The Terminator (1984)

[Indiana Jones]

Has no one considered that they could have done what they did with the Jaws remaster and replaced the sound effects with those from their original mix?

Even if it does not have the mono it could sound very close effect wise or has someone seen the new disc and confirmed its the exact same track?

[Prim]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Ignorance is one thing, but are you honestly telling me that the silenced gunshot audio for what is actually a hand cannon was a better choice? Something usually has to give when upmixing from mono to 5.1, natch, but I'll never understand why they felt the need to deviate so much from the original mix in this case, throwing out the foley and effects tracks and starting from scratch. Simplistic as the mono was, the powerful stock effects gave it a blood-and-thunder feel that's sorely lacking from the weak-ass 5.1 mix.

That's the best way to describe it, blood and thunder. The mono has that rawness that that suits the film. It's not T2, it's not big budget, it's raw and gritty, and should sound that way, IMO.

[Lantz]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Ignorance is one thing, but are you honestly telling me that the silenced gunshot audio for what is actually a hand cannon was a better choice? Something usually has to give when upmixing from mono to 5.1, natch, but I'll never understand why they felt the need to deviate so much from the original mix in this case, throwing out the foley and effects tracks and starting from scratch. Simplistic as the mono was, the powerful stock effects gave it a blood-and-thunder feel that's sorely lacking from the weak-ass 5.1 mix.

Well, if what is on that DVD SE released in 2001 is the 'bad' remix, then I can honestly say that I have thought that was the original sound elements, as I cannot remember what I heard back in the 80s, or do not know what was intended originally. Never reacted to thr sound on the 5-6 viewings I have had over the years.

But what you are describing does sound very off, I guess I have to recheck the DVD.

[EddieLarkin]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jones

Has no one considered that they could have done what they did with the Jaws remaster and replaced the sound effects with those from their original mix?

Even if it does not have the mono it could sound very close effect wise or has someone seen the new disc and confirmed its the exact same track?

All we have is the German article posted a few pages back stating the German release will not have the mono and will use the 2000 DVD sound effects. This is apparently because the producers prefer the new sound effects, and so leads us to believe it will be the case for the other EU releases.

In the case of Jaws, they did not use the original foley effects in the new 7.1 mix. Some stuff sounds better but most of it is the same as the 5.1 DVD mix.

Usually what happens is because the foley track is just studio stock effects it is often not preserved, and the reason they go and make new effects for a remix is because the original foley track no longer exists. The original sound effects only exist as part of the full mono track itself, and it isn't possible to isolate the effects from the mono track and move them about the sound space.

If that is the case with The Terminator, then I doubt we'll ever see a remix that uses the original effects. They COULD try and recreate them more closely to the original, but the old remix and the German article shows they are too lazy for that.

Here's an example of a foley change in the new mix, there are tons of examples throughout the film but this is the only one I can find on youtube:

MONO

Terminator Takes Out Sarah Connor (Original Mono Audio Track) - YouTube

REMIX

Terminator scène: "Sarah conor ?" - YouTube

Don't worry, they didn't go as far to change Arnie's voice in the remix, it's just a foreign dub. Still, the new gun sound effect is present in the English 5.1

[EddieLarkin]

Here's another example I've found.

The tech noir shootout. Just about everything is changed here

MONO

The Terminator - TECH NOIR Scene - Best of 80's Cinema - YouTube

REMIX

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJjYk...tailpage#t=90s

New gun sound effects is one thing but do they really have to make them sound so wimpy and pathetic? Arnie's machine gun sounds no different to a toy gun my younger brother has. How hard is it to use the mono as a reference? Then there's the little things. When Arnie gets up after being blown through the window, the glass crunching under him is barely audible. It's probably not an altered effect but goes to show how poorly matched to the mono the track is.

If you're sat there listening to the 5.1, lossless or no, thinking you've got some wall shaking action track going on, you need to switch over to the mono. It packs so much more punch, and any half decent sound set up will prove I'm right. The remix will obviously have greater fidelity but no amount can make toy gun effects sound like the real deal.

[insomniac013]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

All we have is the German article posted a few pages back stating the German release will not have the mono and will use the 2000 DVD sound effects. This is apparently because the producers prefer the new sound effects, and so leads us to believe it will be the case for the other EU releases.

In the case of Jaws, they did not use the original foley effects in the new 7.1 mix. Some stuff sounds better but most of it is the same as the 5.1 DVD mix.

Usually what happens is because the foley track is just studio stock effects it is often not preserved, and the reason they go and make new effects for a remix is because the original foley track no longer exists. The original sound effects only exist as part of the full mono track itself, and it isn't possible to isolate the effects from the mono track and move them about the sound space.

If that is the case with The Terminator, then I doubt we'll ever see a remix that uses the original effects. They COULD try and recreate them more closely to the original, but the old remix and the German article shows they are too lazy for that.

Here's an example of a foley change in the new mix, there are tons of examples throughout the film but this is the only one I can find on youtube:

MONO

Terminator Takes Out Sarah Connor (Original Mono Audio Track) - YouTube

REMIX

Terminator scène: "Sarah conor ?" - YouTube

Don't worry, they didn't go as far to change Arnie's voice in the remix, it's just a foreign dub. Still, the new gun sound effect is present in the English 5.1

Is that what the fuss is about? GUN SHOTS? It's not like Cameron is adding pointless CGI or digitally replacing actors, like a certain other filmmaker does!

It would be nice if the original mono track was included, but i don't really care if it's not... Besides, how do you know this new DTS-HD MA 5.1 track doesn't include the old sound effects? Did you already watch it? How did you get the steelbook so soon?

If the track is indeed not included here, then it probably never be. Get over it.

[Jezza]

Originally Posted by insomniac013

Is that what the fuss is about? GUN SHOTS? It's not like Cameron is adding pointless CGI or digitally replacing actors, like a certain other filmmaker does!

It would be nice if the original mono track was included, but i don't really care if it's not... Besides, how do you know this new DTS-HD MA 5.1 track doesn't include the old sound effects? Did you already watch it? How did you get the steelbook so soon?

If the track is indeed not included here, then it probably never be. Get over it.

Agreed.

I've seen the film with the 5.1 track so many times now that the lack of mono honestly doesn't bother me now. Sure I'd love it to be included because I do think it's much, much better, but it's one of those things fans fuss too much over.

[Geoff D]

Pfft. The 5.1 mix is not the same film that I love. Simple as that.

As for Tech Noir, when the action slows down the music gets this funky reverb thing going on which sounds awesome in the mono mix, but in the 5.1 it's also piped through the rears whereupon they added even more delay to it, so it sounds horribly false and gimmicky.

If that's all people know the film by then good for them. But it's not too much to ask to have a film sounding like I (and many others) know it, seeing as the movie was around for the best part of two decades before they decided to **** with it.

And we're not asking for heroic measures, just the inclusion of a mono mix that would take up a tiny fraction of Blu-ray's 50GB capacity. If we seem unnecessarily agitated it's because this would be so SIMPLE for the studios to do, but they just don't want to know.

[EddieLarkin]

Compared to the tech noir scene, the Sarah Connor? scene seems pretty minor. Give that one a listen if you haven't already.

But maybe this, in my opinion, even greater offender will convince even the most blinded 5.1 defenders:

MONO

T1 truck chase - YouTube

REMIX

The Terminator Truck chase - YouTube

Ignoring the completely pathetic collision and explosion effects, and the brand new "fire hiss" that occurs when the flames cover the garbage bin that Reese is hiding in, there is an actual music cue missing in this example.

As the fuse on the pipe bomb draws closer and closer to detonating, the whining effect of the music track builds to a crescendo and ceases once the bomb explodes. This entire effect and its build up is completely absent from the new mix. It's gone. There's nothing there now.

I don't want to start insulting people, but anyone who knows anything about how important the soundtrack of a film is and how it effects your experience of the film, should be pretty shocked at this omission. That crescendo is a deliberate attempt by the director or the sound designer to evoke tension and anticipation in the viewer.

Just to be clear to insomniac013, all these new effects and changes have little to do with Cameron himself. I imagine he had nothing to do with them, and in fact I believe he pushed for the original mono to be included on the old DVD when originally it never was going to be. This is studio/production meddling, not George Lucas "updating" his vision meddling. So to remove this part of the sound design should be pretty offensive even to people who are completely used to the 5.1, or have never heard the mono.

Of course I don't know that a new 5.1 mix (if indeed it is "new") will not include the new effects, but I've already explained why this is highly unlikely. I'm still entertaining the possibility they might include the mono (though I think it's more likely to appear on a future US release rather than this UK release). If not, as stated before I'm perfectly happy with my DVD.

[insomniac013]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Pfft. The 5.1 mix is not the same film that I love. Simple as that.

As for Tech Noir, when the action slows down the music gets this funky reverb thing going on which sounds awesome in the mono mix, but in the 5.1 it's also piped through the rears whereupon they added even more delay to it, so it sounds horribly false and gimmicky.

If that's all people know the film by then good for them. But it's not too much to ask to have a film sounding like I (and many others) know it, seeing as the movie was around for the best part of two decades before they decided to **** with it.

Again, probably me being ignorant, but it sounds just fine to me...? If Jim Cameron wants his film to sound more modern, what right do you have to tell him no?

Besides: I think you're being a bit hypocritical, talking about preserving original sound effects and such, while owning the Star Wars BD collection - Pretty much the worst release for ****ing classics up ever!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by insomniac013

Again, probably me being ignorant, but it sounds just fine to me...? If Jim Cameron wants his film to sound more modern, what right do you have to tell him no?

Besides: I think you're being a bit hypocritical, talking about preserving original sound effects and such, while owning the Star Wars BD collection - Pretty much the worst release for ****ing classics up ever!

What? I'm not talking from some holier-than-thou preservation standpoint, I simply want the same film that I grew up idolising. For example I don't mind the remix for Conan at all, unlike others who deem it to be a travesty. Hell, if someone offered me a similar 5.1 remix for Terminator (i.e. original dialogue and effects with slightly fudged music) I'd bite their ****ing hand off.

The point isn't so much that it's been remixed, but that it's been remixed very, very badly. So you can stick your hypocrisy where the sun don't shine.

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

If you're sat there listening to the 5.1, lossless or no, thinking you've got some wall shaking action track going on, you need to switch over to the mono. It packs so much more punch, and any half decent sound set up will prove I'm right. The remix will obviously have greater fidelity but no amount can make toy gun effects sound like the real deal.

While I agree, at the same time on any half decent setup the 5.1 lpcm lossless track on the U.S release still makes an impact dispite the mono track packing more punch. If the gunfire sounds are corrected in this new upcoming version (which is possible) but the rest of the 5.1 remix remains the same, then I will be satisfied.

[The Apocalypse]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

What? I'm not talking from some holier-than-thou preservation standpoint, I simply want the same film that I grew up idolising. For example I don't mind the remix for Conan at all, unlike others who deem it to be a travesty. Hell, if someone offered me a similar 5.1 remix for Terminator (i.e. original dialogue and effects with slightly fudged music) I'd bite their ****ing hand off.

The point isn't so much that it's been remixed, but that it's been remixed very, very badly. So you can stick your hypocrisy where the sun don't shine.

This is what I mean. If the remix has been done very badly, then I'd reconsider. What if the mix has been improved though for this new release?

[EddieLarkin]

Originally Posted by Cevolution

While I agree, at the same time on any half decent setup the 5.1 lpcm lossless track on the U.S release still makes an impact dispite the mono track packing more punch. If the gunfire sounds are corrected in this new upcoming version (which is possible) but the rest of the 5.1 remix remains the same, then I will be happy.

The only way I can see the original sound effects making an appearance on a remix is if the effects have no directionality (the whole reason they are recreated is so they can be made to move around the sound space). But people don't want that, when they see "surround sound" on the case or the menu they expect surround sound. I'd be a lot more shocked to see a faithful remix on this release than I am the original untouched mono.

And even faithful sound effects wouldn't change the many other instances of meddling, one of which I've posted above. The whole practice of taking a mono track and making it surround always leads to stuff like this, some minor, some major.

[vidjunkie]

A while back I put the lossless LPCM track from the Laserdisc in complete synch with the Blu-ray for this movie, not sure if the UK version is exactly the same in length as the US BD though because I did not have it to check, but if it is different because of different intros and such wouldn't be to much to fix for the UK version as well.

[EddieLarkin]

Originally Posted by EclipseSSD

This is what I mean. If the remix has been done very badly, then I'd reconsider. What if the mix has been improved though for this new release?

Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. This whole discussion has stemmed from a single non-English article stating the new German release (and thus, most likely all other new EU releases) will not have the mono included, and the remix will use the "2000 effects". If that is true, then it almost certainly means we'll be treated to the old remix from over a decade ago.

We have little else to go on.

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

The only way I can see the original sound effects making an appearance on a remix is if the effects have no directionality (the whole reason they are recreated is so they can be made to move around the sound space). But people don't want that, when they see "surround sound" on the case or the menu they expect surround sound. I'd be a lot more shocked to see a faithful remix on this release than I am the original untouched mono.

And even faithful sound effects wouldn't change the many other instances of meddling, one of which I've posted above. The whole practice of taking a mono track and making it surround always leads to stuff like this, some minor, some major.

No no, what I meant by "corrected" wasn't about the orginal sound effects making an appearance on this remix, but instead the gun sounds simply being changed so they don't sound so "whimpy" as you put it in a previous post, and no longer kind of sound like a sliencer is attached. That wouldn't be hard for them to do.

[EddieLarkin]

I see what you mean. I can understand why that would please a lot of people, but to me an alteration is an alteration, whether it's good or bad. Personally I don't even like the idea of experiencing a film in surround when it was mono in theatres. Perhaps in this case my nitpicking is unjustified, but I'll always stand by my hate of The Terminator 5.1

[Lantz]

So, this sound debate aside, what ARE the latest confirmed specs of the UK release? A link?

[Indiana Jones]

Originally Posted by Lantz

So, this sound debate aside, what ARE the latest confirmed specs of the UK release? A link?

Nothing is known about it apart from its meant to feature a new transfer.