SPECTRE Review Thread

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Fair enough. I definitely grimace a bit during "man talk" and some other scenes, but I don't think it's outright misogyny. Slasher films are arguably more misogynistic, reveling in the violent punishment of women who don't fit society's ideal female behavior model.

Well, we could say there's no misogyny in cinematic Bond and instead say there's some really bad sexism but I didn't even want to have that conversation. All I wanted to do was point out that it's been there all along, from the beginning. The 60s films had a lot of sexism because as all Bond films do, it reflected the popular culture.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Infernal King

Well, we could say there's no misogyny in cinematic Bond and instead say there's some really bad sexism but I didn't even want to have that conversation. All I wanted to do was point out that it's been there all along, from the beginning. The 60s films had a lot of sexism because as all Bond films do, it reflected the popular culture.

Fair enough, man. I was just clarifying what I see as the difference.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Fair enough, man. I was just clarifying what I see as the difference.

I might be inclined to agree with you on the sexism vs. misogyny issue if it weren't late and I wasn't in the mood for an academic debate.

[NARMAK]

Please do not turn this into a feminist debate thread. I swear if men argued like women, we'd all be talking about Rom-Coms and their gender tropes against males as well as females yet how they're celebrated instead of denigrated.

Why the heck can't we just accept adult males and females consent to the stuff they do.

There's a reason movies hold specific target audiences. Expendables is male mostly, whilst something like 50 Shades of Grey will be women. Bond is maybe more aligned to males, but women also enjoy it.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

Please do not turn this into a feminist debate thread. I swear if men argued like women, we'd all be talking about Rom-Coms and their gender tropes against males as well as females yet how they're celebrated instead of denigrated.

Why the heck can't we just accept adult males and females consent to the stuff they do.

There's a reason movies hold specific target audiences. Expendables is male mostly, whilst something like 50 Shades of Grey will be women. Bond is maybe more aligned to males, but women also enjoy it.

Ironically, you're moving the thread more into a "feminist debate" with this post instead of just letting things be. We were focusing on a very specific point of contention as to whether misogyny and sexism appeared in both the 60s and 70s Bond movies (they did) or only starting appearing in the 70s films (they didn't). I don't think anybody here wants to argue about anything further than that on the subject. You can't come into a thread with a bone to pick and then say "but don't talk about this thing, guys!"

[SymbioticFunction]

I wouldn't go as far to actually describe it as 'misogyny', but I thought Daniel Craig Bond's seemingly rather indifferent reaction to the death of Séverine in Skyfall was a bit odd.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by SymbioticFunction

I wouldn't go as far to actually describe it as 'misogyny', but I thought Daniel Craig Bond's seemingly rather indifferent reaction to the death of Séverine in Skyfall was a bit odd.

He didn't seem to care that Solange or Strawberry Fields had died either so it's not like this is the first time Craig's Bond was all, "eh, sucks to be her but I have to save the world so whatever".

I'd say as a general rule the Bond series is rife with sexism, not misogyny, although there are probably exceptions to this. It's not a discussion I want to have though because I'm a huge fan and can recognize the franchise's problematic shortcomings when it comes to women and still be very entertained by my favorite movie series.

[SymbioticFunction]

Craig's Bond gave the desert stranded Dominic Greene oil to drink, I thought that kinda showed his thoughts on the matter of Strawberry Fields' death.

[Xenia]

Originally Posted by SymbioticFunction

I wouldn't go as far to actually describe it as 'misogyny', but I thought Daniel Craig Bond's seemingly rather indifferent reaction to the death of Séverine in Skyfall was a bit odd.

I've always seen that as a pure Bond reaction - masking his emotions and deflecting them with his quip about the Scotch. Similar to his deflection of Silva's interrogation with the "what makes you think this is my first time" line. Unlike some people, who take the line literally, I don't think this was a PC attempt at making Bond gay - rather a deflection of Silva's unsettling persona and interrogation.

I think, based purely on his shaky hand when it was "his turn" to knock the glass off her head and his body language that her death definitely affected him - he just didn't have time to let it effect him outwardly.

There's no right or wrong answer in this situation but there's my two cents on it.

[SymbioticFunction]

btw My wife also enjoys watching my Bond films so she obviously doesn't see them as misogynistic. Her favourite film is From Russia With Love.

[Xenia]

If we're going on about favorites most days mine is THUNDERBALL. The ultimate mix of epic cinematic Bond with a lethal Fleming edge and palpable exoticism. Connery brings the perfect mix of his charisma and magnetism from GOLDFINGER and the Fleming danger and lethality from the first two films.

Honestly though I love most Bond films and my favorite changes depending on what I watched most recently. Those first four Connery films are all stone cold classics in my opinion.

[Falaskan]

I wish M could be in the future sequels.

[AKORIS]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Fair enough. I definitely grimace a bit during "man talk" and some other scenes, but I don't think it's outright misogyny. Slasher films are arguably more misogynistic, reveling in the violent punishment of women who don't fit society's ideal female behavior model.

I die laughing every time I see scenes like that....it's so delightful to not see any type of PC crap with the old Bonds....(and most all older films....)

[AKORIS]

Originally Posted by SymbioticFunction

btw My wife also enjoys watching my Bond films so she obviously doesn't see them as misogynistic. Her favourite film is From Russia With Love.

I think most people "get" that these films are from a different era and that the character of Bond is a male fantasy to begin with. Really, a cool British secret agent that travels the world, escapes every impossible situation, and has every single woman he sees melt into his arms (even when Bond is in his late 50's!!) Come on people! enjoy the humor....

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by Xenia

If we're going on about favorites most days mine is THUNDERBALL. The ultimate mix of epic cinematic Bond with a lethal Fleming edge and palpable exoticism. Connery brings the perfect mix of his charisma and magnetism from GOLDFINGER and the Fleming danger and lethality from the first two films.

Honestly though I love most Bond films and my favorite changes depending on what I watched most recently. Those first four Connery films are all stone cold classics in my opinion.

My opinion of the Connery films (except Goldfinger, that one's always been at or near the top of my favorites list) has actually declined as time has gone on. Or at least, I'm not as enamored of them as I used to be and apparently a lot of Bond fans still are. He's not my preferred Bond and there are several other Bond films I find more entertaining and rewatchable than his (again, outside of Goldfinger) but the majority of Connery's entries are still a lot of fun.

I don't subscribe to the meme that Bond peaked in the 60s and with Connery, but I might be in the minority there (it's hard to tell, with so many different opinions of each and every Bond film).

Originally Posted by AKORIS

I die laughing every time I see scenes like that....it's so delightful to not see any type of PC crap with the old Bonds....(and most all older films....)

I laugh at that moment too because it's hilariously outdated. I'm not delighted at seeing women treated like shit in older films, though.

[AKORIS]

Originally Posted by Infernal King

I laugh at that moment too because it's hilariously outdated. I'm not delighted at seeing women treated like shit in older films, though.

that's a fair enough statement.

[spiderfan1985]

Originally Posted by SymbioticFunction

Craig's Bond gave the desert stranded Dominic Greene oil to drink, I thought that kinda showed his thoughts on the matter of Strawberry Fields' death.

Not only that, he made it a point to tell M about her bravery even though she was not a field agent. It really comes down to him consciously choosing to subdue his emotions in Skyfall. There was, unfortunately, nothing he could do at the time to save Severine. Look at Bond's line of work, he really feels that he can't afford to get emotionally involved. He did that in Casino and look how that turned out.

[SymbioticFunction]

Originally Posted by Falaskan

I wish M could be in the future sequels.

But M will be in future sequels. It just won't be Judi Dench.

[AKORIS]

Originally Posted by SymbioticFunction

But M will be in future sequels. It just won't be Judi Dench.

one thing I loved about SKYFALL is how it basically set up the timeline of the series starting characterwise. Basically DR. NO could start next in a current setting....

[Xenia]

Originally Posted by Infernal King

My opinion of the Connery films (except Goldfinger, that one's always been at or near the top of my favorites list) has actually declined as time has gone on. Or at least, I'm not as enamored of them as I used to be and apparently a lot of Bond fans still are. He's not my preferred Bond and there are several other Bond films I find more entertaining and rewatchable than his (again, outside of Goldfinger) but the majority of Connery's entries are still a lot of fun.

I don't subscribe to the meme that Bond peaked in the 60s and with Connery, but I might be in the minority there (it's hard to tell, with so many different opinions of each and every Bond film).

I personally see Connery as being the best Bond and the 60s were the "Golden Age" but there have been a ton of other Bond films I love as well - not just Dr. No - Thunderball.

There are so many varying opinions that I don't think there really is a majority/minority about the films anymore, especially with so many younger audience members subscribing to Craig's 3 pictures and Craig's 3 alone.

It's a great fanbase to be a part of. Most of the time, even when people strongly disagree, everyone is accepting of differing opinions because there is such a variety in the series. A variety I embrace, I should add. I'd get bored if they were all one way or another.

Here's to hoping Bond 24 is the best of them all. I think the only way that will be possible is if this time.... it's NOT personal and Craig ends up with a lady at the end of the film.

Solange - Killed.
Vesper - Killed.
Fields - Killed
Camille - Pissed off / walks away
Severine - Killed.
Judi Dench - Killed.

C'mon EON. Christ.

And for God's sakes can we stop with the "Big Fun James Bond Family" stuff where all of the Mi6 regulars have nearly as much screen time as Bond himself. For Bond 24 the last thing I want to see is Fiennes and Harris running around everywhere with Bond saving the world as a trio. Hope not.

M got an excuse in Skyfall because she basically was the Bond girl of that. Even then, it's a pretty lame excuse.