4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

I'm going to have to say that having something in 4K on a 32" sized screen, unzoomed, isn't going to look overly impressive over 2K. Not if you are sitting back 6-10' watching a TV. On my work 27" monitor I look at images of all sorts of resolutions up close and zoomed in all the time. There's obviously a difference to be seen when doing this but if I have a 4K and a 2K image both unzoomed I find it difficult to pick up what's better in the 4K.

Now saying that I don't mean that 4K is irrelevant and should not be coming out. Just that it's the law of diminishing returns and yes 4K on a smaller screen at distance won't be as discernible from 2K as BD was from DVD and previous.

Aside from higher pixels though, 4K has other benefits over 1080p. It's also the natural progression of technology. I believe once 4K becomes the main standard and almost fully replaces 1080p (likely within 10 years but no less then 7) that the next big thing will be 16K or beyond. There's little point in making the incremental steps the same as before. There won't be enough benefit to incur all the costs involved.

I wa speaking in relative terms. For 4k replace my example with a 42 inch tv (pretty much the new standard for regular sized tv, at least that is what I am seeing more and more)

[Lentulus Batiatus]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I wa speaking in relative terms. For 4k replace my example with a 42 inch tv (pretty much the new standard for regular sized tv, at least that is what I am seeing more and more)

I didn't disagree with your statement that we wiil have to wait and see and judge with our own eyes. I simply noted that we are now dealing with resolutions and detail that's so minute it's more difficult to pick out the difference. Again, diminishing returns. your examples of past "we were tolds" isn't going to be the same apples-to-apples since none of those were apples-to-apples anyways. Blu-ray is 4 times the resolution of DVD. 4K is 4 times the resolution of BD however it's at a point where the difference between those resolutions, on proper displays, becomes less apparent. 8K goes beyond 4K but again the noticeable difference will be less dramatic.

BD also brought with it new standards for video presentation and moved everything to that standard where DVD had many options of how the video was stored for playback. Anamorphic, enhanced for 16:9 TVs, letterbox, pan & scan, etc are all gone now. BD to 4K doesn't have this sort of change as it's more or less just increasing the BD resolution to a higher capacity. The rest stays the same. We aren't getting 4K discs of Ben Hur where all the stored information is purely in the actual picture and the black bars just show up by default. It will still be a 1.78:1 image with the bars included as a part of the actual frame.

Moving to 4K goes beyond just the movies we love and collect. It is going to affect all of the broadcast industry and there are many parts of that industry which aren't even up to 1080p yet. The fact that my cable subscription gives me about 40 HD channels but almost 200 SD channels that I NEVER watch yet am forced to both have and pay for shows this. 4K as a standard is getting it's start with streaming and soon BD but hasn't even begun to show up in broadcast. Now if we jump ahead 6 years and it's cheaper to produce only 4K TV's or various qualities than continuing to produce 1080P and most people have hd to replace their throw-away "new" HD sets with a 4K TV still having the local news broadcast in 1080p isn't going to hurt it any. But sure as heck Monday Night Football will be presented in 4K. And at that point people will notice just as they did with HD.

4K BD, streaming and even the TV's are likely 5 years early. And the studios insistance on continued support of DVD isn't going to help move to the next gen HD much either. It's a cool world we live in but at the same time there's something to be said for having too much, too fast and too soon.

I can't wait for the first 8K passive 3D laser projector's to show up though!

[vargo]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Wrong. Just as it was shown that upconverted DVD looked pretty darn good in the past generation. I'm guessing you've never owned an OPPO player.

I utilise upscalers on a daily basis far in advance of anything an Oppo can do. The fact remains that the objective of good upscaling is to resize the image in as neutral a way as possible with minimal negative artifacts.

If your upscaling set or player is altering the image to the extent that you think it is improving it, then most likely you are looking at bad upscaling with untrained eyes. That is, upscaling with heavy processing... dnr, edge enhancement, etc.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

I didn't disagree with your statement that we wiil have to wait and see and judge with our own eyes. I simply noted that we are now dealing with resolutions and detail that's so minute it's more difficult to pick out the difference. Again, diminishing returns. your examples of past "we were tolds" isn't going to be the same apples-to-apples since none of those were apples-to-apples anyways. Blu-ray is 4 times the resolution of DVD. 4K is 4 times the resolution of BD however it's at a point where the difference between those resolutions, on proper displays, becomes less apparent. 8K goes beyond 4K but again the noticeable difference will be less dramatic.

BD also brought with it new standards for video presentation and moved everything to that standard where DVD had many options of how the video was stored for playback. Anamorphic, enhanced for 16:9 TVs, letterbox, pan & scan, etc are all gone now. BD to 4K doesn't have this sort of change as it's more or less just increasing the BD resolution to a higher capacity. The rest stays the same. We aren't getting 4K discs of Ben Hur where all the stored information is purely in the actual picture and the black bars just show up by default. It will still be a 1.78:1 image with the bars included as a part of the actual frame.

Moving to 4K goes beyond just the movies we love and collect. It is going to affect all of the broadcast industry and there are many parts of that industry which aren't even up to 1080p yet. The fact that my cable subscription gives me about 40 HD channels but almost 200 SD channels that I NEVER watch yet am forced to both have and pay for shows this. 4K as a standard is getting it's start with streaming and soon BD but hasn't even begun to show up in broadcast. Now if we jump ahead 6 years and it's cheaper to produce only 4K TV's or various qualities than continuing to produce 1080P and most people have hd to replace their throw-away "new" HD sets with a 4K TV still having the local news broadcast in 1080p isn't going to hurt it any. But sure as heck Monday Night Football will be presented in 4K. And at that point people will notice just as they did with HD.

4K BD, streaming and even the TV's are likely 5 years early. And the studios insistance on continued support of DVD isn't going to help move to the next gen HD much either. It's a cool world we live in but at the same time there's something to be said for having too much, too fast and too soon.

I can't wait for the first 8K passive 3D laser projector's to show up though!

Fair enough, I'm sure we will have fun finding out. Laser projectors? Yes please!

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

I didn't disagree with your statement that we wiil have to wait and see and judge with our own eyes. I simply noted that we are now dealing with resolutions and detail that's so minute it's more difficult to pick out the difference. Again, diminishing returns. your examples of past "we were tolds" isn't going to be the same apples-to-apples since none of those were apples-to-apples anyways. Blu-ray is 4 times the resolution of DVD. 4K is 4 times the resolution of BD however it's at a point where the difference between those resolutions, on proper displays, becomes less apparent. 8K goes beyond 4K but again the noticeable difference will be less dramatic.

BD also brought with it new standards for video presentation and moved everything to that standard where DVD had many options of how the video was stored for playback. Anamorphic, enhanced for 16:9 TVs, letterbox, pan & scan, etc are all gone now. BD to 4K doesn't have this sort of change as it's more or less just increasing the BD resolution to a higher capacity. The rest stays the same. We aren't getting 4K discs of Ben Hur where all the stored information is purely in the actual picture and the black bars just show up by default. It will still be a 1.78:1 image with the bars included as a part of the actual frame.

Moving to 4K goes beyond just the movies we love and collect. It is going to affect all of the broadcast industry and there are many parts of that industry which aren't even up to 1080p yet. The fact that my cable subscription gives me about 40 HD channels but almost 200 SD channels that I NEVER watch yet am forced to both have and pay for shows this. 4K as a standard is getting it's start with streaming and soon BD but hasn't even begun to show up in broadcast. Now if we jump ahead 6 years and it's cheaper to produce only 4K TV's or various qualities than continuing to produce 1080P and most people have hd to replace their throw-away "new" HD sets with a 4K TV still having the local news broadcast in 1080p isn't going to hurt it any. But sure as heck Monday Night Football will be presented in 4K. And at that point people will notice just as they did with HD.

4K BD, streaming and even the TV's are likely 5 years early. And the studios insistance on continued support of DVD isn't going to help move to the next gen HD much either. It's a cool world we live in but at the same time there's something to be said for having too much, too fast and too soon.

I can't wait for the first 8K passive 3D laser projector's to show up though!

4K BD will offer more than just an increase in resolution. If the standards are followed, rather than 8-bit colour, 10-bit colour will be used, this increases the colour precision. We may also see an increase in colour gamut. Although there hasn't been any mention, but we could also see an increase in Chroma subsampling, currently Blu-ray utilises 4:2:0, 4K BD may utilise 4:2:2.

To put these changes in to perspective, DVD utilises 8-bit colour and 4:2:0 subsampling.

[kristoffer]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

4K BD will offer more than just an increase in resolution. If the standards are followed, rather than 8-bit colour, 10-bit colour will be used, this increases the colour precision. We may also see an increase in colour gamut. Although there hasn't been any mention, but we could also see an increase in Chroma subsampling, currently Blu-ray utilises 4:2:0, 4K BD may utilise 4:2:2.

To put these changes in to perspective, DVD utilises 8-bit colour and 4:2:0 subsampling.

4:4:4 would be the best but probably takes up too much space.

[Dylan34]

What else will 4k utilize? Is it going to be like blu-ray where the resolution is 2160p and the black bars are a part of that resolution or, will the player make the bars when needed so we get full resolution. I'm asking because I don't know much about that or of its even possible because of the displays being a fixed resolution.

[Suntory_Times]

Originally Posted by Dylan34

What else will 4k utilize? Is it going to be like blu-ray where the resolution is 2160p and the black bars are a part of that resolution or, will the player make the bars when needed so we get full resolution. I'm asking because I don't know much about that or of its even possible because of the displays being a fixed resolution.

The pnly thing confirmed is resolution. It is a possibility but I wouldn't hold my breathe.

[Dylan34]

Originally Posted by Suntory_Times

The pnly thing confirmed is resolution. It is a possibility but I wouldn't hold my breathe.

Of course not. That would be too good to be true. Maybe by February or March we'll hear a little more info.

[Lentulus Batiatus]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

4K BD will offer more than just an increase in resolution. If the standards are followed, rather than 8-bit colour, 10-bit colour will be used, this increases the colour precision. We may also see an increase in colour gamut. Although there hasn't been any mention, but we could also see an increase in Chroma subsampling, currently Blu-ray utilises 4:2:0, 4K BD may utilise 4:2:2.

To put these changes in to perspective, DVD utilises 8-bit colour and 4:2:0 subsampling.

Upping the resolution, colours etc. 4K up's what 1080p can do. But that doesn't change the fact that as an increase it's a smaller increment than BD is from DVD which is smaller than what DVD was from VHS. To actually see these benefits is much more difficult to the general viewer under normal conditions. Going beyond 4K means even less ability to discern the difference. Again having better quality is great and I'm happy it's coming but as of today DVD is far more alive and purchased even by people who own full 1080p HD TVS and even new 4K TVs than 1080p Blu-ray is. There needs to be a complete cultural shift that abolishes SD pretty much completely and moves people to the new standard 1080p before an even newer format can ever gain an true traction.

You could roll out 8K or 16K today and you still face the same issues. DVD is good enough for far to many people and movie studios seem to be perfectly ok with that. The power is in their hands, not the consumer. They are just to chicken-shit afraid of some short term bumps in the road as people get over the shock of no more DVD, at least as a stand alone for new releases. The more I think about it the more releasing 4K now just becomes a dumb move by any studio still fully supporting DVD. They are setting the format up to fail before it even hits shelves. If Disney is dumb enough to not release 3D films domestically (yet still trot out the Marvel movies in 3D) yet people want them and are buying them from over seas I can't understand why there's any interest from studios in 4K. Well other than hiking up the prices of 4K discs to pull more cash from the wallets of the few who will buy into it.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by vargo

The goal of 'good' upconverting is to resize the image with the minimum negative artifacts possible. There's no improvement or benefit when watching 1080p content upconverted on a 4K display.

I would go one further and say that since the most common 4K displays are LCD (due to affordability), you're getting a significantly worse PQ than native 1080p on a same-size, same-price Plasma.

I agree with the first part but vehemently disagree with the second.

[Canada]

Originally Posted by kristoffer

4:4:4 would be the best but probably takes up too much space.

It would take up to much space. I would like to see 4:4:4 colour colour space, and Display port 1.3 to have HDCP some how implemented so studios would feel safe with the next step in Blu ray using it.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

There needs to be a complete cultural shift that abolishes SD pretty much completely and moves people to the new standard 1080p before an even newer format can ever gain an true traction.

I see no reason why 4K can't replace regular Blu-ray with leaving DVD relatively unaffected. Both 4K and regular Blu-ray are competing for the same market (people who care about video and/or audio quality).

Obviously anyone who hasn't upgraded to Blu-ray by now will never care about 4K, but no one knows at this point how many current Blu-ray users will be interested in 4K. While I don't expect many people who are currently buying Blu-ray to upgrade the movies they already have, it's certainly possible that a moderate percentage of them will switch to buying new releases in 4K.

[Canada]

Hopefully we get 24/96 DTS MA audio tracks, that is if there is enough room for them.

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by Canada

Hopefully we get 24/96 DTS MA audio tracks, that is if there is enough room for them.

Why 24/96, when we could have 24/192, or for that matter a higher number altogether?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Canada

Hopefully we get 24/96 Dolby Atmos audio tracks standard

Adjusted

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

Upping the resolution, colours etc. 4K up's what 1080p can do. But that doesn't change the fact that as an increase it's a smaller increment than BD is from DVD which is smaller than what DVD was from VHS. To actually see these benefits is much more difficult to the general viewer under normal conditions. Going beyond 4K means even less ability to discern the difference. Again having better quality is great and I'm happy it's coming but as of today DVD is far more alive and purchased even by people who own full 1080p HD TVS and even new 4K TVs than 1080p Blu-ray is. There needs to be a complete cultural shift that abolishes SD pretty much completely and moves people to the new standard 1080p before an even newer format can ever gain an true traction.

You could roll out 8K or 16K today and you still face the same issues. DVD is good enough for far to many people and movie studios seem to be perfectly ok with that. The power is in their hands, not the consumer. They are just to chicken-shit afraid of some short term bumps in the road as people get over the shock of no more DVD, at least as a stand alone for new releases. The more I think about it the more releasing 4K now just becomes a dumb move by any studio still fully supporting DVD. They are setting the format up to fail before it even hits shelves. If Disney is dumb enough to not release 3D films domestically (yet still trot out the Marvel movies in 3D) yet people want them and are buying them from over seas I can't understand why there's any interest from studios in 4K. Well other than hiking up the prices of 4K discs to pull more cash from the wallets of the few who will buy into it.

This isn't going to happen. Its down to the people to move with the times. If people want to still purchase DVD's then that's their problem. As long as better technology becomes available, people will buy it, whether it be a small minority, technology is still moving forward. Which I believe is a good thing.

I am not going to jump on to the 4K bandwagon straight away, I am going to wait until it has become established, one thing I have learnt when it comes to new technology is never get the first bite. I am not going to lie, but I am excited about 4K Blu-ray, its something to look forward to and dream about owning.

Bring it on!

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by kristoffer

4:4:4 would be the best but probably takes up too much space.

Of course. May as well encode RGB at 10 or 12-bit, but you're talking a large amount of space required.

4:2:2 10-bit using HEVC, seems to be the most logical step up. But I would be happy to see 4:2:0 10-bit, as long as something has been improved upon over the current consumer video standard.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Dylan34

Is it going to be like blu-ray where the resolution is 2160p and the black bars are a part of that resolution or, will the player make the bars when needed so we get full resolution.

For 16 x 9 projectors that would require a anamorphic transfer for 2.40 content and a anamorphic lens. The player would have to add black bars for fixed 16 x 9 displays.

The anamorphic lens providers have tried to get anamorphic transfers done for Blu-ray but AFAIK no titles have made it to market. A very small niche market.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

Why 24/96, when we could have 24/192, or for that matter a higher number altogether?

Are you suggesting that you can hear to 96 KHz?