Frogmort's HT Pad

[hometheatergeek]

Hey Joe, I'm about ready to head home from work. If you like PM me your phone number and when I get home and pour a cold one I could call you back or I'll just check back later. But right now your subs are running very hot and they will run out of headroom (not be able to handle Dynamic swings in movies) they way they are setup right now.

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by frogmort

Thanks to everybody!!

Sorry for not quoting everyone, and responding individually, but I've been busy. The rednecks went inside for a minute, so I thought I would chance it, and I got it finished.

I do have a few questions. When I first plugged in the mic, it said to adjust the subwoofer level to 75 db(I think). It showed me a readout of where it was at(I think it was actually around 80). Well, I have two different subwoofers that I have balanced by ear(I know, I know), and I just left them where they already were. Is this really bad? Is it going to corrupt the entire calibration that I just did? Also, since it gives me a readout as to what db level the sub is at, could I use that like an SPL meter, and unplug one sub, set the level on the other one, then unplug the one I adjusted and do the same on the other one? I would assume that if that would work, I would probably adjust each one seperately to 72db? Is that right? If both are at 72db, then both together should be about 75db, right?

Thanks again everyone.

Isn't the 809 and 7.2? You should plug each sub into it's own spot on the back and not use the splitter anymore.

[spaceape]

Try reading this mate.--> F. Subwoofers & Bass

I. Room Setup

A. Lower the noise floor of the room (<45dBA) by turning off the HVAC system, projector, etc.

II. Subwoofer Setup

A. Determine the optimal placement of the subwoofer within your room using common accepted practices. (location, location, location)

1. Here are some useful references for subwoofer setup:
a. Audioholics subwoofer placement article: http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...or-bass-part-1
b. Harman multiple subwoofer placement white paper: http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

B. Disable the Low-Pass Filter (LPF) on the subwoofer, if allowed.

1. Disabling the LPF will result in more accurate subwoofer distance measurements.

2. If the LPF cannot be disabled, set it to the highest frequency allowed.

C. Ensure the subwoofer(s) are at least 3 – 5 inches (7 – 13 cm) from the wall.

1. Reverberating walls may result in inaccurate subwoofer distance measurements.

D. Set the subwoofer polarity (0 or 180 degrees), (+ or -) to “0” or “+”.

E. If the subwoofer has a phase control (in addition to the polarity control), set it at “0”.

1. Phase controls on subwoofers apply "delay" at one frequency rather than the needed group delay that is frequency-independent. So, it is best to just leave them at “0”.

F. If the sub has an EQ system, you can use it to tame large peaks (see item 1 below) before calibrating with Audyssey, but this is generally not recommended. Most of these EQ systems only allow one measurement position, and therefore only correct the amplitude (volume) for one seating position. Audyssey adds the benefit of measuring in the time domain for multiple seating positions to create an acoustic bubble.

1. Narrow peaks or dips in the response below 100 Hz that are 1/3 or 1/6 of an octave wide can be improved—but not eliminated—by Audyssey Mult EQ XT.
a. In these situations, the built-in subwoofer EQ systems might be useful.
b. The SVS AS-EQ1 and the Audyssey Sub Equalizer (introduced in 2009), have double the resolution of Audyssey MultEQ XT found in Audio-Video Receivers, which allows it to correct more narrow peaks and valleys in subwoofer response.

G. Calibrate the subwoofer volume

1. Newer Receivers (i.e. Denon AVR-4310 CI) have automated the subwoofer volume calibration process, making steps 2 – 8 below unnecessary. If you are fortunate enough to own one of these newer models, proceed to section III.

2. Set the volume control on the subwoofer at the middle of the adjustment range allowed.
a. Please note this “starting point” may not work with all subwoofers.

3. Place the microphone at the first measurement position (see guidance in section V.) and proceed with the calibration process for the first measurement—until all speakers have been measured once.

4. After the first measurement process is complete, select "Calculate", then "Save" or "Store", then go to "Check Parameters".
a. Audyssey will calculate the speaker distances and trim level settings from this first measurement.
b. Each manufacturer has a slightly different interface, so the terminology may not exactly match.

5. Check the subwoofer trim level setting in the receiver / processor menu.
a. If the subwoofers’ trim level is at the maximum limit of the cut (-) or boost (+) adjustment range allowed, you need to adjust the volume control on the subwoofer and repeat step #2. Specific instructions will follow.
b. Trim adjustments are a tool used to achieve the goal of producing the same Sound Pressure Level (SPL) from each speaker / subwoofer in the system.
c. For example, Denon receivers have a trim adjustment range from -12dB to +12dB.

6. If the subwoofer trim level is at the maximum boost (+), turn up the volume control on the subwoofer slightly and repeat step #2.

7. If the subwoofer trim level is at the maximum cut (-), turn down the volume control on the subwoofer slightly and repeat step #2.

8. A suggestion for tweakers is to set the subwoofer trim level in the range of ±3 dB.
a. This is only a suggestion for the tweaker who likes to play around.
b. Audyssey’s position is to perform steps 4 to 6 above.

• Note: This process is for checking the subwoofer trim levels only. After you have completed the subwoofer setup, be sure to start the measurement process over, following the guidance in section V to use all six or eight measurement positions available.
III. Dual mono (LFE) Subwoofer Setup

A few receiver and processor models are able to apply individual Audyssey equalization curves to multiple subwoofers simultaneously. If you do not own one of these units, the SVS AS-EQ1 will apply individual Audyssey equalization curves to two subwoofers simultaneously. Alternatively, you can follow the below advice to have two subwoofers share one Audyssey equalization curve.

A. Place the subwoofers symmetrically within the room, if at all possible.

B. Place the subwoofers at identical distances from the primary listening position, if at all possible.

1. When two subwoofers are driven as one unit, proper time alignment is critical.

2. The two subwoofers will not be properly time aligned unless they have the same physical distance from the primary listening position.

3. Adjusting the physical distance of the two subs effectively adjusts their time delay.

C. The above advice applies only to sealed rectangular rooms without any openings.

D. Follow the steps in subwoofer setup (section II.) for each subwoofer: Ensure the polarity settings are the same.

E. As an alternative to locating the subs at equal distances from the main listening position, you may insert an electronic device between the receiver / processor and the nearest subwoofer.

1. This device should introduce a time delay such that its output sound reaches the main listening position at the same time as the farthest subwoofer.

F. Attempt to match the output level of both subwoofers.

1. Use the receiver / processor internal LFE test tone while adjusting the volume control on the subwoofer to perform the following:

2. Turn one subwoofer on, and adjust the output level to 80 dB using an SPL meter.
a. Ensure the SPL meter is located where the first Audyssey measurement position will be taken (see section V.), and is set to “C” and “Slow”.
b. If you do not have an SPL meter, adjust the level by ear.

3. Turn off the first subwoofer, turn on the second subwoofer, and repeat the procedure.

4. Turn on both subwoofers and calibrate with Audyssey.

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by hometheatergeek

Hey Joe, I'm about ready to head home from work. If you like PM me your phone number and when I get home and pour a cold one I could call you back or I'll just check back later. But right now your subs are running very hot and they will run out of headroom (not be able to handle Dynamic swings in movies) they way they are setup right now.

Thanks for all of your help buddy. Can I do what I said? Can I use the tone to adjust each sub seperately like an SPL meter? I really don't see why I couldn't.

Originally Posted by HAMP

Isn't the 809 and 7.2? You should plug each sub into it's own spot on the back and not use the splitter anymore.

Actually, according to the Audyssey FAQ on AVS, unless you have MultEQ XT32, you should still use a splitter. My owners manual says "The same signal is output from each jack", so apparently, it's just like using a splitter, hence I do have each plugged into their own seperate input

I just found this from that link:

"Some versions of MultEQ XT (eg Onkyo) allow for setting up dual subs with an on-screen configuration before the full set of measurements are taken. If so, then this is the best way to get the levels of the subs right before starting the calibration."

I think that answers my question, because mine seems to have that. Before I start the actual calibration, it gives me a test tone from the subs, and says to set it to 75db. It has a readout that shows me the db's in real time. That link also says that with two subs, to adjust each one seperately to 72db.

I wonder if I need to rerun the entire calibration after adjusting the subs. I'm sure that I do.

Uuugghh. My brain is starting to hurt again.

Edit: I tend to believe the stuff in that link, because Chris Kyriakakis the inventor and CEO of Audyssey posts in that thread a whole bunch. I'm pretty sure most of that info comes from him.

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by spaceape

Try reading this mate.--> F. Subwoofers & Bass

I have read the whole thing twice, and browsed a few of the sections again several times.


I guess the best thing to do is adjust both of my sub levels seperately to 72db, then rerun Audyssey in all 8 positions. Simple, right?

[hometheatergeek]

Originally Posted by frogmort

Thanks for all of your help buddy. Can I do what I said? Can I use the tone to adjust each sub seperately like an SPL meter? I really don't see why I couldn't.

Yes

Actually, according to the Audyssey FAQ on AVS, unless you have MultEQ XT32, you should still use a splitter. My owners manual says "The same signal is output from each jack", so apparently, it's just like using a splitter, hence I do have each plugged into their own seperate input

Correct

"Some versions of MultEQ XT (eg Onkyo) allow for setting up dual subs with an on-screen configuration before the full set of measurements are taken. If so, then this is the best way to get the levels of the subs right before starting the calibration."

I think that answers my question, because mine seems to have that. Before I start the actual calibration, it gives me a test tone from the subs, and says to set it to 75db. It has a readout that shows me the db's in real time. That link also says that with two subs, to adjust each one seperately to 72db.

I wonder if I need to rerun the entire calibration after adjusting the subs. I'm sure that I do.

It's best if you do rerun Audyssey... see my last post about headroom.

Uuugghh. My brain is starting to hurt again.

Edit: I tend to believe the stuff in that link, because Chris Kyriakakis the inventor and CEO of Audyssey posts in that thread a whole bunch. I'm pretty sure most of that info comes from him.

Man up Son this is the fun part of the hobby.

[spaceape]

Well good luck.

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by hometheatergeek

Yes



Correct



It's best if you do rerun Audyssey... see my last post about headroom.



Man up Son this is the fun part of the hobby.

This is the fun part? I thought the fun part is when everything is sounding great, and I can just sit back and get lost in the audio bliss.

Thanks again for all of your help buddy!

It looks like this is the way to go:

1) Unplug sub-B and adjust sub-A to 72db.
2) Unplug sub-A and adjust sub-B to 72db.
3) Replug sub-A and rerun all 8 positions of Audyssey.
4) Done! Right?

[spaceape]

Don't forget too also plug Sub B back mate. When done with all the rest. The combined subs volume will properly add too around 75db in all.

Good job

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by spaceape

Well good luck.

Thanks Tommy.

I think I'm going to go start over again with the list I put up there ^^^^^^^^

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by frogmort

Actually, according to the Audyssey FAQ on AVS, unless you have MultEQ XT32, you should still use a splitter. My owners manual says "The same signal is output from each jack", so apparently, it's just like using a splitter, hence I do have each plugged into their own seperate input

I just found this from that link:

"Some versions of MultEQ XT (eg Onkyo) allow for setting up dual subs with an on-screen configuration before the full set of measurements are taken. If so, then this is the best way to get the levels of the subs right before starting the calibration."

I think that answers my question, because mine seems to have that. Before I start the actual calibration, it gives me a test tone from the subs, and says to set it to 75db. It has a readout that shows me the db's in real time. That link also says that with two subs, to adjust each one seperately to 72db.

I wonder if I need to rerun the entire calibration after adjusting the subs. I'm sure that I do.

Uuugghh. My brain is starting to hurt again.

Edit: I tend to believe the stuff in that link, because Chris Kyriakakis the inventor and CEO of Audyssey posts in that thread a whole bunch. I'm pretty sure most of that info comes from him.

You are missing a few points, you should plug each of the subs into the back and not use a splitter. It's noted that Onkyo will allow for setting up dual subs with an on-screen configuration before the full set of measurements are taken. This way you are setting them according to the provided mic, and not using two different sources to get readings(one being the AVR, the other being the radio shack) .

Before you run the actual configuration, just turn one of them off on the amp plate. Then run the audysessy as normal. You will be disconnecting or turning one of them off using the splitter, this way, your just using the same readings from the same source.

As it says in your manual the same signal is used on both sub ports, I have XT32, and yes it sends the same signal out both ports when watching a movie, there is not such things as .2 with getting LFE, it’s one source.

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by spaceape

Don't forget too also plug Sub B back mate. When done with all the rest. The combined subs volume will properly add too around 75db in all.

Good job

Ha-HA!

Thanks man!

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by HAMP

You are missing a few points, you should plug each of the subs into the back and not use a splitter. It's noted that Onkyo will allow for setting up dual subs with an on-screen configuration before the full set of measurements are taken. This way you are setting them according to the provided mic, and not using two different sources to get readings(one being the AVR, the other being the radio shack) .

Before you run the actual configuration, just turn one of them off on the amp plate. Then run the audysessy as normal. You will be disconnecting or turning one of them off using the splitter, this way, your just using the same readings from the same source.

As it says in your manual the same signal is used on both sub ports, I have XT32, and yes it sends the same signal out both ports when watching a movie, there is not such things as .2 with getting LFE, it’s one source.

I do have each sub plugged directly into the back of the receiver into the seperate sub outputs. Since I don't have an SPL meter, it's great that the Onkyo has the built in sub tone before the actual Audyssey calibration.

That bolded part, you mean run the subwoofer test signal one at a time, right? I shouldn't run the full Audyssey calibration until I have both subs set to 72db each, then turn both of them on, then run the Audyssey in the 8 different spots, right?

[spaceape]

Calibrating two SVS subs help needed!

Maybe it'll shed some light on the subject. Sorry for the copy/paste spam.

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by spaceape

Calibrating two SVS subs help needed!

Maybe it'll shed some light on the subject. Sorry for the copy/paste spam.

Thanks Tommy. I read through that, but I think I've got it figured out(I think).

[spaceape]

Originally Posted by frogmort

Thanks Tommy. I read through that, but I think I've got it figured out(I think).

Just do it the best you can the first time around and enjoy your new receiver Joe. Im sure that even though you'll get it all perfect this time around you still with be re-running it in not a very long time. Hehe

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by spaceape

Just do it the best you can the first time around and enjoy your new receiver Joe. Im sure that even though you'll get it all perfect this time around you still with be re-running it in not a very long time. Hehe

Hey Frogmort, I missed that last posting to me somehow. but, spaceape is correct, even if you have it perfect now, your going to mess with it again, and again.

How about you telling us how it sounds now? Even if it's not perfect.

[frogmort]

Okay, I think I'm done for now.

The first thing I did was to turn off all audio and video processing, and then entered basic settings, such as speaker configuration, etc.

I set both subs seperately with the test sound to where they were each going back and forth between 71db and 72db. With it set this way, and both turned on, the overall level was back and forth between 75db and 76db. I went back and forth with each one seperately, then both together many times to arrive at this level.

I used a tripod set exactly at ear level in all positions pointing directly at the ceiling. For the three tests from the couch, I lowered the tripod exactly to ear level. For the other five tests, I set the tripod on the floor with some bubble-wrap under each of the three tripod feet to decouple it from the floor to get more acurate LFE readings, and I raised the tripod exactly to ear level. I used this diagram for exact placement:



I then ran all eight tests while standing outside of the room quietly. Here are the results:

Bass Management Cutoff frequencies:

Front: 40hz
Center: 40hz
Side Surround: 80hz
Rear Surround: 150hz

My front and center speakers are a matching set, so it makes sense that they are the same. I will probably raise them to 70hz or 80hz as it is okay to raise them, but not to lower them. The side and rear surrounds are the exact same speakers, but the sides are mounted directly onto the wall, and the rears are on shelves with nothing behind them, so I'm sure this effected the drastically different cutoff points. I was a bit surprised that the rears were cutoff that high. I may eventually put something behind them and run Audyssey again.

Distance/Delay Measurements:

Front Left: 9.5 ft
Front Right: 9.5 ft
Center: 8.0 ft
Side Left: 5.5 ft
Side Right: 5.5 ft
Rear Left: 5.5 ft
Rear Right: 5.5 ft
Subwoofer: 6.0 ft

These all came out much more even than I expected. They are all exactly the same distance that I got using a measuring tape for my old receiver, except that the subwoofer is slightly further now, which should make it respond slightly faster, and be more in phase with the other speakers.

Speaker Levels:

Front Left: +2.5db
Front Right: +4.0db
Center: -5.0db
Side Left: -6.5db
Side Right: -6.5db
Rear Left: -7.0db
Rear Right: -6.5db
Subwoofer: 0.0db

I always thought the front right speaker seemed a little quieter than the front left, so that adjustment makes sense. I think it has to do with my room, as I noticed the same thing with my old Polk fronts. I didn't expect the center to be adjusted so low. It could be because I have my fronts firing straight ahead with mild toe-in, but my center is lower, but angled upwards. I always thought my Polk M10 surrounds were a little 'hot', so these levels didn't really surprise me. The fact that the subwoofer level is set to 0.0db confirms that I adjusted them correctly before the calibration.

I have yet to listen to anything on my new receiver, so I will be doing that shortly.

[hometheatergeek]

Originally Posted by frogmort

Okay, I think I'm done for now.

The first thing I did was to turn off all audio and video processing, and then entered basic settings, such as speaker configuration, etc.

I set both subs seperately with the test sound to where they were each going back and forth between 71db and 72db. With it set this way, and both turned on, the overall level was back and forth between 75db and 76db. I went back and forth with each one seperately, then both together many times to arrive at this level.

I used a tripod set exactly at ear level in all positions pointing directly at the ceiling. For the three tests from the couch, I lowered the tripod exactly to ear level. For the other five tests, I set the tripod on the floor with some bubble-wrap under each of the three tripod feet to decouple it from the floor to get more acurate LFE readings, and I raised the tripod exactly to ear level. I used this diagram for exact placement:



I then ran all eight tests while standing outside of the room quietly. Here are the results:

Bass Management Cutoff frequencies:

Front: 40hz
Center: 40hz
Side Surround: 80hz
Rear Surround: 150hz

My front and center speakers are a matching set, so it makes sense that they are the same. I will probably raise them to 70hz or 80hz as it is okay to raise them, but not to lower them. The side and rear surrounds are the exact same speakers, but the sides are mounted directly onto the wall, and the rears are on shelves with nothing behind them, so I'm sure this effected the drastically different cutoff points. I was a bit surprised that the rears were cutoff that high. I may eventually put something behind them and run Audyssey again.

Distance/Delay Measurements:

Front Left: 9.5 ft
Front Right: 9.5 ft
Center: 8.0 ft
Side Left: 5.5 ft
Side Right: 5.5 ft
Rear Left: 5.5 ft
Rear Right: 5.5 ft
Subwoofer: 6.0 ft

These all came out much more even than I expected. They are all exactly the same distance that I got using a measuring tape for my old receiver, except that the subwoofer is slightly further now, which should make it respond slightly faster, and be more in phase with the other speakers.

Speaker Levels:

Front Left: +2.5db
Front Right: +4.0db
Center: -5.0db
Side Left: -6.5db
Side Right: -6.5db
Rear Left: -7.0db
Rear Right: -6.5db
Subwoofer: 0.0db

I always thought the front right speaker seemed a little quieter than the front left, so that adjustment makes sense. I think it has to do with my room, as I noticed the same thing with my old Polk fronts. I didn't expect the center to be adjusted so low. It could be because I have my fronts firing straight ahead with mild toe-in, but my center is lower, but angled upwards. I always thought my Polk M10 surrounds were a little 'hot', so these levels didn't really surprise me. The fact that the subwoofer level is set to 0.0db confirms that I adjusted them correctly before the calibration.

I have yet to listen to anything on my new receiver, so I will be doing that shortly.

Those are excellent numbers Joe. I would do what you said and raise the x-over to 80Hz and you should be golden.

[spaceape]

Having the speakers crossovers at 40hz is almost like running full band so your bass will most likely sound very weak. Raise them too 60-80hz too let your subs do some of the work.