Concern over 4k and replacing

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

I should be the one asking what you are talking about. I stated a prediction, and then later defended the basis of that prediction. I'm not the one parked here correcting every prediction that is different from mine. That would be you, him, and Ray that are doing that.

It is not a "cheap shot" to call it trolling when someone makes an insubstantial and blatantly provocative wise-arse remark, as you did; it is simply an observation of fact. It is very obvious from your activity in this thread, that you are just looking for conflict and argument. Sad... just sad.

The three of you guys have clearly taken it upon yourselves to install as the guardian trolls of this thread, and "correct" everybody else who doesn't share your outlook on 4k, as if you guys know something that the rest of us don't. Congratulations, your troll committee owns the thread...

as I said, you need to get a better hobby.

Yet, you use a sarcasm smiley in your next post?
No one is telling anyone how to think. This is a forum, people are entitled to their opinions. If you think 4k will be a massive flop you are entitled to a brave statement, same as Myself.

[bobbydrugar]

Why do people want it to fail soo badly. That benefits nobody. We should be encouraging it if for no other reason then to get better Masters made in the Future and who knows maybe a few catalog titles will actually get the treatment they deserve.

T

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by pmac

I'm guessing that the folks that state that 4k will be huge guaranteed also bet on HDDVD, I bought an HDDVD player originally, I guessed wrong.

It's ridiculous to speculate on that format yet, they don't even have a standardized media yet for the masses (that I'm aware of), and downloading will not likely be a decent option due to the size of the downloads. (I'm not trashing dl service, but face it, most people have dl caps, mine is 150 gigs a month, that wouldn't get me many movies in 4k ...or HD Audio...currently 1080p downloads don't come with HD audio am i right?).

And for those that seem to want to argue the fact that it will be huge, like it actually will make them better people because they "guess" right...you have no life, because no one really cares. If it takes off, good, if it becomes a niche market so what. Good for those that can afford to replace all their equipment and start fresh.

Originally Posted by bobbydrugar

Why do people want it to fail soo badly. That benefits nobody. We should be encouraging it if for no other reason then to get better Masters made in the Future and who knows maybe a few catalog titles will actually get the treatment they deserve.

T

Exactly, progress!

[KRW1]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Who said anything about progress stopping? Laserdisc was a niche format, and it didn't catch on with the mass-market... that wasn't progress stopping, that was one particular product not catching on, while other similar products did, because they launched with better timing and support regarding the consumer market. That is what is being said now: not that blu-ray is the end of the line, but rather that the market will not shift to adopt a 4k standard in the immediate future. Who knows, maybe 4k gets leapfrogged by something better when the market is finally ready for a major format shift. This "progress stopping" rhetoric is a straw-man argument that undermines your own position.



You don't know that. That's just a guess. Don't confuse your own enthusiasm for the disposition of the entire consumer market. Show me 50 million 4k TV sets in American homes in the next few years, and I'll say your exuberance was right. I'd bet real money that it's not happening for at least another 7 years, probably longer.

If you've read my other posts, you'll see I have very little enthusiasm for it for myself but I can see the way the market is heading and the way people are using 4k in everyday life even now as 'the next thing'. And, no, I don't work in the industry.

Of course it's going to be niche to start with, everything is. I say 3-10 years, you say 7 years, possibly longer, I think you're agreeing with me, no? One way or another, it's definitely coming.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by pmac

I'm guessing that the folks that state that 4k will be huge guaranteed also bet on HDDVD, I bought an HDDVD player originally, I guessed wrong.

At seven years in Blu-ray seems to average about 35% of the disc sales. IMO, 4K will be a subset of that group, I do not see very many going from DVD to 4K anything. HDTV had a lot of help, namely form broadcaster (CBS, PBS, ABC and FOX) and mandatory ATSC transmission.

currently 1080p downloads don't come with HD audio am i right?).

AFAIK, no 1080, download or streaming service offers lossless audio. Lossless is in the CFF spec but I wager no one will use it when/if the CFF comes into use.

Not sure how the FMP-X1UD is handling audio as in it MUST be connected to a Sony TV (or projector). Even if there were a HDMI 2.0 audio processor available the FMP would not work with it.

ADD:

Missed the following from the Sony site:

HDMI™ Audio Output(s) : 1 (Rear)

They do not say what version of HDMI but I assume a version < 2.0. By their wording this spigot must be audio only.

[KRW1]

Actually, no I predicted HD DVD would fail as the lack of region coding made it popular amongst enthusiasts but the kiss of death for anyone trying to release a film on a small budget. A bigger concern was there being two formats.

(disclaimer- I also predicted HD in general would fail in about 2006, as it didn't look any different to PC resolutions and I thought we'd all be going streaming and downloading after DVD so I know how it is to be wrong)

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by bobbydrugar

Why do people want it to fail soo badly...

Insecurity due to considerable investment in HD which requires constant reassurance for some… and, probably general upgrade fatigue by others even if they do have the discretionary spending needed for 4K displays, players and receivers.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Exactly, progress!

Right on Steed.

I, myself would like someday to at least have the choice of sensory superpowers….and 20,000 nits displays - http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/08/do...tST7fAV6FAq.99

[raygendreau]

I just spent some time on Amazon looking at the 19 4K UHD sets they are currently selling. The cheap Seikis 39" and 50" are the most popular. (78 reviews)
The Samsung models are next in popularity, followed by the new Sonys.

I have started a dialogue with someone that purchased the 65" Sony on 10/6.
He is updating his review every few days.


"Hi Matthew, Thanks for the updates. After Earth which was shot natively in 4K has been released. Do you have it available for download from Sony 4K service? What is your connection speed and how long does it take you to download a 4K movie? What 4K movies or TV series (Breaking Bad?) have you purchased/rented. How would you compare the picture quality of the 4K movies on your media player with an upscaled Blu-ray? Thanks."


In reply to your post on Oct 9, 2013 10:52:14 AM PDT

Matthew J. Liptak says:

"I have seen it on the 4K site but have not downloaded it yet. My connection speed is 75mbps and to download a movie it takes about 30 minutes. I have purchased Glory, This is the End so far. Plus this comes with 10 movies for free including Amazing Spiderman and Bad Teacher and The Karate Kid to name a few which all look spectacular in 4K. To tell you the truth the difference is slight since this TV upscales Blue Rays to a bit higher definition than HD. I would say not only is image flawless but sound is even more improved in 4K. Tomorrow I get this TV professionally calibrated so I will let you know the difference after that."


Looks like the 4K downloads are available the same time the BD is released. I like that!

Edit:

"Thanks again for your speedy reply. A few more questions. Is a continuous internet connection required to play your downloads. If your internet is interrupted does playback stop? Has Sony established a fee for the download service? Do you expect to run into caps from your ISP because of the size of the downloads?"





In reply to an earlier post on Oct 9, 2013 12:03:00 PM PDT
Last edited by the author 1 hour ago

Matthew J. Liptak says:

Yes it is. You have to have an internet connection for this media player to even function. Your playback wont stop but it will cause the player to go into a standby mode. I always have this connected to an Ethernet port at my wireless bridge extender. Sony charges $29 to buy movies and $8 to rent. My ISP is Verizon and no they do not cap me for downloads. I pay a monthly Fios fee so there is no cap.

Of all the questions, why not buy this set? You will not be sorry. Why the hesitation?

[Wendell R. Breland]

For those that count, a 50 GB movie file would take 89 minutes to download with a constant speed of 75 Mbps (yea, that will be the day on a 75 Mbps service)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Not sure how the FMP-X1UD is handling audio as in it MUST be connected to a Sony TV (or projector). Even if there were a HDMI 2.0 audio processor available the FMP would not work with it.

ADD:

Missed the following from the Sony site:



They do not say what version of HDMI but I assume a version < 2.0. By their wording this spigot must be audio only.

The X1 outputs PCM in either 2.0 or 5.1, with pic and sound thru HDMI 1, or with split pic (HDMI 1) and sound (HDMI 2) for those whose amps don't have HDCP 2.x compatibility - which is pretty much everyone!

Audio is another factor as to why BD 4K is taking its sweet time. Our resident doomsayer points to a lack of spec as evidence that there will be no physical 4K format, but even when the video side of things gets sorted out (which Penton alluded to in another thread) there's still audio to deal with. The BDA are having to consider new sound formats, compression systems, content protection etc etc, and that shit takes time because they want to get it right.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

I just spent some time on Amazon looking at the 19 4K UHD sets they are currently selling. The cheap Seikis 39" and 50" are the most popular. (78 reviews)
The Samsung models are next in popularity, followed by the new Sonys.

I have started a dialogue with someone that purchased the 65" Sony on 10/6.
He is updating his review every few days.


"Hi Matthew, Thanks for the updates. After Earth which was shot natively in 4K has been released. Do you have it available for download from Sony 4K service? What is your connection speed and how long does it take you to download a 4K movie? What 4K movies or TV series (Breaking Bad?) have you purchased/rented. How would you compare the picture quality of the 4K movies on your media player with an upscaled Blu-ray? Thanks."


In reply to your post on Oct 9, 2013 10:52:14 AM PDT

Matthew J. Liptak says:

"I have seen it on the 4K site but have not downloaded it yet. My connection speed is 75mbps and to download a movie it takes about 30 minutes. I have purchased Glory, This is the End so far. Plus this comes with 10 movies for free including Amazing Spiderman and Bad Teacher and The Karate Kid to name a few which all look spectacular in 4K. To tell you the truth the difference is slight since this TV upscales Blue Rays to a bit higher definition than HD. I would say not only is image flawless but sound is even more improved in 4K. Tomorrow I get this TV professionally calibrated so I will let you know the difference after that."


Looks like the 4K downloads are available the same time the BD is released. I like that!

Edit:

"Thanks again for your speedy reply. A few more questions. Is a continuous internet connection required to play your downloads. If your internet is interrupted does playback stop? Has Sony established a fee for the download service? Do you expect to run into caps from your ISP because of the size of the downloads?"





In reply to an earlier post on Oct 9, 2013 12:03:00 PM PDT
Last edited by the author 1 hour ago

Matthew J. Liptak says:

Yes it is. You have to have an internet connection for this media player to even function. Your playback wont stop but it will cause the player to go into a standby mode. I always have this connected to an Ethernet port at my wireless bridge extender. Sony charges $29 to buy movies and $8 to rent. My ISP is Verizon and no they do not cap me for downloads. I pay a monthly Fios fee so there is no cap.

Of all the questions, why not buy this set? You will not be sorry. Why the hesitation?

Well, the guy does say that the difference is slight, which just ads another notch to me questioning if upgrading would be worth it, but it otherwise sounds like he is happy with his purchase, so good for him on that.

I do question how the sound can be "improved". We already have lossless audio with many Blu-Rays... you can't really get much better than lossless.

I don't like the idea that the machines needs to constant internet connection or else it goes into standby mode. I'm already leary of downloads, I certainly wouldn't support that.

[bobbydrugar]

They could be sampling the Analog into digital PCM or LPCM with a higher sampling rate. The term lossless only has meaning in the digital realm of processing. there is actually quite a bit of data that is lost in the conversion from original analog source to digital capture.

Just a thought
T

[bobbydrugar]

Also just a PS. He also mentioned in the e-mail chain that the set had not been calibrated yet so there may be more differences especially once the color gamut is configured properly as 4K has a wider color pallet and can in theory more accurately reproduce more colors.

T

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by bobbydrugar

Why do people want it to fail soo badly?

Why assume that the reason someone believes 4k is not going to take over the home video market is because they want it to fail?

I think I've read almost every post in this thread, and I haven't seen a single one yet that said they "want" it to fail.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by bobbydrugar

Also just a PS. He also mentioned in the e-mail chain that the set had not been calibrated yet so there may be more differences especially once the color gamut is configured properly as 4K has a wider color pallet and can in theory more accurately reproduce more colors.

T

The bottom line is, we can only know once we set it up in our home cinema. I can't take too much notice of second hand accounts/opinions.

[KRW1]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Audio is another factor as to why BD 4K is taking its sweet time. Our resident doomsayer points to a lack of spec as evidence that there will be no physical 4K format, but even when the video side of things gets sorted out (which Penton alluded to in another thread) there's still audio to deal with. The BDA are having to consider new sound formats, compression systems, content protection etc etc, and that shit takes time because they want to get it right.

I see the lack of 4k BD at the moment as simply a case of 'what's the rush?'. If I had any power over the entertainment world there's simply no way I'd announce a successor to BD near any sort of holiday period for fear of scaring away the consumer from what's already available.

And, yeah, it all takes time. I don't think we'll see an announcement this financial year but very close to the start of the next.

[bobbydrugar]

Isn't that actually how most knowledge is spread though. Reviews, experience and word of mouth. I would think it kind of silly to make all judgments based on having to purchase everything so I could see it myself. at some point you need to be open to the possibility that other people may have valuable information that can help in making a decision.

t

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by bobbydrugar

The term lossless only has meaning in the digital realm of processing. there is actually quite a bit of data that is lost in the conversion from original analog source to digital capture.

Actually we had homing pigeons train all of our digital devices so any data that got lost could eventually find its way home .

Seriously, not sure what you are trying to say. Digital allowed us to capture, manipulate, store and retrieve audio & video in a quality that could never be achieved in our old all analog plant. For example, on our mobile HD production unit we had a Studer D-950. This console had all the analog mic pre-amps in a box that was connected to the console via fiber optic. This alleviated the need for long mic cables and reduced the possibility of ground loops.

Just curious, have you noticed missing noses, teeth, eyes, etc. in digital video streams?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by bobbydrugar

Isn't that actually how most knowledge is spread though. Reviews, experience and word of mouth. I would think it kind of silly to make all judgments based on having to purchase everything so I could see it myself. at some point you need to be open to the possibility that other people may have valuable information that can help in making a decision.

t

Yes,but if I had listened to some I wouldn't have upgraded to bluray in the first place. My experience was wow. Some people said they couldn't see any difference between bluray and dvd. That fact simply stunned me. So, my experience was a world away from what was being said and written by some.