Universal to make DTS-HD MA the standard for Blu-ray

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by Amel

I am not sure when you cought up with bluray, but a year ago when we were discussing warner, most of their bluray titles were DD and poor video quality...I have some of the titles, I've seen and heard it.

I got into Blu-ray fairly recently -right after Warner Bros. announced they were going Blu-ray exclusive.

I know many previous Warner Bros. Blu-ray titles were limited to only lossy Dolby Digital 5.1 audio and had some video quality problems due to the lower bit rates tuned for HD-DVD.

My point is some folks in this thread are gushing over Universal Studios as if the company is somehow in better standing than Warner Bros. just because of some unconfirmed report the company may be supporting DTS-HD Master Audio on its upcoming Blu-ray releases.

I don't think their perspective is very clear on the matter and certain critical points are being ignored in the Warner bashing and Universal Studios butt kissing.

Point #1: Universal Studios has never released anything on Blu-ray before. Instead Universal supported the arch rival of Blu-ray and rooted for the demise of Blu-ray Disc.

Point #2: Warner Bros. has been a long time supporter of Blu-ray. Although many of their previous discs had compromises made, Warner Bros. tried harder than just about any other movie studio to figure out how to get the general public to adopt high definition movies. They supported both HD-DVD and Blu-ray. They even single handedly promoted the TotalHD format. When they figured out supporting both formats wasn't going to get customers off the fences they acted aggressively again in the favor of Blu-ray. For crying out loud, where is the freaking gratitude?

Point #3: It has not yet been fully confirmed Universal Studios will indeed be using DTS-HD Master Audio on their releases. Everyone is going by what some other guy wrote. It makes sense for Universal to use DTS-HD because of their long standing association with DTS. However, many of their DVDs were released only with Dolby Digital. AFAIK, their HD-DVD titles were mostly Dolby Digital Plus and not DTS. So until I see an official press release from Universal Studios or at least some detailed specs on their upcoming Blu-ray releases, I'm not going to get my hopes up completely for the DTS-HD thing to come to pass.

Point #4: Lately Warner Bros. has been increasingly using Dolby TrueHD on new Blu-ray releases. Soon Warner Bros. will be done with their cycle of lower bit rate movies that accommodate HD-DVD. Warner Bros. will be more free to create high bit rate video encodings and use lossless or uncompressed audio on all releases, not just the high profile ones like they're doing right now.

Point #5: While complaints run wild about Warner's low bit rate, HD-DVD friendly "smoothie" video encodings, the fact remains their cycle of HD-DVD friendly fare is coming to an end. OTOH, Universal Studios still has a large backlog of previous "red" releases. While people are kissing Universal's butt, where's the guarantee they're not just going to port a previous, low bit rate HD-DVD encoding onto Blu-ray?

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

My point is some folks in this thread are gushing over Universal Studios as if the company is somehow in better standing than Warner Bros. just because of some unconfirmed report the company may be supporting DTS-HD Master Audio on its upcoming Blu-ray releases.

I think you're missing the point. Universal is not in "better standing" than WB, it's just that they are doing something that WB should be doing. Making "lossless" mandatory on all releases. Currently, all "major" studios (with the eception of WB) are doing this. Do I expect WB to start mandatory "lossless" tracks, yes, but as of now, they are running behind the rest of them.

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Point #1: Universal Studios has never released anything on Blu-ray before. Instead Universal supported the arch rival of Blu-ray and rooted for the demise of Blu-ray Disc.

They picked a side and they stuck with it. Stupid? Yes, but I've been waiting on Universal to release on Blu-ray... and unlike Paramount (who stabbed Blu-ray consumers in the back) I have no ill feelings toward Universal at all.

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Point #2: Warner Bros. has been a long time supporter of Blu-ray. Although many of their previous discs had compromises made, Warner Bros. tried harder than just about any other movie studio to figure out how to get the general public to adopt high definition movies. They supported both HD-DVD and Blu-ray. They even single handedly promoted the TotalHD format. When they figured out supporting both formats wasn't going to get customers off the fences they acted aggressively again in the favor of Blu-ray. For crying out loud, where is the freaking gratitude?

Regardless of their "stupidity" in promoting the TotalHD format, I agree with all of the above and I've commended them for doing the above many times... but what has that got to do with their commitment to "lossless" audio?

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Point #3: It has not yet been fully confirmed Universal Studios will indeed be using DTS-HD Master Audio on their releases. Everyone is going by what some other guy wrote. It makes sense for Universal to use DTS-HD because of their long standing association with DTS. However, many of their DVDs were released only with Dolby Digital. AFAIK, their HD-DVD titles were mostly Dolby Digital Plus and not DTS. So until I see an official press release from Universal Studios or at least some detailed specs on their upcoming Blu-ray releases, I'm not going to get my hopes up completely for the DTS-HD thing to come to pass.

So far, their first D&D (Day & Date) title "Doomsday" is the only one to have their specs revealed, but it has DTS-HD MA listed.

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Point #4: Lately Warner Bros. has been increasingly using Dolby TrueHD on new Blu-ray releases. Soon Warner Bros. will be done with their cycle of lower bit rate movies that accommodate HD-DVD. Warner Bros. will be more free to create high bit rate video encodings and use lossless or uncompressed audio on all releases, not just the high profile ones like they're doing right now.

And then credit will be given where credit is due. Until then, they remain behind the rest of the studios.

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Point #5: While complaints run wild about Warner's low bit rate, HD-DVD friendly "smoothie" video encodings, the fact remains their cycle of HD-DVD friendly fare is coming to an end. OTOH, Universal Studios still has a large backlog of previous "red" releases. While people are kissing Universal's butt, where's the guarantee they're not just going to port a previous, low bit rate HD-DVD encoding onto Blu-ray?

A couple of upcoming releases have been confirmed to be new encodings ("The Mummy" and "The Mummy Returns"), it appears that Universal will be adding lossless to their titles, and surprise surprise, Universal actually has some decent "ports" available as well (though hopefully with "lossless" audio), and they have been confirmed to be working on not just new encodings for some of their releases, but new masters for some of their titles as well.

~Alan

[WickyWoo]

Point #3: It has not yet been fully confirmed Universal Studios will indeed be using DTS-HD Master Audio on their releases. Everyone is going by what some other guy wrote. It makes sense for Universal to use DTS-HD because of their long standing association with DTS. However, many of their DVDs were released only with Dolby Digital. AFAIK, their HD-DVD titles were mostly Dolby Digital Plus and not DTS. So until I see an official press release from Universal Studios or at least some detailed specs on their upcoming Blu-ray releases, I'm not going to get my hopes up completely for the DTS-HD thing to come to pass.

That they have chosen DTS HDMA as their default audio is right in their press release

[kknight]

I was watching Superbad and Afro the Movie (Japanese version), both had options for DTS MA / PCM or Dolby TrueHD and I can say is, Dolby TrueHD doesn't sound as good as the others... For anyone to say they're the same, nope that's not true at all...

I wish studios would just get rid of the Dolby TrueHD for good and just keep it at PCM or DTS MA.

[WickyWoo]

I was watching Superbad and Afro the Movie (Japanese version), both had options for DTS MA / PCM or Dolby TrueHD and I can say is, Dolby TrueHD doesn't sound as good as the others... For anyone to say they're the same, nope that's not true at all...

Did you volume match?

And you need to taste test blind.

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

That they have chosen DTS HDMA as their default audio is right in their press release

Link please?

[FilmMixer]

Originally Posted by kknight

I was watching Superbad and Afro the Movie (Japanese version), both had options for DTS MA / PCM or Dolby TrueHD and I can say is, Dolby TrueHD doesn't sound as good as the others... For anyone to say they're the same, nope that's not true at all...

I mixed Superbad, and did the mastering for home video.

I can tell you there is nothing wrong with the TureHD track.

[kknight]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

Did you volume match?

And you need to taste test blind.

Yes I bumped up the volume but the detail level wasn't as good as DTS MA / PCM... Not sure what you mean by test blind.

[BigFoot]

^ Have someone play each track for you without you knowing which one it is and then see if you can tell the difference.

[HDJK]

Originally Posted by FilmMixer

I mixed Superbad, and did the mastering for home video.

I can tell you there is nothing wrong with the TureHD track.

Sorry for the OT, but since you mentioned mastering and apparently were involved in the encoding, can you tell me what the usual approach is for the LFE track? We use the DTS encoder available as a plugin for Nuendo for our Cinema tracks, and it applies bass management (not just for the surrounds).
Is there ever any bass management applied to the lossless tracks? What about DD and DTS?

Thanks for any info.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by kknight

I was watching Superbad and Afro the Movie (Japanese version), both had options for DTS MA / PCM or Dolby TrueHD and I can say is, Dolby TrueHD doesn't sound as good as the others... For anyone to say they're the same, nope that's not true at all...

I wish studios would just get rid of the Dolby TrueHD for good and just keep it at PCM or DTS MA.

1: Afro Samurai is listed as DTS-HD, which is NOT the same as DTS-HD Master Audio. It's lossy compression like Dolby Digital Plus.

2: Superbad is 24 bit with TrueHD and 16 bit on PCM. It appears you like harsher sound?

Originally Posted by kknight

Yes I bumped up the volume but the detail level wasn't as good as DTS MA / PCM... Not sure what you mean by test blind.

"Bumping up" and having the same exact levels are two different things. You should have a sound meter to measure a particular peak.

You also fail to mention your playback chain. Are you really getting TrueHD? Or the core DD track? Which receiver? Standalone? PS3?

Bobby mentioned bumped up bass levels in his Close Encounters test. My test showed them exactly the same. Somewhere the bass management isn't being applied properly.

[WickyWoo]

Yes I bumped up the volume but the detail level wasn't as good as DTS MA / PCM... Not sure what you mean by test blind.

It means that after volume matching, you need to preferably have a double blind test,where neither you or the person changing the "channels" know which is which. I've found that even though output is sonically identical, people who know they're listening to DTS think it's better

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

It means that after volume matching, you need to preferably have a double blind test,where neither you or the person changing the "channels" know which is which. I've found that even though output is sonically identical, people who know they're listening to DTS think it's better

Most people never do this test but EVERY time I've seen it done properly the results almost always go against what the person was preaching before.

It is kind of funny. Recently I did this with the Dave Matthews BD release when a friend wanted to compare the TrueHD to the standard DD track. We didn't do it blind though. I switched between the two and the guys was VERY sincere in his selection that the TrueHD was considerably better sounding. That was until I told him that I never switched the PS3 to LPCM so in every test he was hearing the same Dolby Digital soundtrack!

[Chuey]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Most people never do this test but EVERY time I've seen it done properly the results almost always go against what the person was preaching before.

It is kind of funny. Recently I did this with the Dave Matthews BD release when a friend wanted to compare the TrueHD to the standard DD track. We didn't do it blind though. I switched between the two and the guys was VERY sincere in his selection that the TrueHD was considerably better sounding. That was until I told him that I never switched the PS3 to LPCM so in every test he was hearing the same Dolby Digital soundtrack!

Your experiment concluded that something is absolutely wrong with your listener/object's ear but not anything else.

[WickyWoo]

Your experiment concluded that something is absolutely wrong with your listener/object's ear but not anything else.

Definately

My mother can hear the difference and she's borderline on getting a hearing aid

I've done my own blind test having a friend switch it and I and pick the THD on that disc every time (we did at least half a dozen runs with this and a bunch of other movies.

I've found pretty much by default uncompressed=clearer dialog and much more active subtle noise (murmur in a restaruant for example)

[Kris Deering]

You missed the point. I NEVER switched to Dolby TrueHD. But he thought I did. Time and time again if people do A/B'ing and they know what they are listening to, personal bias is put in (or placebo, however you want to word it). Since he THOUGHT he was hearing a different soundtrack he THOUGHT he heard differences. You are also changing perception when you know you are A/B'ing and at times listening for different things different times. How many times have you taken a hearing exam in one of those scary quiet rooms only to think you heard something when you really didn't. The mind works wonders on this stuff.

Now when I DID actually do a real A/B between the two the difference was obvious. But I also think how obvious these things are depends a lot on the quality of the equipment used and the quality of setting it up properly (calibration, room, person's hearing).

So when you do an A/B of two lossless formats I think it is VERY easy to sneak in some good old fashion placebo effect. Especially since so many people are already so hot to trot with DTS as a whole already, and usually for the wrong reasons.

[Kris Deering]

Jim Dunleavy put together a huge A/B comparison of speaker wires years ago with industry "professionals" and "golden ears" to compare high dollar speaker wire to standard zip cord. He told them he was using A or B and to cite differences. When the test was complete every one of them cited how much better the high dollar cable was only to find out that through the entire test the only thing used was the zip cord. Nice.

[WickyWoo]

Yes, I understand what you did, you're proving the imaginary jump in quality as opposed to actual.

I think it was a coat hanger instead of a zip cord wasn't it?

[Kris Deering]

No, the coat hanger thing was with a dolby digital bitstream going over anything that would conduct it rather than relying on spiffy interconnects.

[kknight]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

"Bumping up" and having the same exact levels are two different things. You should have a sound meter to measure a particular peak.

You also fail to mention your playback chain. Are you really getting TrueHD? Or the core DD track? Which receiver? Standalone? PS3?

Bobby mentioned bumped up bass levels in his Close Encounters test. My test showed them exactly the same. Somewhere the bass management isn't being applied properly.

Playstation 3 with a lossless reciever that I had just bought a few months ago. That's what I'm thinking, maybe I'm not getting the full TrueHD.