For those worried about Warner Bros. letting their license expire... read on

[ScottSoBlu]

Originally Posted by joeorc

The following companies have entered into Blu-ray Disc Agreement (as of October 26, 2007)

Blu-ray Disc Read-Only Content Participant Agreement

Warner Brothers Entertainment Inc.

http://www.blu-raydisc.info/flla_lic...ts.php#ROM2CPA

Question: Does that mean "As at" Oct 26th, meaning Warner was on the list at the time? IF that list were updated, say, on November 5th would Warner still be there, since their contract expired on Oct 31?

I just want to make sure we are interpreting the "As of Oct 26" thing correctly?

[UTVOL06]

Originally Posted by Esox50

Has to be something related to software...

Pirates 3? Independance day? Week 49 is gonna be a killer software week against HD-DVD.

[bajor27]

I think you're right ScottSoBlu. The way I read it, it's just as at that date. There is no way that all of those companies renewed or started contacts on October 26. It's definitely just who had contacts at the time in my opinion

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by ScottSoBlu

Question: Does that mean "As at" Oct 26th, meaning Warner was on the list at the time? IF that list were updated, say, on November 5th would Warner still be there, since their contract expired on Oct 31?

I just want to make sure we are interpreting the "As of Oct 26" thing correctly?

as of OCT 26th Warner signed a license agreement for 5 years of content support for Blu-ray.. ,TAKE AWAY WITH THAT ANY WAY YOU WANT...

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by UTVOL06

Pirates 3? Independance day? Week 49 is gonna be a killer software week against HD-DVD.

No, i think the fact that the article talks about people not wanting to replace their entire libraries, but then goes on to say that they wanted to get player prices down first...

Thus, I suspect it's some sort of "breakthrough" in either disc production (and associated cost which would allow them to reduce software prices) or special features/interactivity (that will give consumer incentive to replace their libraries)...

Theoretically, either one could be seen as causing people to run out and replace their DVD collections...

[UTVOL06]

Originally Posted by Esox50

No, i think the fact that the article talks about people not wanting to replace their entire libraries, but then goes on to say that they wanted to get player prices down first...

Thus, I suspect it's some sort of "breakthrough" in either disc production (and associated cost which would allow them to reduce software prices) or special features/interactivity (that will give consumer incentive to replace their libraries)...

Theoretically, either one could be seen as causing people to run out and replace their DVD collections...

Oh yeah, I think I remember hearing about Blu disc manufacturing costs will go down. Hopefully we will get DVD disc pricing sooner than later.

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by Esox50

No, i think the fact that the article talks about people not wanting to replace their entire libraries, but then goes on to say that they wanted to get player prices down first...

Thus, I suspect it's some sort of "breakthrough" in either disc production (and associated cost which would allow them to reduce software prices) or special features/interactivity (that will give consumer incentive to replace their libraries)...

Theoretically, either one could be seen as causing people to run out and replace their DVD collections...

,

[joeorc]

things the majority of HD DVD supporters have not taken into account in DISC development for Blu-ray cost reduction.

remember HD DVD is on the same production lines ad DVD so it only requires a small upgrade..yup gotcha...good for HD DVD...READ ON

AND NOTICE THIS DATE:

Nov 1st, 2004

Format war pits HD-DVD against Blu-ray disc

By Stephen Moore and Clare Goldsberry

With Hollywood forecasting DVD sales to start dropping in 2007 and increased competition from video-on-demand delivered over cable networks, the race is on to commercialize the next revenue-generating blockbuster format-high-definition DVD. Full-scale rollout of the new format is slated for late 2005.

But in a repeat of the Betamax versus VHS format war of the 1980s, two rival camps are pushing competing formats with little chance of a compromise. "One sure thing is that there will not be two surviving formats," says Bill Foster, senior technology consultant at market watcher Understanding & Solutions, Dunstable, UK.

Heading up the HD-DVD format camp are Japanese heavyweights NEC, Toshiba, and Sanyo. The disc structure (see table on page 29) is essentially an extension of existing DVDs, but with smaller pit size and track pitch. As the format employs advanced data compression techniques, disc capacity of 15 GB in a single layer and 30 GB using a double layer is more than sufficient for pre-recorded high-definition content equivalent to a movie plus bonus content, seen as the main application in the U.S., and recording of high-definition TV broadcasts in Japan, viewed as the primary use there, according to the format's promoters

In the blue corner, meanwhile, is a group of 13 leaders in consumer electronics, computers, and media, including Philips, Sony, and Dell, known as the Blu-ray Disc Founders, which is a group formed in May 2002 to "pursue broad acceptance of the Blu-ray disc formats." The 25-GB/50-GB Blu-ray disc has a totally different structure from existing DVD formats. The data/recording layer resides on top of a 1.1-mm substrate that is covered with a .1-mm-thick, typically solution-cast or spin-coated polycarbonate film, plus a protective hardcoat.

The two new formats claim various merits. In the case of HD-DVD, existing production equipment can be employed with minor modifications. According to Japanese disc replicator Memory-Tech (Tokyo), production can be switched between DVDs and HD-DVDs in five minutes merely by changing the stamper and molding parameters to accommodate the tighter specifications. This is seen as a key merit of the format, given that DVDs and HD-DVDs are likely to coexist in the market for many years.

Similarities with existing DVDs have also seen replicators make rapid strides in ramping up production efficiencies. Memory-Tech achieved a 3.5-second production cycle for dual-layer HD-DVDs on an existing DVD line at its Kofu factory in August with greater than 90% yield, and it targets a sub-3-second production cycle on two new lines custom-configured for HD-DVDs that it installed in October. This would put production efficiency on a par with conventional DVDs. The lines cost only around $15,000 more apiece than standard DVD lines.

In terms of production costs, North American replicator Cinram International Inc. (Scarborough, ON) says that in the short term, while HD-DVD costs may be higher due to tighter tolerances resulting in slower cycle times, as the product matures, costs will approach that of DVDs. Toshiba, however, goes further, claiming that while initial manufacturing costs will be 10% to 15% higher than DVDs, they will decline to 5% to 10% higher in 2006 and match current DVDs three to four years from now.

"Future-proof" structure?

The disc structure of the Blu-ray format, meanwhile, requires new downstream equipment for bonding, coating, and inspection, as well as new mastering technology, although machine suppliers say existing DVD injection presses are more than capable of molding the 1.1-mm-thick substrates to the required tolerances. "A lot of replicators already have extensive experience in molding 1.1-mm-thick substrates as this is the minimum spec for CDs," notes Understanding & Solutions' Foster. Moreover, the need for just one injection machine instead of two for HD-DVDs offsets the extra cost of downstream equipment for applying the cover layer and hardcoat according to Sony.

Furthermore, Philips notes that the tolerance on disc flatness is actually less stringent than for a conventional DVD as the data layer is closer to the surface. Overall, Sony says injection molding costs are lower due to the requirement to mold a single 1.1-mm substrate with noncritical optical characteristics.



http://www.modplas.com/inc/mparticle...ory11012004_01

[joeorc]

Furthermore, Philips notes that the tolerance on disc flatness is actually less stringent than for a conventional DVD as the data layer is closer to the surface. Overall, Sony says injection molding costs are lower due to the requirement to mold a single 1.1-mm substrate with noncritical optical characteristics.

But the proximity of the data layer to the surface is also a drawback in that scratches, fingerprints, and other contamination more readily affect data recording and reading. In fact, the first commercial recordable Blu-ray discs from Sony come in protective caddies. However, Philips and Sony claim that with advanced hardcoat technology, caddy-less Blu-ray discs will eventually be more robust than DVDs, both for scratches and fingerprints.

Cost-wise, Sony says it can pare manufacturing costs to around a 10% premium over DVDs assuming production of 10 million/month, yield of 90%, machine uptime of 90%, and cycle time of 4 seconds. Initial yields were 70%.

A 4-second cycle time has already been achieved at Sony Digital Audio Disc Corp. (Terre Haute, IN) on existing DVD injection machines. The firm has also confirmed existing sputtering equipment can be used. The current cycle for downstream processes for a dual-layer disc is 5 seconds. Despite this progress, replicators concur that the overall learning curve is steeper due to new downstream processes.

"The longer cycle time for Blu-ray discs is a limitation of the 1.1-mm substrate thickness," says Jose Fischli, application manager for optical discs at Netstal Maschinen AG (Naefels, Switzerland). Fischli adds that continuity and reliability will be words used more often in the future. "If the machine and the downstream are able to run without any stops or disturbances, the substrate yield will still be high [for the new formats]." Echoes machine supplier Meiki (Ohbu, Japan), "The technology level is there. The question will be, can you maintain repeatability over long production runs."

Despite its various cost and technical challenges, Blu-ray proponents stress their format is a truly significant step both in data capacity and data rate (which relates to image quality), rather than a [lower capacity] intermediate solution. "Smaller pit size means the data rate is 1.4 times that of HD-DVDs," says Philips.

They also stress that it is "future-proof." Four-layer discs with capacity of 100 GB have been produced in the laboratory and a road map exists for a 200-GB disc. According to the Blu-ray Founders' website, "The format is designed to last for a period of at least 10 to 15 years. Due to its enormous storage capacity, short-term replacement of the technology is unnecessary, unlike other format proposals that might require less investment in advance, but higher investments in the long term due to the replacement of the technology when it becomes outdated."

Some, however, question whether such high capacities will ever be needed. Notes Haruhiko Noborisaka, manager of corporate planning at Memory-Tech, counters, "We can also produce a four-layer HD-DVD disc at much lower cost than that of a four-layer Blu-ray disk, but we believe it will not be commercialized."

So which format will eventually prevail? Dominick DellaVerde, senior director at replicator Cinram, says, "This will depend largely on studio preference. We're trying to prepare to do either format." Incidentally, Blu-ray disc proponent Sony owns Columbia Tristar and recently acquired Hollywood's last major independent studio, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, for $5 billion.
Material options

An interesting implication of the Blu-ray structure is that the substrate no longer plays an optical role-theoretically, it can be molded from any material that meets other physical requirements such as heat resistance and low moisture adsorption. Sony and Toppan Printing Co. (Tokyo), for example, have developed a 25-GB paper-based Blu-ray disc.

GE Advanced Materials (GEAM; Pittsfield, MA) notes that Blu-ray discs molded from PC have an asymmetrical structure that is prone to "dynamic tilt" under changing humidity conditions. "With standard PC, a moisture barrier needs to be sputtered on, which adds another process step," according to Matt Niemeyer, Technical Development Leader at GEAM's Optical Media Development Center. GEAM is working toward using its Noryl mPPO material in Blu-ray disc substrates. Moisture adsorption is around 30% that of PC, and H2O swell strain is one-fifth. GEAM is also working with sister firm GE Silicones to develop a cover layer incorporating hardcoat functionality.

Clare Goldsberry

Molding the future of optical media

Whether or not the Blu-ray or HD-DVD format wins out in the race to become the next standard in optical media, the select group of moldmakers that serve this growing niche will gain business.

Currently, CDs are made from a 1.2-mm substrate while DVDs are created from two .6-mm substrates that are bonded together, requiring two tools. HD-DVD would also use two .6-mm substrates, but the micro and, in some cases, nano pits and tracks that store data on the discs surface will require much finer detail and new molds.

The Blu-ray discs, meanwhile, are currently 1.1 mm thick with a .1-mm film added, requiring another tool but offering a payoff in storage capacity. The new format could store 25 GB of data compared to .65 GB for CDs and 4.7 GB for DVDs.

But as storage capacity goes up, so, too, does the detail required in the mold-cavity inserts, or "stamps", that actually create the V-, A-, and U-shaped micro and submicro features where data are stored. To achieve such detail, AWM Mold Service-a Swiss-based toolmaker and subsidiary of adval tech Holding AG that has served this demanding market since the early-80s-employs an atomic force microscope with a maximum measure surface of 10 by 10 µm and the ability to view features as small as 2 to 3 nanometers.

Cranking out more than 3000 tools and joining the five shops that account for 95% of the world's optical disc tools globally, AWM forecasts sales of prerecorded DVDs to hit 1 billion in the next one to two years, with half of those made in the U.S. and Japan. AWM's Martin Osterode says outlooks like that and its market position keep the company going regardless of the disc format.

"You may remember the different formats that we used to have for video," Osterode says. "VHS, Video 2000, Betamax-they were competing with their products side by side. Eventually, VHS took over, but it took awhile, and we may see something similar with the next generation of optical discs."

Tony Deligio

[blu2]

Originally Posted by ScottSoBlu

Question: Does that mean "As at" Oct 26th, meaning Warner was on the list at the time? IF that list were updated, say, on November 5th would Warner still be there, since their contract expired on Oct 31?

I just want to make sure we are interpreting the "As of Oct 26" thing correctly?

Folks - the OP has posted information that in no way relates to Warner's BDA board membership, so there is no point relating it to the "contract expiry". What the status of said membership is, I have no idea, but I believe things are being mixed up in this thread.

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by blu2

Folks - the OP has posted information that in no way relates to Warner's BDA board membership, so there is no point relating it to the "contract expiry". What the status of said membership is, I have no idea, but I believe things are being mixed up in this thread.

HOW DO YOU KNOW...that it does not relate to Warner Bros. Board Membership..? not only are they content providers they also have patents in both HD DVD and Blu-Ray

Board of Directors
Companies participating in the Board of Directors are active participants of the format creation and key BDA activities. They are selected from the Contributors by election. The board sets an overall strategy and approves key issues. A board member can participate in all activities and attend all meetings. The Blu-ray Disc Founder companies will make up the initial Board of Directors.
Annual fee: $ 50,000

page 13..Warner would have to notify the BDA 30 day's prior even if they let their membership go default...they would still know and get a heads up otherwise because the BDA sends you a letter 15 days..

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/do...1.3)-13758.pdf

thus warner has to renew by jan 1st ..thus right now sept..still has listed Warner Bros. as a board of directors....and OCT 26 they still signed up as a content supporter for Blu-Ray...

here straight from blu-raydisc.com

Last updated: September 2007



Board of Directors
Apple, Inc.
Dell
HP
Hitachi
LG
Mitsubishi Electric
Panasonic
Pioneer
Philips
Samsung
Sharp
Sony
Sun Microsystems
TDK
Thomson
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney
Warner Bros.

[RedIsNotBlue]

Anyone have any facts here or is it just making something bigger than it is?

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by RedIsNotBlue

Anyone have any facts here or is it just making something bigger than it is?

these are fact's

if you go to blu-raydisc.com
under about us...THEY LIST THIS WEBSITE

http://www.blu-raydisc.info

if you go to that web page under license agreements :

The following companies have entered into Blu-ray Disc Agreement (as of October 26, 2007)

Blu-ray Disc Read-Only Content Participant Agreement

Warner Brothers Entertainment Inc.

how long is the CPA for ...5 years

look at the dates...there is rumor's on AVS that Warner Bros. did not renew their BOARD MEMBERSHIP...before the $98.00 low cost player was even put out if they were stepping down from the BOD they would have to had to notify the BDA 30 days prior to them stepping down. look at the dates...they ware still on the board of Directors in AUG because the new site was updated recently on Blu-raydisc.com but everyone commented they never updated the site until recently.
before they updated with AUG listed the recent updated board of directors listed March 2007....
its now NOV..and the end of the current renew would be DEC 31 that means they would already have to notify the BDA if they were stepping DOWN THIS MONTH would be the ONE .and the 4th Q: is not over with yet ANYWAY BY SILVERBERGS WORDS WE ARE GOING TO SEE HOW 4Q: ends so the fact they are still on the BOD..could that change yes, but we may have a while yet anyway

[Scrapanatchi]

the end date was supposed to be on the 31st.. i'm still not 100% sure they renewed

[Jimbo976]

Anyone see this?

http://www.tvsnob.com/archives/014477.php

[Blu-Style]

Originally Posted by Jimbo976

Anyone see this?

http://www.tvsnob.com/archives/014477.php

"The editor over at hi-def.com has put together a list of why WB would probably chose HD DVD over Blu-ray and it's quite convincing."

I say, WB is going Blu...

now it´s word against word

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by Scrapanatchi

the end date was supposed to be on the 31st.. i'm still not 100% sure they renewed

.its DEC 31..that is .by the BDA's own by law's...so rumor vs.. the BDA's own BY LAWS which do you think is true....

[tron3]

Somewhere on another thread someone mentioned that Warner was going to improve their BD movie conversions. No more "Warner Effect" of putting HD DVD on BD.

Can anyone verify this factually for me?

[radagast]

Originally Posted by blu2

You should ask joearc. It was his text, not that of the article.

Yes. There wasn't a clear delineation between quotes from the article and the so-called "trump card" statement. That was not in the article.

[spam.curitiba]

IF WB's contract was expired don't you think they would get in trouble for releasing movies on the format which they plan on doing for the rest of the year?