Star Trek: The Original Motion Picture Collection (1979-1991)

[Geoff D]

Thirded. And we don't know that he didn't try to get any info on the probe, he may well have aksed them but if they didn't know anything then what use was him even mentioning that he aksed them?

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Martoto

In The Voyage Home, which I adore, when Spock mind melds with Gracie and/or George, why do you think he doesn't he get, or try to get, any information regarding the probe? (other than it potentially spoiling the movie)

You do realize they're whales, right? What would they know about probes that are from a completely different time period?

[Martoto]

So the probe in the 23rd century seeking out then being listened to and understood by mammals that live in our seas (up until the 21st century) is complete happenstance then?

It is heavily implied that the probe had contact with the whales prior to their extinction. As intelligent animals, it would follow that knowledge this contact (what it is for, and where it came from, if not the precise nature of the probe itself) has been passed down through the generations, otherwise how would the whales be so quickly and easily responsive to the visitor when they are taken to the 23rd Century.

Cosmic coincidence that a probe would travel the length of the galaxy on a direct course to earth and direct its signals at the oceans on the off chance that its own language was the same as or understood by creatures that dwelled there and would be agreeable with and know how to successfully conversing with them?

The two species clearly have a history.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Martoto

So the probe in the 23rd century seeking out then being listened to and understood by mammals that live in our seas (up until the 21st century) is complete happenstance then?

Yes, but who cares about the whales? I enjoy this film because of the interaction between Kirk, Spock, and Bones.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Yes, but who cares about the whales? I enjoy this film because of the interaction between Kirk, Spock, and Bones.

Apologies for underestimating your lack of regard for the whales. I'm glad to hear how secure you are in your priorities.

My question was why Spock didn't appear to get , or ask, for any information regarding the cosmic whale song they picked up in the 23rd century.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Martoto

Apologies for underestimating your lack of regard for the whales. I'm glad you're secure in your priorities.

My question was why Spock didn't appear to get , or ask, for any information regarding the cosmic whale song they picked up in the 23rd century.

Who knows? Chalk it up to a plot hole.

[Martoto]

It could have been fun if the whales had told Spock it's none of his business.

[bigrob]

Pretty sure the studio wanted some kind of on screen subtitles which revealed what the probe was communicating about but Nimoy fought against it.

*edit*

When the alien probe is approaching Earth at the beginning to look for the humpback whales, there were originally subtitles saying things like "Where are you? Can you hear us?" The studio wanted to keep them despite Leonard Nimoy's objections. However, in the first test screening, test audiences indicated the subtitles were unnecessary, so they were cut.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Martoto

So the probe in the 23rd century seeking out then being listened to and understood by mammals that live in our seas (up until the 21st century) is complete happenstance then?

It is heavily implied that the probe had contact with the whales prior to their extinction. As intelligent animals, it would follow that knowledge this contact (what it is for, and where it came from, if not the precise nature of the probe itself) has been passed down through the generations, otherwise how would the whales be so quickly and easily responsive to the visitor when they are taken to the 23rd Century.

I've always assumed the movie was saying humpback whales were aliens that came here millennia ago and the probe was checking on them. OR the probe came here millennia ago and humpback whales were the only species it could make contact with. Either way none of that implies a whale in the 1980s would have any idea about the origins or motivations of the probe, until the probe tells them.

[tilallr1]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I've always assumed the movie was saying humpback whales were aliens that came here millennia ago and the probe was checking on them. OR the probe came here millennia ago and humpback whales were the only species it could make contact with. Either way none of that implies a whale in the 1980s would have any idea about the origins or motivations of the probe, until the probe tells them.

The probe was capable of terraforming planets into waterworlds better suited for whale-like species; the atmospheric disturbances created on Earth were the early stages of an attempt to flood the planet because no whales existed. Think of it like the Genesis device but for Whale creatures.

The probe's creators were whale-like aliens with great technical skill. These aliens were engaged in battle with "mites in metal cubes" - THE BORG, who destroyed the creators' system star after failing to defeat them in battle.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by tilallr1

The probe was capable of terraforming planets into waterworlds better suited for whale-like species; the atmospheric disturbances created on Earth were the early stages of an attempt to flood the planet because no whales existed. Think of it like the Genesis device but for Whale creatures.

Yes, that's part of my first theory above. I don't think the movie says it outright though.

The probe's creators were whale-like aliens with great technical skill. These aliens were engaged in battle with "mites in metal cubes" - THE BORG, who destroyed the creators' system star after failing to defeat them in battle.

Where did you get that from? Star Trek novels are non-canon btw.

[RCRochester]

I always just assumed that the probe and its connection to the whales originated from the planet MacGuffin.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by tilallr1

The probe's creators were whale-like aliens with great technical skill. These aliens were engaged in battle with "mites in metal cubes" - THE BORG, who destroyed the creators' system star after failing to defeat them in battle.

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Where did you get that from? Star Trek novels are non-canon btw.

Yeah, it's from the novel Probe. Which is non-canon.

Also according to scuttlebutt the novel was a cluster**** with much of it being rewritten by the editors and disowned by the credited author.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Yeah, it's from the novel Probe. Which is non-canon.

Also according to scuttlebutt the novel was a cluster**** with much of it being rewritten by the editors and disowned by the credited author.

Trek novels always seem to want to shove the Borg in wherever they can. First V-Ger was from the Borg planet, now the probe from ST4 was impacted by the Borg too. Next thing you know Khan will have been a secret Borg agent.

[SuperFlyHighGuy]

I just finished going through all the original-crew films last week, and in the extras both Leonard Nimoy and Nicholas Meyer said that they didn't want the communication between the whales and the probe to be exposed. A decision I completely agree with and appreciate, it lends much to the viewers imagination...something not done nearly often enough.

And I gotta say, I saw all the films at release, and even though I was young, I thought I "got" everything out of those films. But I was so wrong - they play much better now that I'm older, closer to the ages of the characters. The interplay between the crew is so well written and performed, it really makes these films (and the series) timeless, like a sweet fruit that never rots but instead only ripens closer to its peak with age.

And I thought that The Voyage Home would fare the worst over time because of its foray into the 80s, and to younger viewers only approaching it now, it might. But it hasn't done that for me, thankfully, I still laugh at the "double-dumbass on you!" and Scotty's spat with the computer. I also appreciate the 'save the whales' message more; I see it less as an eye-roller and more as an entertaining socially-conscious message.

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by Martoto

My question was why Spock didn't appear to get , or ask, for any information regarding the cosmic whale song they picked up in the 23rd century.

Spock is still in Vulcan logic mode; he needs to solve the problem of getting the whales back to the 23rd Century (which he believes includes getting their permission). The mystery of the probe is not relevant. And it seems as if mind-melding is usually not that easy, it's often very draining, and the less humanoid the mind, the harder it seems to be (think of the Horta, although that might've been because she was dying).

From the other direction, since George and Gracie were raised in captivity, they would not necessarily be aware of any historical knowledge about the probe, even assuming it was passed down generationally amongst the whale intelligentsia.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by thatguamguy

Spock is still in Vulcan logic mode; he needs to solve the problem of getting the whales back to the 23rd Century (which he believes includes getting their permission). The mystery of the probe is not relevant. And it seems as if mind-melding is usually not that easy, it's often very draining, and the less humanoid the mind, the harder it seems to be (think of the Horta, although that might've been because she was dying).

From the other direction, since George and Gracie were raised in captivity, they would not necessarily be aware of any historical knowledge about the probe, even assuming it was passed down generationally amongst the whale intelligentsia.

It would be logical for Spock to determine the probability of their plan succeeding or any other factors which could potentially work for them or against them.

Since Spock is being diligent enough to get the whale's permission from them, the reasons why would surely have been discussed. Unless Spock told them they were going to take them to the 23rd century where they'll be the only whales in existence, and the whales just said "Century, schmentury! Whatever."

It would not be logical for Spock to assume that there is no pertinent information that could possibly be gained from the whales before putting his plan into action, and therefore didn't bother enquiring. For the sake of the movie though, I'm happy it's not made into a big thing.

And if the factor of George and Gracie being raised in captivity precludes them having knowledge of the probe handed down to them, then that would also have precluded them from having learned the behaviour of whale song, which is the crucial aspect of their inclusion in the story.

The mystery of the probe is very relevant to the people and the whales involved. It's just not relevant to the story and it is, in fact, desirable to leave it a mystery. (Might have been cool for Spock to tell Kirk that they discussed the subject of the probe and he asked what it meant etc , to which the whales replied, enigmatically "We shall see." Or some kind of humpback humour.)

[Geoff D]

Spock asks them for their help in saving the world and they selflessly give it, despite there being no more humpbacked (people?) whales in the future. Their decision is basically mirrored by Gillian deciding to tag along which I thought was a nice touch. They wouldn't have first-hand knowledge of the probe and even if there was some sort of whale legend passed down through the generations what possible harm does it do to the story by omitting it? They can't do anything about it until they get back to the future anyway and that helps to keep the suspense factor up, if Spock says "it visited Earth thousands of millennia ago and they told it to jog on, problem solved" then the outcome is never in doubt.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

....what possible harm does it do to the story by omitting it? They can't do anything about it until they get back to the future anyway.....

I said right at the top that I don't have a problem with it. I know the actual reasons for them not going into it. I was just soliciting for theories and opinions of what Spock may or may not have discussed with the whales. Not why the film omitted to cover it.

The story works perfectly as it is because it's already set up as do or die. There appear to be no other options. I'm not necessarily curious about what the meaning of the probe is. Just curious about whether or not Spock would have been curious to know before putting their admittedly very few eggs in the one basket. I reckon he would have.

The whales selfless acceptance of the responsibility to help save the human race in the 23rd century would not be logical. Certainly not to Spock. A logical underpinning regarding the plan, and the probe involved, would certainly be germane to any discussion that Spock had with the whales.

It's fine that it's never mentioned in the story. But I can't believe that Spock would not have considered it beneficial to lay all the cards on the table to see if it jogs any insight from the whales that he could use to optimise their chances of success, rather than to simply maintain faith, tacitly, in the plan hatched 300 years in the future, in the middle of a crisis.

[Geoff D]

Whoever said that whales were logical?