Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

Irrespective of the themes, ideas and macro story that Lucas included in the prequels, you have to admit that the execution is pretty poorly done in a lot of areas. The prequel story has a depth and complexity to it that simply wasn't supported by the dialogue, editing and direction in quite a few scenes. Its no wonder that some have tried to edit them (and I think that speaks as much to how much people wanted the prequels to be brilliant) because there are so many little tweaks that could improve pacing and cuts to dialogue that could make it better. I don't hate them and I quite enjoy a lot of what the offer, but they are not in the same league as IV and V - III is probably close to the level of VI but has different issues.

I don't know whether it's because since 1999 people have been telling me what to think about the prequels, that I have to admit this and I have to admit that, that I disagree so strongly with those who feel the OT is superior, or it's simply a question of my own taste and opinion being different to theirs but, either way, I do not accept that the execution of the films was any worse or any better than that of the OT.

I think the existence of the fan edits doesn't say so much about the quality of the prequels rather it has more to do with the advances in technology which allows people to edit films from the comfort of their pc. That and the fact that there are far too many saddos out there with far too much time on their hands I don't think such people wanted the prequels to be brilliant; I think those people think that they themselves are brilliant and they want everyone to know it. It's no more than AV masturbation, really.

I mean, what do we have? A Phantom Menace with no Jar Jar? And Attack Of The Clones where the camera pans down instead of up so that it's in keeping with the other five films, thus completely overlooking the very reason for the camera panning up in the first place - the moron who made that edit clearly hasn't a clue about the film he's messing about with.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

I don't know whether it's because since 1999 people have been telling me what to think about the prequels, that I have to admit this and I have to admit that, that I disagree so strongly with those who feel the OT is superior, or it's simply a question of my own taste and opinion being different to theirs but, either way, I do not accept that the execution of the films was any worse or any better than that of the OT.

I think the existence of the fan edits doesn't say so much about the quality of the prequels rather it has more to do with the advances in technology which allows people to edit films from the comfort of their pc. That and the fact that there are far too many saddos out there with far too much time on their hands I don't think such people wanted the prequels to be brilliant; I think those people think that they themselves are brilliant and they want everyone to know it. It's no more than AV masturbation, really.

I mean, what do we have? A Phantom Menace with no Jar Jar? And Attack Of The Clones where the camera pans down instead of up so that it's in keeping with the other five films, thus completely overlooking the very reason for the camera panning up in the first place - the moron who made that edit clearly hasn't a clue about the film he's messing about with.

I wasn't suggesting the fan edits were good, merely that it showed a desire for the films to be better in their eyes and a love of the SW universe. I actually haven't seen any of them. I don't know many other films where fans do edits like that. Cutting Jar Jar out of TPM isn't what I would do anyway nor would I understand why anyone would pan down rather than up in AOTC.

And no I wasn't suggesting you personally admit they are poor, it was a turn of phrase to express my own opinion. Nor was I saying they were awful - I think they are generally ok, but problematic in a way that the first two original films weren't. Jedi as much as I love it has problems too.

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

And Attack Of The Clones where the camera pans down instead of up so that it's in keeping with the other five films, thus completely overlooking the very reason for the camera panning up in the first place - the moron who made that edit clearly hasn't a clue about the film he's messing about with.

What? Somebody changed that? You got to be kidding me; I loved the fact that it panned up, it was so different, it actually made me think and realize that it correlated perfectly to the structure of ATOC's story. Why are people becoming OCD over these movies, come on!

[aiman04]

Star Wars Movie Discussion

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by peckinpah

But wouldn't that also lead to questions about why Luke says he doesn't remember his real mother? It ends up being a wash.

Fine, so she hides out with the kids, knows (or is paranoid that) she and the kids are in danger, gives up Luke at a young age for his own safety, takes Padme and dies when Padme is three years old.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

But ultimately that's the Force/Religion that has granted him forgiveness not the people. Even in our own society, religion preaches forgiveness for all, that if you confess your sins, you will be redeemed etc.

Really? All religions do that? Or does just your religion do that? I would contend that very few religions do that. And while we're on that topic, if Hitler confessed his sins before shooting himself, should he have been "redeemed"? Should the child rapist or mass murderer who confesses his sins while in prison be "redeemed". Give me a break.

One can make a case that Lucas was actually mocking organized religion in these films since just about everything the Jedi did and every decision they made, regardless of intention, turned out to be wrong. That's why at the end of Episode VI, aside from the force ghosts, there's supposedly only one Jedi left in the galaxy. And if Lucas did this purposely, he deserves a lot more credit and a lot less criticism for sloppy writing than he normally receives.

And if he wasn't mocking religion in Star Wars, who needs enemies when you have friends like Lucas?

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

Archaic in what sense ?? Out of date ? Uneducated ?? Not sure why that is relevant, nor am I suggesting what my point of view is, just that it is a very prevalent reaction in society even today, whether you agree with it or not.

Archaic or not, it illustrates the difference between atonement and redemption they are two different things - one is an active thing you do, one is something you have to be granted by others

Redemption, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder

Redemption certainly is, but there's some things I think any rational person would see as anything but beautiful. For example, what beauty is to be found in some lunatic getting away with murder for 50 years, and dying of natural causes?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

Absolutely. Luke is the one we should aspire to be, the man who can forgive and can transcend.

And I'm a fan of the duel between Palpatine and Yoda in the Senate chamber, too. Literally tearing the place apart whilst, figuratively, the Republic is being torn apart, too.

I do wonder about these people who dismiss the prequels as little more than a load of CGI effects and dodgy dialogue. Have they really watched them and they're just too thick to notice just how much is going on in the films or are they - as I suspect - simply trotting out well-worn phrases like "Mannequin Skywalker" because they read them somewhere on the internet?

I'm on the fence. On the one hand, I dig all of the layers and symbolism and thematic throughlines in the movies, and I love it when something pops into place, sometimes years later; "oh, THAT's why they did that!". But on the other hand, the prequels can't dine out on that alone because they're popular movies, they're meant to be enjoyed there and then as entertainments, not as a labyrinthine treatise on why the Republic went to war which, in my case, needed years of rumination and multiple outside sources (Clone Wars S6 FTW) to make some sense of it all.

Lucas thrilled us with the propulsive storylines of the original movies, and he thought he could have his cake and eat it with the prequels by giving us that complex plot AND a load of action scenes tacked on, but he could never get them to gel properly, if at all. Someone I know described it as an "oil and water" style of filmmaking and he's totally correct because it applies to just about every facet of the prequels. They're kid's films with some insanely goofy characters yet they also stop dead for lengthy introspection about politics and whatnot. They're made with cutting edge 21st century technology and yet the dreadful acting and dialogue is supposed to mirror the hilariously stilted style that was all the rage about 80 years ago.

That's the sort of stylistic gulf that I hope JJ can overcome by telling stories that have a deeper resonance (across 3 films minimum) without sacrificing the drive and energy and wit that made the OT such a joy to sit through.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Really? All religions do that? Or does just your religion do that? I would contend that very few religions do that. And while we're on that topic, if Hitler confessed his sins before shooting himself, should he have been "redeemed"? Should the child rapist or mass murderer who confesses his sins while in prison be "redeemed". Give me a break.

One can make a case that Lucas was actually mocking organized religion in these films since just about everything the Jedi did and every decision they made, regardless of intention, turned out to be wrong. That's why at the end of Episode VI, aside from the force ghosts, there's supposedly only one Jedi left in the galaxy. And if Lucas did this purposely, he deserves a lot more credit and a lot less criticism for sloppy writing than he normally receives.

And if he wasn't mocking religion in Star Wars, who needs enemies when you have friends like Lucas?

I'm not going to pretend that I know every religion but I think that the majority of the major ones preach some form of forgiveness - not necessarily as overt as Christianity. And whether u personally might not think that mass murderer or rapist should be forgiven, that's what they drive at.

Was he mocking organised religion in some way. Perhaps in a sense. But then it's not the themes and ideas or commentary contained in the prequels that are the problem IMO.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I'm on the fence. On the one hand, I dig all of the layers and symbolism and thematic throughlines in the movies, and I love it when something pops into place, sometimes years later; "oh, THAT's why they did that!". But on the other hand, the prequels can't dine out on that alone because they're popular movies, they're meant to be enjoyed there and then as entertainments, not as a labyrinthine treatise on why the Republic went to war which, in my case, needed years of rumination and multiple outside sources (Clone Wars S6 FTW) to make some sense of it all.

Lucas thrilled us with the propulsive storylines of the original movies, and he thought he could have his cake and eat it with the prequels by giving us that complex plot AND a load of action scenes tacked on, but he could never get them to gel properly, if at all. Someone I know described it as an "oil and water" style of filmmaking and he's totally correct because it applies to just about every facet of the prequels. They're kid's films with some insanely goofy characters yet they also stop dead for lengthy introspection about politics and whatnot. They're made with cutting edge 21st century technology and yet the dreadful acting and dialogue is supposed to mirror the hilariously stilted style that was all the rage about 80 years ago.

That's the sort of stylistic gulf that I hope JJ can overcome by telling stories that have a deeper resonance (across 3 films minimum) without sacrificing the drive and energy and wit that made the OT such a joy to sit through.

Very well put

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

Redemption certainly is, but there's some things I think any rational person would see as anything but beautiful. For example, what beauty is to be found in some lunatic getting away with murder for 50 years, and dying of natural causes?

Err..none. Sorry I don't see ur point.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

The prequel story has a depth and complexity to it that simply wasn't supported by the dialogue, editing and direction in quite a few scenes.

Yeah, in addition to all the stuff I just plain don't like there were some very frustrating missed opportunities.

While it wasn't handled particularly deftly and it didn't go far enough I really liked the whiffs of moral relativism. Anakin's turn absolutely didn't work for me but there were moments where it kind of could have and most of those had to do with his sort of 'peace through strength' flirtations with absolute rule.

I also really like the way they almost sort of bridged the gap between the PT/OT good guys/bad guys role reversal. When Anakin's 'and you're starting to sound like a separatist' conversation with Padme almost kind of worked. That was a rich vein I wish they had mined a little more deeply.

[Optimus]

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit...news/?a=106053

[Darkstream]

I like them!

But are they supposed to be the troopers for the New Republic? The Empire is still no more at this point, right?

[Optimus]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

I like them!

But are they supposed to be the troopers for the New Republic? The Empire is still no more at this point, right?

I'm not sure tbh, in the EU the Imperial Remnant survived on for a while so maybe they'll take it in the similar direction for EP VII.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

Err..none. Sorry I don't see your point.

My point was that while redemption is inherently subjective for us as people, beauty operates under a different standard. There's some things in life which will never be beautiful, period.

[Optimus]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

My point was that while redemption is inherently subjective for us as people, beauty operates under a different standard. There's some things in life which will never be beautiful, period.

Luiz Guzman probably agrees.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by OptimusL

Luiz Guzman probably agrees.

Sorry; not familiar with him.

[Moviefan2k4]

As for the new Stormtrooper designs, I like that they used elements of both the classic versions and the prequels. The upper half seems based on the Clones from Episode II, while the lower half is more traditional.

[Randall Flagg]

Stormtroopers look pretty cool.