Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[Kirk Out]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I likes the sound of that, Ernest. Anakin crashed and burned (literally), so if Plagueis gives it another go and creates the baddest of all the Sith then perhaps Luke's burgeoning abilities ("moving mountains" and so forth) might be all that can stop he/she/it - only Luke's gotta confront his own demons first, not least because Plagueis might technically be his grand-pappy...

exactly this sounds

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Ryan0503

It was in Dark Empire (great comic)... Luke also follows his fathers path down the dark side thinking that he is turning to the dark side for good reason (to defeat the Emperor). However the Clone bodies turn out to be to fragial to contain Palpatines power and he tries to move himself into Leias unborn child. I wont spoil the story but I love that comic!!!!

Even if the writing is not greatly executed, I thought the concepts and the art on Dark Empire were great. One of the few Star Wars comics that actually appeals to me.

A lot of fans don't seem to care for Cam Kennedy's art, but I love it -- It's atmospheric (colors) and realistically detailed (mech), while still being loose and stylized (figures).

[Ernest Rister]

Barf.

Yeah, they gotta fill comic book panels...but they don't understand story structure or weren't allowed to progress the story. Luke turning to the Dark Side after passing that test in Jedi?....Fan fiction. Aint gonna happen.

[stvn1974]

Maybe Luke will turn to the dark side and kill a bunch of kids. Then we will be expected to believe he is redeemed/saved at the end.

[Kirk Out]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

Maybe Luke will turn to the dark side and kill a bunch of kids. Then we will be expected to believe he is redeemed/saved at the end.

trying a lil too hard

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by ernest rister

barf.

Yeah, they gotta fill comic book panels...but they don't understand story structure or weren't allowed to progress the story. Luke turning to the dark side after passing that test in jedi?....fan fiction. Aint gonna happen.

+1,000

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Barf.

Yeah, they gotta fill comic book panels...but they don't understand story structure or weren't allowed to progress the story. Luke turning to the Dark Side after passing that test in Jedi?....Fan fiction. Aint gonna happen.

This is true. All EU is fan-fiction.

[toddly6666]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

Even if the writing is not greatly executed, I thought the concepts and the art on Dark Empire were great. One of the few Star Wars comics that actually appeals to me.

A lot of fans don't seem to care for Cam Kennedy's art, but I love it -- It's atmospheric (colors) and realistically detailed (mech), while still being loose and stylized (figures).

According to the prequel video games, Anakin basically joined the dark side in order to save his wife and because Anakin was a bit racist towards non-humanoid aliens such as the one who killed his mom. Wouldnt someone such as Ben Kenobi ghost give the whole story to Luke?

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by toddly6666

According to the prequel video games, Anakin basically joined the dark side in order to save his wife and because Anakin was a bit racist towards non-humanoid aliens such as the one who killed his mom. Wouldnt someone such as Ben Kenobi ghost give the whole story to Luke?

I think he died before he could. He was trying to be vague with Luke about the connection between his father and Vader. I guess at this point, a ghost can only say so much.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by toddly6666

According to the prequel video games, Anakin basically joined the dark side in order to save his wife and because Anakin was a bit racist towards non-humanoid aliens such as the one who killed his mom. Wouldnt someone such as Ben Kenobi ghost give the whole story to Luke?

Isn't it obvious from the existing movies that Kenobi did nothing but lie to Luke and hide most of the truth?

If Luke does indeed turn to the Dark Side in this new film, I think at least part of the reason should be because he realizes that Obi-Wan and Yoda lied to him either directly or by omission (or by bad writing) about just about everything.

But I think they're going to make it simpler: I think his family is going to be endangered in a way that forces Luke to fight back in a way which leads to the "dark side", which never made sense to me anyway. Anger is supposed to lead to the dark side, but especially in the prequels, Yoda and other Jedi seem pretty damned pissed whenever they're fighting. And what's wrong with being angry when confronting evil anyway? Is one supposed to fight terrorists and Nazis with a smile on their face?

I don't think they'll make Luke as paranoid as Anakin was portrayed, but he'll fight back in anger and turn, at least for a time.

But hopefully whatever they do will make some sense, be not something we've seen before and will be unexpected but still consistent with the characters as they've been established.

IMO, one of the mistakes in the OT is that IMO, Anakin could not be redeemed no matter what Luke did even though there "was some good in him". The guy was largely responsible for killing millions of people. How could he ever be redeemed? Could Hitler or Osama Bin Laden be redeemed? Redemption is nonsense.

Which is one of the reasons I thought that there could have been a plot around the fact that over the years it becomes known that Luke was Vader's son and Luke is accused of being a traitor and spy. Which is why he's in hiding. He then has to prove his innocence as well as fight some new evil.

[Geoff D]

I never saw it as redemption, but atonement. That's what tickles me about the persistent moaning about how Vader's done so much bad stuff it can't possibly be cancelled out; it's not like he saves Luke by pushing him out of the way of an AT-AT and then waltzes off into the sunset, he saves Luke by renouncing his evil ways and killing the only man in the galaxy who's badder than him, and at the expense of the only thing he has left to give: his life. The comparisons to Hitler and OBL are spurious because Vader's merely the muscle, not the leader, i.e. those guys didn't have a satanic overlord staring over their shoulder who made them false promises and lured them into a lifetime of darkness.

[Kirk Out]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I never saw it as redemption, but atonement. That's what tickles me about the persistent moaning about how Vader's done so much bad stuff it can't possibly be cancelled out; it's not like he saves Luke by pushing him out of the way of an AT-AT and then waltzes off into the sunset, he saves Luke by renouncing his evil ways and killing the only man in the galaxy who's badder than him, and at the expense of the only thing he has left to give: his life. The comparisons to Hitler and OBL are spurious because Vader's merely the muscle, not the leader, i.e. those guys didn't have a satanic overlord staring over their shoulder who made them false promises and lured them into a lifetime of darkness.

This.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Barf.

Yeah, they gotta fill comic book panels...but they don't understand story structure or weren't allowed to progress the story. Luke turning to the Dark Side after passing that test in Jedi?....Fan fiction. Aint gonna happen.

Lucas himself pitched an ending like that, and Kasdan wanted to do it.

George Lucas pitched a really dark ending. Like, really dark.

Even though Lucas really wanted a bright, upbeat ending, and he fought against killing off any major characters — even Yoda, for a long time — during one story session, Lucas pitched a really, really dark ending. In a nutshell, the scene with Vader and the Emperor unspools the way it does in the final film. Vader sacrifices himself to take out the Emperor, and then Luke helps Vader to take off his famous helmet. And then — Luke puts on Vader's helmet himself. In the transcript of the story session with Lucas and Kasdan, Lucas says: "Luke takes his mask off. The mask is the very last thing — and then Luke puts it on and says, 'Now I am Vader.' Surprise! The ultimate twist. 'Now I will go and kill the [Rebel] fleet and I will rule the universe.'" Kasdan immediately responded, "That's what I think should happen" — but Lucas didn't actually want to go that dark because "this is for kids."

I think that would have been a horrible way to end ROTJ.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I never saw it as redemption, but atonement. That's what tickles me about the persistent moaning about how Vader's done so much bad stuff it can't possibly be cancelled out; it's not like he saves Luke by pushing him out of the way of an AT-AT and then waltzes off into the sunset, he saves Luke by renouncing his evil ways and killing the only man in the galaxy who's badder than him, and at the expense of the only thing he has left to give: his life. The comparisons to Hitler and OBL are spurious because Vader's merely the muscle, not the leader, i.e. those guys didn't have a satanic overlord staring over their shoulder who made them false promises and lured them into a lifetime of darkness.

One good deed (no matter how grand) is not enough to redeem a man of a lifetime of wickedness.

Besides I dont care what Palpatine promised him or how he lured Anakin. Anakin willingly and selfishly went to the darkside and killed countless Jedi and younglings in the hopes that he could save his wife and children's lives. That's the actions of a sociopath. Then he went on to kill thousands if not millions more and stood by while an entire planet was destroyed. Not to mention in Episode 2 Anakin killed an entire village of Sand People without Palpatines help. Yeah, they had just killed his mother, but only a sociopath would hold the children responsible for that. And as we now know his killing the Emperor didn't rid the galaxy of the Empire or even defeat the Sith. So in the grand scheme about all he did was save his son's life and whack the Emperor, and save the Rebellion's ass so it could fight another day. That isn't to say his actions were small, but they aren't even close to balancing his debt to the galaxy.

Its fine if people want to be more forgiving of Anakin, but the people who don't give him a break have good reasoning not to.

[toddly6666]

Does anyone feel kind of funny listening to analysis of these Star Wars movies? I know that any movie can be broken down and analyzed and have many interpretations but listening to people hypothesize or analyze Star Wars just feels weird - these Star Wars movies seem as two-dimensional as a typical good comic book movie such as The Avengers or Spiderman 2. Does anyone interpret and analyze The Avengers? Not really. It doesnt make it less of a good movie or less epic though.

[Geoff D]

Ah, I knew someone would spin it by saying "but according to the new movies the Sith ain't dead and neither is the Empire so Vader's sacrifice meant diddly", because for the last 30+ years there were no new movies and/or canonical stories so the original point stands. Besides, saying that about Vader means that the Rebels' sacrifices in Jedi were also in vain, effectively rendering the entire movie moot in terms of what it means for the Star Wars saga.

That's something which I hope is addressed in the new films, i.e. it won't be THE Empire striking back but a ragtag collection of old loyalist generals leading a creaky fleet in attacks against the New Republic, who have a whole bunch of shiny new toys (like with the rumours about Han and Chewie being in command of a Republic Star Destroyer).

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not painting Vader as a noble hero for what he did (I don't think anyone has?) but he atones for his sins and those of others by willingly giving up his life to protect someone he loves, only to be resurrected through the Force almost like some sort of mass-murdering anti-Jesus. I'll gladly concede that Lucas got his wires crossed when it came to the symbolic and thematic representations of what Vader did, but such allusions have been made before in the films like with Anakin's immaculate conception and Luke's upside-down 'crucifixion' on the antenna when he's hanging out at Cloud City.

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Cook

Lucas himself pitched an ending like that, and Kasdan wanted to do it.

George Lucas pitched a really dark ending. Like, really dark.


I think that would have been a horrible way to end ROTJ.

Yeah, there's a lot of things that would have had to have played out differently in ROTJ in order for anyone to accept Luke putting on Vader's helmet like that. It just wouldn't have happened so quickly and easily without some sort of build-up that it was possible and believable to happen. And if they did go that route, you better believe that we would have gotten Episode VII a lot sooner, because there's no way they would have just ended it there like that with Luke taking a walk on the Darkside.

If I'm correct, I believe Mark Hamill also wanted Luke to join the Darkside. Although it would have been interesting to see, in the end, I think Lucas made the right call by not going that way. If only he had been so wise with his decisions on using the Ewoks so much.

[Geoff D]

Well, that's why Jedi was wrapped up so neatly with Leia being the other, Han living to fight another day, Anakin turning back to the good side etc. Lucas knew he wouldn't be able to get another Star Wars movie out of Ford and Fisher was coming apart at the seams, so that was that. Until now...

[Elandyll]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I never saw it as redemption, but atonement. That's what tickles me about the persistent moaning about how Vader's done so much bad stuff it can't possibly be cancelled out; it's not like he saves Luke by pushing him out of the way of an AT-AT and then waltzes off into the sunset, he saves Luke by renouncing his evil ways and killing the only man in the galaxy who's badder than him, and at the expense of the only thing he has left to give: his life. The comparisons to Hitler and OBL are spurious because Vader's merely the muscle, not the leader, i.e. those guys didn't have a satanic overlord staring over their shoulder who made them false promises and lured them into a lifetime of darkness.

If it was about atonement then Lucas failed spectacularly at it in ROTJ.

Saving your own son when he is about to be killed in front of you has never, and will never, exonerate a psychopath mass murderer, even if his last words to his son are that he was right, that all along, deep down, a small part of him was still good and he had the potential to return to being "good".

If anything, I hope that the new trilogy deals with the repercussions of people finding out that Vader was Luke and Leia's father (if people indeed find out, and I imagine that this kind of info could not stay hidden for long with the Emperor and Vader not around anymore). What does it mean for them and how people relate to them knowing this?

And if it has remained a secret all this time, I hope we still get to see how it affected them to deal with the aftermath of everything their father had been doing for 20 years prior to his demise. Including and not limited to torturing his own daughter (unknowingly at the time) in A New Hope.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

If it was about atonement then Lucas failed spectacularly at it in ROTJ.

Saving your own son when he is about to be killed in front of you has never, and will never, exonerate a psychopath mass murderer, even if his last words to his son are that he was right, that all along, deep down, a small part of him was still good and he had the potential to return to being "good".

If anything, I hope that the new trilogy deals with the repercussions of people finding out that Vader was Luke and Leia's father (if people indeed find out, and I imagine that this kind of info could not stay hidden for long with the Emperor and Vader not around anymore). What does it mean for them and how people relate to them knowing this?

And if it has remained a secret all this time, I hope we still get to see how it affected them to deal with the aftermath of everything their father had been doing for 20 years prior to his demise. Including and not limited to torturing his own daughter (unknowingly at the time) in A New Hope.

I'll never get why people think Vader was "exonerated" or "redeemed" in Return of the Jedi. We see a Sith Lord turn back from the Dark Side and give up his life in the process. Return of the Jedi reminds me -- of all things -- The Black Hole. The evil in Reinhardt's soul is sent to Hell, the good is passed on to heaven. The good in Anakin returns and becomes a part of the Force, the evil dies with his body. Nothing about exoneration, redemption, etc., though the theme of forgiveness is there in Luke's faith that Anakin still has goodness in his soul.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

I'll never get why people think Vader was "exonerated" or "redeemed" in Return of the Jedi. We see a Sith Lord turn back from the Dark Side and give up his life in the process. Return of the Jedi reminds me -- of all things -- The Black Hole. The evil in Reinhardt's soul is sent to Hell, the good is passed on to heaven. The good in Anakin returns and becomes a part of the Force, the evil dies with his body. Nothing about exoneration, redemption, etc., though the theme of forgiveness is there in Luke's faith that Anakin still has goodness in his soul.

You're confusing redemption with atonement. The first is born from personal forgiveness in the eyes of the wrong, while the latter is the attempt for reconciliation by the evildoer. Anakin did what he could do save his son, and while Luke presumably chose to forgive him, we don't know what Leia or anyone else did in that regard. Both siblings suffered greatly, and it would be easy for them to hate Anakin...but the real devil in the story was Palpatine, and he's dead.