The Shining (1980)

[ravenus]

Originally Posted by JimDiGriz

Contrast the best horror film of all time with...The Babadook?! You've lost me there. The Babadook is very overrated in my opinion.

We're not comparing the quality of the overall film, but The Babadook is more focussed on the horror arising out of the disintegration of the family while the family seen in the film version of The Shining is a contrived unit, and nobody is really concerned with Jack and Wendy as husband and wife, they're individual actors doing their respective thing.
The Babadook fails in its cliched and literal presentation of the titular creature.

[English Patient]

Originally Posted by Martoto

I know you think that. I'm aware of that. I'm just telling you that you're wrong.

Actually, you're the one who's wrong. Sorry.

[rocknblues81]

Originally Posted by DR Herbert West

Cocaine made MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE.

Don't get me wrong, Maximum Overdrive is a fun terrible movie. It's entertaining for the wrong reasons.

[rocknblues81]

Originally Posted by surfdude12

She's perfect because she plays a perfect foil for Jack to mock

Jack: "You think MAYBE he should see a doctor?"

Jack: "When do you think MAYBE he should see a doctor?"

Wendy: "As soon as possible?"

Jack: "As soon as passssabbblleeee????"

Agreed. I liked her performance and character. She is annoying in her own ways though as a career, and its not a surprise that Jack just has enough and mocks the shit out of her for it.

[English Patient]

Originally Posted by ravenus

I think what Todd says here is very relevant and one of the reasons why people may have issues with the performances. It seems very improbable that a fiercely intelligent person like Jack would marry a simpering doormat like Wendy (unless he got her knocked up and her redneck dad forced a shotgun wedding). The idea of them being a family unit is not conveyed, and the horror of the film is not the emotional horror of a family coming apart, it's more a clever sleight-of-hand magic show (undeniably brilliant in itself).

That's a good point. In the few scenes in which Jack, Wendy and Danny are together, they don't seem all that comfortable together. And in much of the movie, all three are often shown in different parts of the hotel, disconnected from one another. The family doesn't seem to be coming apart - it's almost as if they were never really a cohesive family to begin with. Which is a departure from the book - King made it a point to show them as a loving family (albeit with problems) at the beginning.

[rocknblues81]

Originally Posted by ravenus

I think what Todd says here is very relevant and one of the reasons why people may have issues with the performances. It seems very improbable that a fiercely intelligent person like Jack would marry a simpering doormat like Wendy (unless he got her knocked up and her redneck dad forced a shotgun wedding). The idea of them being a family unit is not conveyed, and the horror of the film is not the emotional horror of a family coming apart, it's more a clever sleight-of-hand magic show (undeniably brilliant in itself). Contrast this with The Babadook where a lot of the horror comes from a mother-son relationship getting corrupted. The scenes where the mother spurns the needy child are genuinely stomach-churning.

Jack is clearly flawed himself. Smart guy? Sure, but flawed and sadly some men do like women that have low self-esteem and will just settle for being a punching bag. I figure Jack is probably verbally abusive toward Wendy and she takes it because she has low self-esteem and Danny of course. She doesn't seem to have a lot going for herself.

I just don't feel like I needed more of family drama here.

I don't really care how Kubrick's movie ties into King's novel. I'm just enjoying the film for what it is.

[koberulz]

Originally Posted by ravenus

The Babadook fails in its cliched and literal presentation of the titular creature.

I think you mean 'eponymous'.

[ravenus]

Originally Posted by koberulz

I think you mean 'eponymous'.

Ha, I didn't realize till now that they meant different things. Thanks

[surfdude12]

Originally Posted by Todd Tomorrow

I love Shelley Duvall her performance in 3 Women is one of my all time favourites. Wendy is underdeveloped in Kubrick’s The Shining, he didn’t give her much of a character, for much of the movie she’s just got to do bug-eyed panic. Kubrick frequently didn’t seem that interested in actors or the characters they played other than how they fit into his visual design. That remoteness is part of what makes his films intriguing, but it works against the horror mechanics of The Shining. I love the movie, but after Kubrick revolutionized science fiction it was expected that he would do so with horror and I don‘t think he did. There is much that is admirable about The Shining, but for me it doesn’t quite work as horror because I don’t really believe in the characters and the peril they are in, especially once Nicholson goes OTT and drags the film into comedy. Kubrick never makes Jack, Wendy and Danny believable as a family, not even a dysfunctional one.

But that's the whole point - Jack being the stereotypical alcoholic going "OTT" is the precisely the misdirection Kubrick ingeniously used so that all the viewers falsely concluded 2/3 way in that everything on the screen wasn't real and were instead occurring in Jack's crazy head. And then Kubrick smacked everyone in the face with the meat locker being unlocked and its revealed that Jack as the stereotypical alcoholic going "OTT" was pure bait

[ravenus]

Originally Posted by rocknblues81

Jack is clearly flawed himself. Smart guy? Sure, but flawed and sadly some men do like women that have low self-esteem and will just settle for being a punching bag. I figure Jack is probably verbally abusive toward Wendy and she takes it because she has low self-esteem and Danny of course. She doesn't seem to have a lot going for herself.

Which essentially means that it's a loveless relationship from the start, so again the horror of the Overlook has nothing to do with its psychological impact on the characters, it's more about the visual trappings.

I just don't feel like I needed more of family drama here.

I don't really care how Kubrick's movie ties into King's novel. I'm just enjoying the film for what it is.

Fair enough, I have seen the film a lot more times than read King's book and I enjoy the heck out of it. But people who have a problem with this aspect of the film are also not wrong per se.

[surfdude12]

Originally Posted by ravenus

I think what Todd says here is very relevant and one of the reasons why people may have issues with the performances. It seems very improbable that a fiercely intelligent person like Jack would marry a simpering doormat like Wendy (unless he got her knocked up and her redneck dad forced a shotgun wedding).

its improbable that an alcoholic abusive drunk ends up with a doormat?

[ravenus]

Originally Posted by surfdude12

its improbable that an alcoholic abusive drunk ends up with a doormat?

So you're saying that Jack was an abusive alcoholic at the time he married Wendy and theirs was always a bad relationship? Then where's the love that prompts him to clean up and seek a job that could set things right by his family? Isn't that the basic premise of why this family lands up at that place?

[myway]

Originally Posted by surfdude12

its improbable that an alcoholic abusive drunk ends up with a doormat?

Just one example of the Kubrick's brilliance in the adaptation; and similarly, where King was too close to the subject matter to be sufficiently objective.

[surfdude12]

Originally Posted by ravenus

So you're saying that Jack was an abusive alcoholic at the time he married Wendy and theirs was always a bad relationship? Then where's the love that prompts him to clean up and seek a job that could set things right by his family? Isn't that the basic premise of why this family lands up at that place?

your claim was its improbable that Jack "would marry" a doormat like Wendy

[rocknblues81]

Originally Posted by myway

Just one example of the Kubrick's brilliance in the adaptation; and similarly, where King was too close to the subject matter to be sufficiently objective.

Yeah, I'm not sure why anyone would expect Kubrick to take a dramatic approach to the breakdown of the family unit. That's not the kind of filmmaker that he was.

[moviebuff75]

I think it was a brilliant decision making Jack crazy from the start, because you just know that when he starts drinking, his madness will grow worse. And that is unnerving.

[rocknblues81]

Originally Posted by ravenus

Which essentially means that it's a loveless relationship from the start, so again the horror of the Overlook has nothing to do with its psychological impact on the characters, it's more about the visual trappings.

Fair enough, I have seen the film a lot more times than read King's book and I enjoy the heck out of it. But people who have a problem with this aspect of the film are also not wrong per se.

Jack is clearly more of a career oriented guy that seemingly sees family as more of a formality. Being married and having a family was a bigger deal in 1980 than it is now as we have become a more secular nation. While Jack seems confident in getting the job at the Overlook, it is obvious that he is not as confident as he first appears. During the bat scene he displays emotions that he never does in the rest of the film when he reminds her of his needs to live up to his responsibility. He clearly struggles with pressure and has likely failed at something fairly important in the business world. Which he clearly attempts to blame Wendy for.

It makes sense that a guy like this would pick a push over that would try to avoid conflict.

That's the way I've taken it. Kubrick is only going to put so much emphasis on this because he is more interested in the visual aspects of his movie.

[Martoto]

My impression of the film was that Jack was a pretty intelligent but messed up guy who had a problem with booze which lead him to take a crazy job in a remote hotel that happens to be "haunted", or it happens to accentuate all his problems and make them manifest in front of him and also in front the people close to him and who are affected by his problems. Kind of like the book. But better.

[eiknarf]

Originally Posted by Martoto

Kind of like the book. But better.

Agreed.
Especially because there's no reading involved when you watch Kubrick's movie.
Who wants to read for twelve hours when you can be done with the story in two hours?
I thought this was a movie forum? Where am I? BookRead.com or Blu-ray.com?

[JimDiGriz]

Originally Posted by ravenus

We're not comparing the quality of the overall film, but The Babadook is more focussed on the horror arising out of the disintegration of the family while the family seen in the film version of The Shining is a contrived unit, and nobody is really concerned with Jack and Wendy as husband and wife, they're individual actors doing their respective thing.
The Babadook fails in its cliched and literal presentation of the titular creature.

Ah OK. I didn't think The Babadook was as good as a few other horror films that came out the same sort of time like Sinister for instance.