manner. The key being that the player doesn't have to guess which frames to leave out. They are explicitly labeled as repeats in the mpeg data.

Where is this quote coming from? It sounds like someone is using a special processor that removes the 3:2 pulldown process from the DVD. Perhaps if done digitally 24fps can be restored without much or any conversion issues from the 30fps DVD.

[dfiler]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Where is this quote coming from? It sounds like someone is using a special processor that removes the 3:2 pulldown process from the DVD. Perhaps if done digitally 24fps can be restored without much or any conversion issues from the 30fps DVD.

I've been googling like a madman over the past day or so. So far, almost all the good write-ups take the stance described above. I'll try to dig some up later tonight.

A "special" processor isn't needed to pull this off. In fact, it actually takes less processing power than does standard playback. Some HD-DVD players offer native 24fps playback of some SD-DVDs. But the real reason for all my research is to figure out if the PS3 can play DVDs at 24fps.

What's going on is that most modern/commercial DVDs truly only store 24fps. This saves space by not needing to store redundant data. The mpeg data contains both these real frames and flags for repeated frames for acheiving 3:2 pulldown.

The following page has some good info (embedded in lots of stuff not relevant to this topic):
DVD Player Benchmarks - Part 5 Search for "repeat_first_field" to find approximately where to look in that lengthy page. "repeat_first_field" is one of the mpeg flags I've refered to.

Edit:
Looking back, that wasn't the link I thought it was. Here's one that has some interesting info on hard vs soft telcine:
Framerate Guide - Handbrake
Soft telecining is what allows perfect 24fps playback from DVDs.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by dfiler

I've been googling like a madman over the past day or so. So far, almost all the good write-ups take the stance described above. I'll try to dig some up later tonight.

A "special" processor isn't needed to pull this off. In fact, it actually takes less processing power than does standard playback. Some HD-DVD players offer native 24fps playback of some SD-DVDs. But the real reason for all my research is to figure out if the PS3 can play DVDs at 24fps.

What's going on is that most modern/commercial DVDs truly only store 24fps. This saves space by not needing to store redundant data. The mpeg data contains both these real frames and flags for repeated frames for acheiving 3:2 pulldown.

The following page has some good info (embedded in lots of stuff not relevant to this topic):
DVD Player Benchmarks - Part 5 Search for "repeat_first_field" to find approximately where to look in that lengthy page. "repeat_first_field" is one of the mpeg flags I've refered to.

Edit:
Looking back, that wasn't the link I thought it was. Here's one that has some interesting info on hard vs soft telcine:
Framerate Guide - Handbrake
Soft telecining is what allows perfect 24fps playback from DVDs.

Thanks for the info. Yes hopefully some BLU-RAY and dual format players will have a firmware update to allow 1080P/24 up conversion. This would be a nice feature to add. In theory the PS3 and all other players that currently output 1080P/24 could offer such a feature with a simple software upgrade. Once one experiences BLU-RAY they usually do not watch as many DVD’s as they use too. Still it would be nice to have that feature when playing a DVD. I still have some Laserdisc movies I have not upgraded to BLU-RAY or DVD since the movie has not been released in those formats yet and might never be.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by dereksworl

This is my TV:
http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-e...00000000005702

Now i know it does 120Hz but i dont think it is 24p capable. I was in best buy and was watching the 40" sony XBR and it was running at 24p. It looked way smoother and natural than my panny(you kno, that camcorder look). Now my panny is 720p native but it does 1080p also. How do i get that camcorder film look? Am i missing something.

P.S. Im running a PS3 as my blu-ray player.

Your Panasonic TC-32LX700 LCD is a native 720P display. It will accept a 1080P/60 input from a BLU-RAY and downconvert the image to 720P/60 quality. Panasonic displays currently do not support 1080P/24 input in the USA yet. Sometime in 2008 or around mid 2008 Panasonic is suppose to be introducing 1080P/24 Plasma screens.

[dereksworl]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Your Panasonic TC-32LX700 LCD is a native 720P display. It will accept a 1080P/60 input from a BLU-RAY and downconvert the image to 720P/60 quality. Panasonic displays currently do not support 1080P/24 input in the USA yet. Sometime in 2008 or around mid 2008 Panasonic is suppose to be introducing 1080P/24 Plasma screens.

But my PS3 allows me to have my BD 1080p 24Hz on. Why is this? Is my PS3 playing with my emotions?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by dereksworl

But my PS3 allows me to have my BD 1080p 24Hz on. Why is this? Is my PS3 playing with my emotions?

Your TV might accept a 1080P/24 input, sorry I just realized it is 120HZ refresh rate. So far every Panasonic 1080P flat panel display I have read a review of does not support 1080P/24 input but only 1080P/60 . I have not read a review on your model of display.
What it sounds like your 720P native display might be doing is it may be accepting a 1080P/24 input and displaying it on the screen at 720P with a refresh rate of 120HZ. The big question is how is it processing the 1080P/24 input. If it uses a 3:2 pulldown process then you will not see any major difference between 1080P/60 and 1080P/24.
720P’s are not included on the list but I plan on adding the new 1080P 2008 Panasonic flat panels to the list once I can confirm if they process the 1080p/24 signal correctly like a film projector.