Third Window Films Discussion Thread

[drees5761]

Thanks Adam for the balanced and very informative reply, i must say being a one man band you should be very proud of what you have done and released so far and i hope you continue to have success with upcoming releases.
My main love is Hong Kong cinema and there are lots of less well known great titles that have not had a decent release anywhere in the world, especially in HD.
Titles that spring to mind are Bride With White Hair, The Mission, Blade of Fury, Big Bullet, Painted Faces, and many more which may be more accessible with regards to cost etc.
If you need any info on various aspects of HK Cinema just PM me and again good luck with your label.

[jonboy24]

Originally Posted by thirdwindowfilms

Actually, may be helping someone else release it in the UK, but it won't come out under our name. Actually, have a couple comedies for next year which were REQUESTED by many people, especially How to Use Guys with Secret Tips which won the audience award at the Udine Far East Film Festival, so will try and balance those with some darker or more genre films as to not have too many comedies. Will help this other company as much as possible and they plan on releasing in many territories so I'm sure you'll see it soon!

That is a major tease

[thirdwindowfilms]

Originally Posted by drees5761

Thanks Adam for the balanced and very informative reply, i must say being a one man band you should be very proud of what you have done and released so far and i hope you continue to have success with upcoming releases.
My main love is Hong Kong cinema and there are lots of less well known great titles that have not had a decent release anywhere in the world, especially in HD.
Titles that spring to mind are Bride With White Hair, The Mission, Blade of Fury, Big Bullet, Painted Faces, and many more which may be more accessible with regards to cost etc.
If you need any info on various aspects of HK Cinema just PM me and again good luck with your label.

tried to release The Mission a couple years ago but there were problems at the time. Will try again!

They're all great films, though owned by the bigger companies such as Mei Ah, so quite complicated to deal with them, though will try!

Hopefully people would be up for double-dipping, as not as many people want to upgrade as would be nice

[thirdwindowfilms]

Originally Posted by jonboy24

That is a major tease

we're doing our best to help them, but don't want to say anything until it's more set in stone!

[Mansinthe]

Originally Posted by jonboy24

A long day

Why German subs on a UK release? Surely it wouldn't be worth the extra cost to please a small number of German fans

there are a lot of movie fans in germany that import movies from all around the world only to get a steelbook they are never gonna open, or get a uncut movie that wont be avaible here or is even banned (amazon.co.uk for example wont shipped tetsuo to germany becouse of part 2 ^^)

so yeah would be probably a small number of customers but they would still bring in money. but i dont know if its worth the extra fee for these rights to add multiple subs.

but asian cinema is doing good in germany ! you should take a look at the output splendid has each month of new and expensiv korean movies and japanese horror stuff + chinese fantasy movies.

add a steelbook or a digipack and they pay good money for such a movie, even if its cut ! (reign of assassins was released cut here, but since it was a steelbook )

but probably it would be to expensiv to do anyway....

[drees5761]

Originally Posted by thirdwindowfilms

tried to release The Mission a couple years ago but there were problems at the time. Will try again!

They're all great films, though owned by the bigger companies such as Mei Ah, so quite complicated to deal with them, though will try!

Hopefully people would be up for double-dipping, as not as many people want to upgrade as would be nice

The Mission is a superb film, hope you do release it. I mentioned the film on my Asian Cult Cinema facebook page a while ago and many replied they would love a Blu ray of that film.
How easy is it, or not, to release these sort of titles region free? That way i am sure many people in other regions would snap these up on Blu ray definitely.

[thirdwindowfilms]

Originally Posted by drees5761

The Mission is a superb film, hope you do release it. How easy is it, or not, to release these sort of titles region free? That way i am sure many people in other regions would snap these up on Blu ray definitely.

region free is nearly impossible. All contracts legally tie you down to a region and breaking them is breaking the contract.

Remember the sales agents want to sell their title to as many territories as possible and if some distribution company is releasing region free then the title is worth less to other territories, so it's obviously not in their best interest and therefore they put it in the contracts as such.

The only way you could legally release region free would be to buy multiple or all territories for a film, but then the price would shoot up by a mile!

[jonboy24]

Originally Posted by Mansinthe

there are a lot of movie fans in germany that import movies from all around the world only to get a steelbook they are never gonna open, or get a uncut movie that wont be avaible here or is even banned (amazon.co.uk for example wont shipped tetsuo to germany becouse of part 2 ^^)

so yeah would be probably a small number of customers but they would still bring in money. but i dont know if its worth the extra fee for these rights to add multiple subs.

but asian cinema is doing good in germany ! you should take a look at the output splendid has each month of new and expensiv korean movies and japanese horror stuff + chinese fantasy movies.

add a steelbook or a digipack and they pay good money for such a movie, even if its cut ! (reign of assassins was released cut here, but since it was a steelbook )

but probably it would be to expensiv to do anyway....

Do any of the German releases have english subs? If yes, then I may be interested

[Mansinthe]

Originally Posted by jonboy24

Do any of the German releases have english subs? If yes, then I may be interested

most dont.

[Pooch]

Hi,

Adam, first of all, let me just say a big Thank You for actually coming on to the Forums and posting a response. It is appreciated, and I think it shows a lot, when the studio boss (for want of a better word) is willing to come into the public domain, and engage with their customers.

Secondly, I want to apologise if any of what I have written came across in any way as offensive or rude. That was absolutely never my intention, so I hope you will accept my apology nonetheless.

Originally Posted by thirdwindowfilms

Yes, I like to distribute films I like, because I am not setup in some sort of purely commercial 'numbers' enterprise, and this whole company is setup with my passion and love for promoting ALL genres of Asian cinema to the West, and with the hope to change people's perception of what Asian cinema is. I understand that this can be thought of as 'naive', and maybe it is, but I cannot work without passion or else I have no enthusiasm and therefore cannot truly market a film.

There's nothing wrong with trying to be different; for trying to be unique and only selling items that you are 100% personally behind. It's probably the best way to sell things. The more passionate, the more people will gravitate towards you.

The only problem I see with this, is that you are a small, niche label, and your sales are low. Low sales, means small amounts of cash. And small amounts of cash, means it's going to be extremely tough for you to try and step into a field where you have the likes of Palisades Tartan, Artificial Eye, Eureka/Masters Of Cinema and/or Arrow who are pretty big labels with a lot of money and/or clout behind them, all aiming to stop you.

As much as it's great only releasing stuff you are 100% behind, the sad fact is, I think you do need to consider releasing a few titles each year, that do sell better, and that do make you a bit of money, to help boost your cash-flow, and boost your brand. It's great being unique, novel, original, but not if it means you are going to be a "dead" brand within a matter of months.

I don't want to see your label disappear. But I also can't afford to buy all of the titles you release, just because you like them and think they are great. If I'm honest here, I'm worried that if you stick to releasing only movies you personally like, Third Window Films may not be around for much longer.

Clearly, the people in this thread want your label (and you) to survive. But the economic times you and we find ourselves in, are extremely tough. If you don't increase your sales, you are going to be extinct, which is bad news for you, for me, and for those of us who love your label.

You've already had to cease theatrical distribution, because of the high-costs of BBFC classification, as well as poor ticket sales from the likes of the Prince Charles Cinema in Leicester Square, London, because they only wanted to programme your films for a week, and then most of those showings were in the daytime, when few people were able to see the film. So, I would really hate it, if your home-viewing distribution similarly dried-up.

Originally Posted by thirdwindowfilms

Quoting POOCH - "If no one knows about these films, and no one in the mainstream media is willing to advertise, talk about, or write-reviews-of these films, then it's down to Adam to promote the hell out of them, to try and gain sales. But PR and promotions, takes time and money. Both of which, Adam seems unwilling to invest in, because he can't really afford to."

That was a poor choice of words, on my part. So again, my apologies. The problem I see, is that whilst it's all well-and-good advertising in the likes of SIGHT & SOUND or LITTLE WHITE LIES (both publications that I buy), but adverts don't in-and-of themselves help customers choose a film. One way to maybe combat things might be for you to create a YouTube Channel on your own, and then post all the trailers to all of your films - past and present - so that people can see them and comment on them. It shouldn't cost you much to do this, if anything at all, other than time, and it would be a better way in my view of reaching a bigger audience.

Not everyone lives in London, so advertising in the Evening Standard, or around the London Underground is great for Londoners, or people who live/work there, but what about the other 98% of the country who don't?

Originally Posted by thirdwindowfilms

It's very hard to get films into cinemas for that press, especially with the BBFC fees and the fact that Cineworld have taken over Picturehouse who in turn were vacuuming up indie cinemas across the UK, so it's not easy even being willing to lose LOTS of money. Things are a lot more complicated than you think.

I accept that the BBFC fees means it's hard for anyone other than major distributors to get into cinemas, but I would vehemently disagree that Picturehouse were "vacuuming up indie cinemas". If anything, Picturehouses has saved many small, independent cinemas, and made them more profitable. Thus, my local Picturehouse cinema is now a three-screener, compared to the old one-screener that it used to be, so has the luxury of being able to screen the blockbusters that make profits, which in turns helps fund the screenings of rare, unusual, foreign-language titles from companies such as yourself. Also, there are more independent cinemas now, than there were a few years ago, across a wider proportion of the UK, thanks to Picturehouses.

Most cities only have the multiplex chains. The likes of Cineworld, Odeon and their ilk would never touch a foreign-language film, unless it was a major seller, e.g. something like AMELIE, CINEMA PARADISO, or THE ARTIST. They merely jump on the band-wagon, but it is the Picturehouses and the Curzon chains that support World Cinema and take the gambles that the chains would never dream of doing.

Originally Posted by thirdwindowfilms

On a note regarding TETSUO 3 [snip]

Thank You for clarifying some of the points. I still think that just because you don't like Part 3, that that should be a reason not to distribute it, but the rest of your justifications are. So, at least we now know where we stand on that film.

Originally Posted by thirdwindowfilms

Of course i'd love to release some older classics, even some older obscure classics, but it's really not as easy to think that "that film is old and obscure so therefore it must be easy and cheap to release" -it's really not as easy as that.

That's helpful to know, but there must be some older, reasonably good films that could be considered for release, and might be able to be licensed/acquired for a reasonable fee, no?


Lastly:

Originally Posted by thirdwindowfilms

Maybe I've focused more on obscure titles and become disillusioned, but I'm trying very hard to open up people's eyes to ALL genres of Asian cinema so I hope that people don't just focus on the same old same old. I don't want any sort of problems with anyone, so I hope we can have a discussion about these things, but I just want to try and clarify some things as it seems like I'm being attacked when information is just plain wrong or miscued.

I don't think you are disillusioned. I'm just concerned that sticking to your chosen modus-operandi may not be helpful in the long-term, if sales don't improve, because too many people feel that your range of titles is too eclectic, too obscure, and too risky. I would hope that no one - myself included - has made you feel like we're attacking you, because that was never our intentions, and if you felt like we were attacking you, then my most humble apologies, because that was absoluletely NOT our intention.

We are merely all deeply concerned fans, concerned for your label's survival, in an increasingly difficult and competitive market. We want you to be a success. We want you to continue releasing daring, provocative, contentious, controversial and edgy films.

I just think that sometimes, you need to step back, assess your intentions against what the market is willing to take, and try to find a comfortable fit that meets half-way. I really do feel, that to continue, you need to reconsider your choice on not releasing more commercial films. Even if you released only one (more) commercial choice, for every three of your non-commercial films, hopefully the sales of the former, would aid the sales of the latter.

And that's got to be good business sense, hasn't it? Best Wishes for you and Third Window Film's future, and I really do hope that you will come back onto the Blu-Ray.com Forums every now-and-again, and keep in touch. Any one of us would love to help tend your label, and help boost it in anyway we can, so please use us to bounce ideas off. If we can help, we will.


Pooch

[Yami]

I thank Adam for his post. It's always good to get some industry input in here and I hope it generates more discussion.

I think it's more difficult to ascertain what will and will not sell than us cinephiles assume. MoC recently said they're going to let the licence to the Mizoguchis lapse and outside of Kurosawa (and perhaps Ozu) it's hard to think of any selection of films more firmly embedded in the canon of Asian cinema than the work of that master.

[Mansinthe]

classic movies from Mizoguchi / kurosawa / ozu etc are probably very very expensiv to license. MoC couldnt probably do that without being part of a bigger label like Eureka that sells alot other stuff as well.


maybe the kurosawa kyoshi DVD double feature will do well and we get more of his older movies at least on DVD !

and i cant wait to get my hands on "tokyo fist" and "bullet ballet".


@adam
would doing dual format release be something for thirdwindow films?

[thirdwindowfilms]

Dear Pooch (and everyone) -

thanks for the response and hopefully we can all discuss further and see what can be done on all aspects, but just want to clear up a couple more things if you don't mind.

Originally Posted by Pooch

The only problem I see with this, is that you are a small, niche label, and your sales are low. Low sales, means small amounts of cash. And small amounts of cash, means it's going to be extremely tough for you to try and step into a field where you have the likes of Palisades Tartan, Artificial Eye, Eureka/Masters Of Cinema and/or Arrow who are pretty big labels with a lot of money and/or clout behind them, all aiming to stop you.

- Remember that if you don't go up against bigger companies, then you don't have competition. The reason why Asian comedies do well for me is that there is NO competition and therefore prices are cheaper, margins are better, and the bigger companies don't aim to stop us. We're not in the same field as those companies, and that's why we can survive. If we start releasing the type of titles which you suggest, then we are going into that field and it would be more expensive and harder. Look what happened to Cine-Asia...

Remember sales are relative to the cost of release.

A film costing XXXXX amount would need many sales to reach the same profit as a film which only cost X and had low sales. It's all relative. So "small amounts of cash" can also come from selling 30,000 copies of a very expensive film as the profit margin of a very cheap film selling 3,000 copies would be the same.

Originally Posted by Pooch

create a YouTube Channel on your own, and then post all the trailers to all of your films - past and present - so that people can see them and comment on them.
Not everyone lives in London, so advertising in the Evening Standard, or around the London Underground is great for Londoners, or people who live/work there, but what about the other 98% of the country who don't?

http://www.youtube.com/thirdwindowfilms - been there a while, more than 1.5 million views

bigger magazines like EMPIRE and TOTAL FILM have a pretty big readership across the whole of the UK, so we advertise in them a lot along with Sight and Sound, Little White Lies, Vice Magazine, Neo and the rest. We also advertise on many UK websites such as MSN and YAHOO which are pretty big I believe. To be honest though, only so much can be done and it's more cost effective to market in certain London only advertising. Not to say that all the above plus our Social Networking sites don't reach all of the UK, but it's not cheap to buy an advertisement in the Oxford Herald whose reach would be VERY limited regarding its audience who might watch an Asian film, but in London you have a much better chance of doing better with your money if you're talking about specific advertising, so it's actually not cost effective to do as such, so if we're talking about running a business properly then one does need to take some thing into consideration as well. Of course will take your advice to hand though as it's always good to hear the opinions of others.

Originally Posted by Pooch

That's helpful to know, but there must be some older, reasonably good films that could be considered for release, and might be able to be licensed/acquired for a reasonable fee, no?

Yes, we've just released Eyes of the Spider and Serpent's Path, but they were not cheap. We've also got Tokyo Fist and Bullet Ballet coming up in the next few months, so we are considering titles. Of course we're considering titles left, right and centre, but please take into consideration that older titles aren't as easy to release as people think. Japanese and Hong Kong older titles are exceptionally hard as they tend to be owned by companies who have huge catalogues and don't like doing small deals due to the paperwork involved. Companies like MOC buy catalogues of directors from companies, and that's how they are able to secure Kurosawa, Ozu, etc. Cine-Asia bought catalogues of old martial arts films and that's how they were able to get what they did, but it's not easy to release 10 films from 1 director or 1 style unless you're a big company that have the manpower and money to do as such. I cannot just buy a catalogue of titles as I don't have any staff to handle such work, and taking on staff costs a lot of money, plus time, plus it would turn the company around, so there are so many factors that need to be in place before doing as such.

Releasing 1 commercial film per 3 non-commercial is of course a good idea, but it all depends on what you consider to be 'commercial'? That 1 commercial title may cost a huge amount of money, and therefore a very large risk involved which could cause even more problems. The people who sell commercial films do so knowing they can make money, and therefore want a lot of money for them. I've been trying to find a balance. For example FOR LOVE'S SAKE is a very 'commercial' film. It's a super big budget from a big director which played at the Cannes Film Festival and starring a big name cast. But then again LOVE EXPOSURE was NOT a commercial film, but it made huge amounts of money because it cost nothing and was unknown. So it's hard to find what everyone thinks is best.


Of course, we all want to see more quality Asian cinema, so I hope we can help spread the word on ALL sorts of Asian cinema. With more people talking then there will be more growth. Hopefully some of the bigger companies with big money can release a film which will get people into the smaller titles. Maybe I'm naive or idealistic, but my dream is that people understand that there is much more coming out from Asia than long-haired ghost films or low-budget splatter horror or classic ozu films and watches everything in between. Of course it's idealistic, but hopefully we can all try!

[SimBelm]

Originally Posted by Yami

I thank Adam for his post. It's always good to get some industry input in here and I hope it generates more discussion.

I think it's more difficult to ascertain what will and will not sell than us cinephiles assume. MoC recently said they're going to let the licence to the Mizoguchis lapse and outside of Kurosawa (and perhaps Ozu) it's hard to think of any selection of films more firmly embedded in the canon of Asian cinema than the work of that master.

Thinking about this made me wonder if people who only buy strictly canonical films tend to care less about the advantages of Blu-ray over DVD?

[Pooch]

Hi Adam,

Thanks again for your post, elaborating on some more of the issues/points that I raised.


Pooch

[Yami]

Originally Posted by SimBelm

Thinking about this made me wonder if people who only buy strictly canonical films tend to care less about the advantages of Blu-ray over DVD?

I'm not sure about that. After all, MoC did take the opportunity to upgrade their Mizoguchis before they lose the rights.

[Mansinthe]

maybe they are trying to get rid of the first 2 bluray releases by putting these movies in the "box set" only release with the new blurays.

if a label loses the license to movies are they still allowed to sell the remaining stock?



@adam

i think you are doing a awesome job, and i hope you can keep doing your work the way you like!
without thirdwindow i would have never get the chance to enjoy movies like you released in the UK. most labels seem to avoid asian movies that are not "mainstream". and only go for the horror / gore / revenge stuff.
cant wait for your new korean comedy movies to be released.

no wonder a lot of people think all japanese are sick and into hentai.

[thirdwindowfilms]

Originally Posted by Pooch

Hi Adam,

Thanks again for your post, elaborating on some more of the issues/points that I raised.


Pooch

You're welcome to get in touch anytime! Just email me at adam@thirdwindowfilms.com as don't always check this forum!

thanks again for all the input!

[thirdwindowfilms]

Originally Posted by Mansinthe

maybe they are trying to get rid of the first 2 bluray releases by putting these movies in the "box set" only release with the new blurays.

if a label loses the license to movies are they still allowed to sell the remaining stock?

In contracts most companies have a 6 month 'sell-off' period in which they are allowed to sell off their stock. What most companies do (and this is why you still sell many copies of older Tartan titles still about) is that they manufacture many copies before the license period ends, and then sell them dirt cheap to a separate sales company or retailer who continue to sell them. They cannot manufacture any copies or make any direct sales after the sell-off period, but it doesn't stop them from making as much money as they can beforehand

[Yami]

It's DVD-only but how did Isn't Anyone Alive do? I'd love to see some of Ishii's other works get a release.