Fantastic Four (2015)

[Col. Zombie]

Originally Posted by MPeriolat

I find myself in a very awkward position now. I stand to eat a metric ton of crow if I'm wrong and the movie ends up being a success. On the other hand, I get to crow if it's as bad as I... well, am hoping. And let me emphasize, my schadenfreude comes from simply wanting the rights to revert, nothing personal against the cast and crew of Fantastic Four or even Fox.

So, I wait with bated breath. Dreading a success since I end up with egg on my face and the characters get trapped in potential mediocrity where a failure means more damage to the franchise, but it may be back in the hands of people wit a long term vision, but the ability to make lemonade out of lemons.

Idiom much?

[MPeriolat]

Originally Posted by Col. Zombie

Idiom much?

Finger across the throat means death. Metaphor.

Seriously, I do use idioms a lot, sorry about that. Just how I type/talk.

[Falaskan]

No one will care about the egg on your face because almost everyone wants this to fail for no other reason then for the rights to revert.

[duggie walker]

I know why people want the rights to FF and Spidey to revert back to Marvel - because they think they'll be done right - but I think we ought to be careful what we wish for.

Marvel already has a very packed slate, with two - sometimes three - movies a year planned for the foreseeable future. If ANT-MAN or DR STRANGE turn out great, there's no room for sequels even for them. Would you really want them to be trying to squeeze another two major series in there? Which upcoming films would you sacrifice for them? CAPTAIN MARVEL, THE INHUMANS?

The biggest threat to Marvel and - by extension - the cinematic genre is over-saturation. Quality will drop and audiences will get fatigued. By the end of Phase 3, there will be three "teams" - AVENGERS, GUARDIANS and INHUMANS - and I'm already nervous about crossover plans. The more characters there are in a single movie, the more chance that those films will be unsatisfying. Do they really need the FF in that mix too?

Fox have done pretty well with the X-MEN series, all in all, so it's not like other studios can't make good CBMs. It's just a matter of hiring the right people and allowing decisions to be based on love and enthusiasm rather than pure avarice. I, for one, will find it odd to see Spidey in an AVENGERS movie, just as I found it odd in the comics. He never seemed to fit naturally: Spidey works best as a standalone, imo. The last two Spidey films were poor but SPIDER-MAN 2 remains one of the best CBMs ever, in my book.

If Marvel had always owned the rights to FF and SPIDER-MAN, we'd probably only now be getting to the likes of THOR and a film like GUARDIANS possibly wouldn't have been made at all. I'm not liking what I've heard about this FF reboot but I'm open to the possibility that it might be good. Even if it's not, I don't think there's a hope in hell that the rights will revert to Marvel anytime soon and I'm cool with that. Let's save that for Phases 4 or 5, when the MCU might need a real shot in the arm.

And, I would add, wanting FF to fail for any reason is self-defeating, as is the silly rivalry with DC. These movies need to reach beyond a geek audience, to people who just see them all as generic superhero movies. If they start to see bad examples of the genre, they'll stop coming and that'll hit Marvel just as hard as anyone else. Make no mistake, this genre WILL fall out of favour at some point: It's just a matter of when.

[DisneyBlu]

Originally Posted by duggie walker

I know why people want the rights to FF and Spidey to revert back to Marvel - because they think they'll be done right - but I think we ought to be careful what we wish for.

Marvel already has a very packed slate, with two - sometimes three - movies a year planned for the foreseeable future. If ANT-MAN or DR STRANGE turn out great, there's no room for sequels even for them. Would you really want them to be trying to squeeze another two major series in there? Which upcoming films would you sacrifice for them? CAPTAIN MARVEL, THE INHUMANS?

Marvel, unlike a lot of other studios, has patience. They wouldn't pop out a Spider-Man or Fantastic Four film right away. Most likely, they would find the best fit for those characters to establish them and - when the schedule permits - utilize them in their own films. Theoretically, we'd still be able to see characters like Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, Doctor Doom, Silver Surfer, etc., placed in the properties where they would fit best (such as Hulk currently starring only in the Avengers films) until the time is right for them to get their own films.

The biggest threat to Marvel and - by extension - the cinematic genre is over-saturation. Quality will drop and audiences will get fatigued. By the end of Phase 3, there will be three "teams" - AVENGERS, GUARDIANS and INHUMANS - and I'm already nervous about crossover plans. The more characters there are in a single movie, the more chance that those films will be unsatisfying. Do they really need the FF in that mix too?

True, but over-saturation only becomes a threat when the movies are bad. If Marvel keeps offering up films like Iron Man, The Avengers, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, and Guardians of the Galaxy, audiences won't get fatigued. If it was Daredevil, after Elektra, after X-Men: The Last Stand, after X-Men Origins: Wolverine, after Green Lantern, after Jonah Hex, after Sin City: A Dame to Kill For, bad movie after bad movie after bad movie... audiences would get fatigued. Guardians of the Galaxy wouldn't have thrived the way it did if audiences were at risk of growing fatigued from comic book movies.

X-Men in 2000 really set it off in the modern era, Spider-Man in 2002 took the ball and ran with it, and Iron Man and The Dark Knight in 2008 solidified the comic book movie as a genre to be taken seriously. Since then - especially because of the Nolan Batman movies and the Marvel Studios films - comic book movies are more popular than ever. The Avengers is the number three movie of all time. Iron Man 3 is sixth. Guardians of the Galaxy is in the top of the most successful movies of 2014. Audiences can't get enough. How long that lasts, who knows, but as long as Marvel keeps making good movies, audiences will keep paying to see them, buying the merchandise, and purchasing the Blu-rays.

The key to battling over-saturation is simple: good movies. If every movie was a Green Lantern or a Blade III or a Daredevil, the comic book movie would have died off a decade ago.

I'll go so far as to say that the more properties that are home at Marvel, the less risk there is of over-saturation. At this point in time, we have no reason to doubt Marvel. No one is infallible, but you have more reason to think a Marvel movie will be good than you do to think it will be bad. But if other studios keep putting out crappy movies, like Rise of the Silver Surfer or X-Men Origins: Wolverine, those crappy movies risk running over-saturation. But I think the good ones (X-Men: Days of Future Past, Winter Soldier, etc.) are so good, that they compensate for the bad ones. As long as the majority of the comic book movies that get made are good movies, the bad ones will fail and the good ones will succeed.

Fox have done pretty well with the X-MEN series, all in all, so it's not like other studios can't make good CBMs. It's just a matter of hiring the right people and allowing decisions to be based on love and enthusiasm rather than pure avarice. I, for one, will find it odd to see Spidey in an AVENGERS movie, just as I found it odd in the comics. He never seemed to fit naturally: Spidey works best as a standalone, imo. The last two Spidey films were poor but SPIDER-MAN 2 remains one of the best CBMs ever, in my book.

I'm a huge Spider-Man fan -- he's my favorite. I definitely agree with you that he's best as a solo act. He does tend to feel out of place among the "big dogs," like Captain America and Thor, and taking on Avengers-level villains like Thanos and Kang. When he was on the New Avengers -- mostly other street level, urban vigilantes like himself -- that's more acceptable, but yeah, he's definitely better on his own. That's why the older comics most often had Spidey team up with other heroes and part ways by the end of the story, or have Spidey almost make it onto the Avengers, only to ultimately not join the team. He's best alone, but I wouldn't turn down the chance to get to see Spider-Man interacting with Captain America or Iron Man on the big screen.

Most of all, I want Spidey with Marvel because I feel that Marvel is making the best comic book movies, and I think they'd make the perfect Spider-Man movies. (Raimi's Spider-Man 2 is, I agree, one of the best comic book movies ever.) I think it would be weird seeing Spider-Man taking on Thanos in the movies -- he works best when he's the lone hero in the city, taking on guys the police couldn't stop themselves, like the Lizard, or Electro, Doc Ock, or Rhino. Even his cosmic adventures in the comics feel "off," but I know Marvel could make it work, should they go that route. Bare minimum, I just want Marvel making the Spider-Man movies, whether he's on the Avengers or not.

If Marvel had always owned the rights to FF and SPIDER-MAN, we'd probably only now be getting to the likes of THOR and a film like GUARDIANS possibly wouldn't have been made at all. I'm not liking what I've heard about this FF reboot but I'm open to the possibility that it might be good. Even if it's not, I don't think there's a hope in hell that the rights will revert to Marvel anytime soon and I'm cool with that. Let's save that for Phases 4 or 5, when the MCU might need a real shot in the arm.

I've seen that opinion expressed by many people over the years, but I highly disagree. By the time Guardians came out last year, Iron Man, Thor, Cap, and - most of all - The Avengers were already established hits, especially Iron Man 1-3 and The Avengers. They could pump out nothing but endless Iron Man and Avengers movies, but are they? No, they took a risk on Guardians of the Galaxy. They made Ant-Man. I really believe that even if they had Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four, they would still be making Doc Strange, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, the Inhumans, and whatever other B, C, D list characters they have in store for us.

And, I would add, wanting FF to fail for any reason is self-defeating, as is the silly rivalry with DC. These movies need to reach beyond a geek audience, to people who just see them all as generic superhero movies. If they start to see bad examples of the genre, they'll stop coming and that'll hit Marvel just as hard as anyone else. Make no mistake, this genre WILL fall out of favour at some point: It's just a matter of when.

If Fantastic Four is bad, it's as I said -- another strike against the genre. As long as the movie is actually good, sure, I want it to do well. But if it's not, it should rightfully fail. I think comic book movies at this point are strong enough and popular enough to withstand the failure of some comic book movies each year. The audiences will see the ones they want to see and they won't see the ones they don't want to see. But the failure of Fantastic Four (should it happen) won't stop them from seeing Batman v. Superman, or Captain America: Civil War, or Doctor Strange, or Justice League, or Black Panther, or Thor: Ragnorok, or Infinity War Parts I and II.

As comic book fans, the best we can hope for is that our favorite characters keep getting brought to the big screen in great movies, with larger and larger audiences supporting the characters we've treasured for so long. None of us wants to see the comic book movie go the way of the Western, and as long as these movies keep being well made and keep bringing in big numbers, they'll be with us for a good while longer.

[StingingVelvet]

Man you comic book readers are a passionate niche.

[MPeriolat]

Originally Posted by Falaskan

No one will care about the egg on your face because almost everyone wants this to fail for no other reason then for the rights to revert.

And that's a question I've honestly been asking myself and something that, on one hand, I make no secret that I'd like to see happen. That being said, do I WANT the movie to fail? No. I too do not like to see movies fail since I think more tripe out there makes it less likely for people to actually go and see movies.

We also have to remember there is simply no accounting for taste. We may be screaming for someone to be drawn and quartered after the trailer drops, but there may also be people out there who will see it and say 'That looks like fun, I'll go check it out.'. That's the beauty of the X factor for movies - there is something for everyone and, while fans of FF may be cringing at the thought of anyone dropping money on the movie, there are people out there who will do it.

And to be honest, I do not have clean hands when it comes to going to see disappointing movies. I paid to go see movies like Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and Twilight. The former, I just had hopes it would be good. The latter, I had a fiancé who dug the books. Point is I was one of those people who the critics of the movie look down their noses at. Well, we all make mistakes, don't we?

Look, all we know is fairly soon, we will have something we can at least begin to draw conclusions on rather than speculate and in August, when the box offices come in, we will either be vindicated or not, either side. And either way, the world will continue to spin.

[toddly6666]

Just remember, if the movie turns out good but totally not like the comic, what we have is a cinematic adaptation of Marvel's "What If" series, which would be cool.

What if Johnny Storm was black?
What if Doctor Doom was a blogger?
What if the FF4 didnt have costumes?
What if the FF4 were all young adults?

Didnt any of you read the awesome What If series when you were a kid? Keep your expectations thinking about this series and it may turn out to be a very awesome film. If the movie is just bad, then that's another story.

image.jpg

Well, that's how Im coping with these supposed changes anyway so that I can try to enjoy the film.

[djakrse]

Originally Posted by toddly6666

Just remember, if the movie turns out good but totally not like the comic, what we have is a cinematic adaptation of Marvel's "What If" series, which would be cool.

What if Johnny Storm was black?
What if Doctor Doom was a blogger?
What if the FF4 didnt have costumes?
What if the FF4 were all young adults?

Didnt any of you read the awesome What If series when you were a kid? Keep your expectations thinking about this series and it may turn out to be a very awesome film. If the movie is just bad, then that's another story.

Attachment 106363

Well, that's how Im coping with these supposed changes anyway so that I can try to enjoy the film.

The What If? series was one of my favorites. Once I started reading it, I felt like I'd discovered a gold mine.

I wish I could give Fox credit for that idea, but if this does turn out to be a decent movie, I'm putting a custom, What If? blu-ray cover and including a bit about how you saved this production.

[The Dragon]

Originally Posted by DisneyBlu

[Show spoiler]Marvel, unlike a lot of other studios, has patience. They wouldn't pop out a Spider-Man or Fantastic Four film right away. Most likely, they would find the best fit for those characters to establish them and - when the schedule permits - utilize them in their own films. Theoretically, we'd still be able to see characters like Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, Doctor Doom, Silver Surfer, etc., placed in the properties where they would fit best (such as Hulk currently starring only in the Avengers films) until the time is right for them to get their own films.



True, but over-saturation only becomes a threat when the movies are bad. If Marvel keeps offering up films like Iron Man, The Avengers, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, and Guardians of the Galaxy, audiences won't get fatigued. If it was Daredevil, after Elektra, after X-Men: The Last Stand, after X-Men Origins: Wolverine, after Green Lantern, after Jonah Hex, after Sin City: A Dame to Kill For, bad movie after bad movie after bad movie... audiences would get fatigued. Guardians of the Galaxy wouldn't have thrived the way it did if audiences were at risk of growing fatigued from comic book movies.

X-Men in 2000 really set it off in the modern era, Spider-Man in 2002 took the ball and ran with it, and Iron Man and The Dark Knight in 2008 solidified the comic book movie as a genre to be taken seriously. Since then - especially because of the Nolan Batman movies and the Marvel Studios films - comic book movies are more popular than ever. The Avengers is the number three movie of all time. Iron Man 3 is sixth. Guardians of the Galaxy is in the top of the most successful movies of 2014. Audiences can't get enough. How long that lasts, who knows, but as long as Marvel keeps making good movies, audiences will keep paying to see them, buying the merchandise, and purchasing the Blu-rays.

The key to battling over-saturation is simple: good movies. If every movie was a Green Lantern or a Blade III or a Daredevil, the comic book movie would have died off a decade ago.

I'll go so far as to say that the more properties that are home at Marvel, the less risk there is of over-saturation. At this point in time, we have no reason to doubt Marvel. No one is infallible, but you have more reason to think a Marvel movie will be good than you do to think it will be bad. But if other studios keep putting out crappy movies, like Rise of the Silver Surfer or X-Men Origins: Wolverine, those crappy movies risk running over-saturation. But I think the good ones (X-Men: Days of Future Past, Winter Soldier, etc.) are so good, that they compensate for the bad ones. As long as the majority of the comic book movies that get made are good movies, the bad ones will fail and the good ones will succeed.




I'm a huge Spider-Man fan -- he's my favorite. I definitely agree with you that he's best as a solo act. He does tend to feel out of place among the "big dogs," like Captain America and Thor, and taking on Avengers-level villains like Thanos and Kang. When he was on the New Avengers -- mostly other street level, urban vigilantes like himself -- that's more acceptable, but yeah, he's definitely better on his own. That's why the older comics most often had Spidey team up with other heroes and part ways by the end of the story, or have Spidey almost make it onto the Avengers, only to ultimately not join the team. He's best alone, but I wouldn't turn down the chance to get to see Spider-Man interacting with Captain America or Iron Man on the big screen.

Most of all, I want Spidey with Marvel because I feel that Marvel is making the best comic book movies, and I think they'd make the perfect Spider-Man movies. (Raimi's Spider-Man 2 is, I agree, one of the best comic book movies ever.) I think it would be weird seeing Spider-Man taking on Thanos in the movies -- he works best when he's the lone hero in the city, taking on guys the police couldn't stop themselves, like the Lizard, or Electro, Doc Ock, or Rhino. Even his cosmic adventures in the comics feel "off," but I know Marvel could make it work, should they go that route. Bare minimum, I just want Marvel making the Spider-Man movies, whether he's on the Avengers or not.



I've seen that opinion expressed by many people over the years, but I highly disagree. By the time Guardians came out last year, Iron Man, Thor, Cap, and - most of all - The Avengers were already established hits, especially Iron Man 1-3 and The Avengers. They could pump out nothing but endless Iron Man and Avengers movies, but are they? No, they took a risk on Guardians of the Galaxy. They made Ant-Man. I really believe that even if they had Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four, they would still be making Doc Strange, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, the Inhumans, and whatever other B, C, D list characters they have in store for us.



If Fantastic Four is bad, it's as I said -- another strike against the genre. As long as the movie is actually good, sure, I want it to do well. But if it's not, it should rightfully fail. I think comic book movies at this point are strong enough and popular enough to withstand the failure of some comic book movies each year. The audiences will see the ones they want to see and they won't see the ones they don't want to see. But the failure of Fantastic Four (should it happen) won't stop them from seeing Batman v. Superman, or Captain America: Civil War, or Doctor Strange, or Justice League, or Black Panther, or Thor: Ragnorok, or Infinity War Parts I and II.

As comic book fans, the best we can hope for is that our favorite characters keep getting brought to the big screen in great movies, with larger and larger audiences supporting the characters we've treasured for so long. None of us wants to see the comic book movie go the way of the Western, and as long as these movies keep being well made and keep bringing in big numbers, they'll be with us for a good while longer.

Disneyblu, I think, at the end of the day, what you're saying is MARVEL is showing restraint, patience even, in growing the genre, featuring these characters from their created universe into cinematic storytelling... Though a film may feature Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, etc., it's always leading to something else worthwhile. And, it happens to be somehow connected.
That's marketing. You're guaranteed a significant profit, as long as you keep the quality, expectations and anticipations, high, teasing audiences by giving them just enough, then pulling back, coz they'll come back for more.
Wow. It's almost like a drug dealer getting you hooked on his supply...

[AaronJ]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Man you comic book readers are a passionate niche.

Oh man, you have no idea.

Back when I used to read comics regularly and post in the thousands on comic book boards, the threads that would go on and on and on -- into the thousands of responses -- about very tiny arguments were a regular occurrence.

I remember a months-long argument on a Wonder Woman board concerning whether her new costume, the one with pants as opposed to a skirt, that ended with people being banned, suspended, leaving the board -- all over whether Diana should wear a skirt or pants.

Not kidding.

[Hellraiserfan]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Most of the problems I see people have with those leaks is "OMG NOT LIKE THE COMIC," which I couldn't care less about. Also: leaks are leaks, wait for real stuff.

Other than the rumors of how Trank was acting on set(which is false from reports), everything else that fans are pissed off about are real. Especially considering it can all be found in interviews with the cast.

I'm not even a fan of the FF comics but there's a line that shouldn't be crossed when making any adaptation. It comes down to that point where if it's so far removed from the source, why in the f*** didn't Trank just come up with his own idea. Oh that's right, they want to use the "name" to try and make more money off of it and keep the rights of course.

I really only want Marvel Studios to get the rights back to Silver Surfer, Galactus, Dr. Doom and Annihilus if Fox happens to have the rights to him as well. I never really got into the FF and even I know this movie sounds like a trainwreck. For all I know it might turn out to be a decent(at best)movie but as a FF film, it sounds like shit.

[toddly6666]

Originally Posted by djakrse

The What If? series was one of my favorites. Once I started reading it, I felt like I'd discovered a gold mine.

I wish I could give Fox credit for that idea, but if this does turn out to be a decent movie, I'm putting a custom, What If? blu-ray cover and including a bit about how you saved this production.

Ha, thanks! And send me one of those custom covers too!

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Hellraiserfan

Other than the rumors of how Trank was acting on set(which is false from reports), everything else that fans are pissed off about are real. Especially considering it can all be found in interviews with the cast.

I'm not even a fan of the FF comics but there's a line that shouldn't be crossed when making any adaptation. It comes down to that point where if it's so far removed from the source, why in the f*** didn't Trank just come up with his own idea. Oh that's right, they want to use the "name" to try and make more money off of it and keep the rights of course.

I really only want Marvel Studios to get the rights back to Silver Surfer, Galactus, Dr. Doom and Annihilus if Fox happens to have the rights to him as well. I never really got into the FF and even I know this movie sounds like a trainwreck. For all I know it might turn out to be a decent(at best)movie but as a FF film, it sounds like shit.

I didn't really mean all the leaks might be fake, just that hearing about them in that context is different from seeing it in motion. An evil blogger sounds kind of dumb, but on-screen it might work great within the context and movie around it. Hard to say, so wait for a trailer at least. That's my main point there.

As your later paragraphs make clear though, this is really more about you being a comic fan and Marvel fan. I can't share that, I don't care about comics, I think adaptations should be judged on their own merits and I think Fox have done better with X-Men than Marvel have done with their films.

[mwynn]

Not really convinced of Fox's direction with any of the Marvel licenses. Just looking at the two they have left.

Fantastic Four 2 movies then reboot.
X-men 5 movies, possibly 2 that were good and reboot.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by mwynn

X-men 5 movies, possibly 2 that were good and reboot.

7 movies, 5 of which were good and one which was decent. Origins was terrible.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

As your later paragraphs make clear though, this is really more about you being a comic fan and Marvel fan. I can't share that, I don't care about comics, I think adaptations should be judged on their own merits and I think Fox have done better with X-Men than Marvel have done with their films.

I agree with this (and I'm also not a fan of comic books) but the idea that adaptations should be judged on their own merits and/or every Marvel property should be produced by Marvel Studios because they're infallible is anathema to your standard fanboy.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

7 movies, 5 of which were good and one which was decent. Origins was terrible.

While I agree "Origins" had some bad moments, "The Last Stand" is still the worst overall. Taylor Kitsch was great as Gambit, and the same is true for Liev Schreiber as Victor. The fact of the matter is they simply tried to do too much, just like Ratner. In my opinion, "X2", "First Class", "The Wolverine", and "Days of Future Past" are the best in the series so far.

[Elandyll]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

While I agree "Origins" had some bad moments, "The Last Stand" is still the worst overall. Taylor Kitsch was great as Gambit, and the same is true for Liev Schreiber as Victor. The fact of the matter is they simply tried to do too much, just like Ratner. In my opinion, "X2", "First Class", "The Wolverine", and "Days of Future Past" are the best in the series so far.

Agreed on all counts

[AaronJ]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

7 movies, 5 of which were good and one which was decent. Origins was terrible.

7 movies, 2 of which were excellent, 3 of which were good, 1 of which was bad, and 1 of which was awful.