SVS PC ultra has SERIOUS bass

[dobyblue]

Making sure I can feel a clean 12Hz is important to me and if you do use a test tone disc you'll find at that level every Hz shows a big difference.

The PB-13 Ultra has good output at the lower Hz, but lots of distortion.
I sacrificed straight dB output for low distortion going with the Paradigm Servo 15v2.

At 95dB output the Servo will hit 15Hz at -10dB with 3% distortion.
At 95dB output the PB-13 Ultra will hit 15Hz at -12dB with 16% distortion.

Those measurements are taken in 20Hz tuning mode for the SVS, because in any other mode distortion goes through the roof in those lower frequencies.

Originally Posted by mr peepers

The only time you're able to hear anything in the 20hz range and 20khz range is when you're a new born baby. the high and low end spectrum of your hearing has since been VERY degraded. so i'd be really impressed if any of you could still hear below 30hz.

That's not true at all, the lower end of the hearing rarely degrades.
The higher end does, but even into your 30's and 40's plenty of people can still hear 18kHz and beyond. I just listened to an 18kHz test tone and it's VERY loud. The 20kHz is noticeable, but nowhere near as much.

You can google test tones to get some free ones.

Originally Posted by MacDaddyOJack

Pipe organs can go down to 12Hz. And you must not have ever heard an SVS! I'm not sure about 10Hz, but I know they can hit 12 in the proper configuration. While you won't hear it that low, you will certainly feel it.

There aren't too many dvd's or BD's with frequencies that low. And classical music is what has the most data recorded in frequencies that low. However, there are plenty of BD's with strong activity at or below 20 Hz so it is definitely not a waste to get a good subwoofer.

The lowest note on a pipe organ is 16.4Hz.

The first octave runs through 16Hz to 30Hz.

Because lossy encoding doesn't remove much in the low end, some DVD's do hit extreme frequencies. There are passages on The Incredibles that hit 5Hz.

I was listening to a 10Hz test tone on my Paradigm, it makes it move with some serious force, but there isn't much output. Paradigm claims 12Hz and there is definitely much more movement throughout the room when it hits 12Hz. As it passes through 16-21Hz you're definitely feeling it in your chest and in your breathing. It's a pretty awesome experience.

Here's a pretty cool review of the Servo 15v2 - I link to this because it lists some of the time codes on the passages of The Incredibles.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...05-part-2.html

Rocket Blast Blows Out of Tunnel; 105-108 dB: Talk about infrasonics - this sequence has strong content right down to 5 Hz! This is another extremely demanding passage where I could induce some output compression if I pushed the Servo-15 too hard. At about 10 clicks under Dolby Reference Level, the Servo-15 sounded great on this scene, cleanly digging to below 20 Hz with authority. As bass heads and fans of this DVD will attest, the rocket lift-off sounds eerily lifelike with the right subwoofer. The Servo-15 nailed all the subtle nuances and sound effects – especially the knocking and rattling sound effect toward the end of this passage.

When I get a bigger HT room, I'll add another Servo15v2.

This is a pretty cool depiction of the orchestra and what frequencies are re-produced. Of course, with synthesized music all bets are off, but for most known instruments this is the approximate frequency response.

[mr peepers]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

Yeah, despite all the wall shaking etc.... I couldn't feel "wave after wave" but if I lightly clenched (clench isn't a good word) my teeth, they'd rattle!!! pretty fun!!! but like I said, If most people here heard my system, they'd think I have the sub way too low, but I try to make my system SOUND GOOD, not shake/vibrate stuff..... if you're just trying to feel the bass, get a butt-kicker installed, I myself prefer to use bass to fill the room at appropriate times, and not sound like a car-wreck when someone sets down a glass, or shuts a door.

I'm gonna watch U-571 when I go home...... it's deep, low bass sustained for a long time..... It's great!


EDIT.... also, funny you mention that, I see you have a ML sub.... I'm thinking about getting one, and getting rid of the Def-Tech. I am having a hard time setting it up, and I really think it's a little over-kill for my system. The Abyss in the downward firing configuration (or even the Dynamo) suits my needs better (and would free up cash for an amp upgrade) I've auditioned both, and the Dynamo I got to audition in my home.

it may be overkill with that def tech, but man it sure would be nice to have. haha.

ive been trying to find another abyss sub to add to my system, just to even out the bass a little more. because i've got the one in downward firing mode and it fills my room plenty, but you can still tell that theres a somewhat general direction its coming from.

i bought mine with a friends employee discount at best buy for 450$ and change, down from 899$. i see now they're up to 999$ retail at best buy and my friend doesnt work at best buy anymore

if you're in the market for one and dont particularly need it new, i've been eyeing this one up on ebay. one of the abyss subs really only show up on ebay once a month, maybe? and i really dont think i can justify pulling the trigger on another sub right now. so if its something youre interested in, keep an eye on it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Martin-Logan-Aby...QQcmdZViewItem

[Beta Man]

thanks!

When I get home, I'll throw a bid at it..... if I can scoop this up for $400 plus shipping, that'd be great! Any idea how much they usually go for on steal-bay? I know they're $1,000 new on Amazon right now, but also know (thanks to another member here) that Tweeter had a BLOW-OUT on them, and was selling the Abyss for $550, the Dynamo for $320, and they even had a Grotto for $300 or so (THAT is a good deal on an old sub)

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

not sure about "THAT" low, but I find most "bass-demo" SACDs to be Classical Music..... a LOT of low tones in Cello, etc.

I have several test tone cd's - my subs can produce a 10 hz signal, but unfortunately the woofer excursion is so great I dare not keep it there.On the other hand they produce 18hz and above with extreme authority.

[mr peepers]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

That's not true at all, the lower end of the hearing rarely degrades.
The higher end does, but even into your 30's and 40's plenty of people can still hear 18kHz and beyond. I just listened to an 18kHz test tone and it's VERY loud. The 20kHz is noticeable, but nowhere near as much.

You can google test tones to get some free ones.

my god, my Record Theory IV professor would be ashamed of me right now. haha.

i could have sworn i have written down or read somewhere that both ends of our hearing spectrum degrade drastically the first few years since we were born. although, its been about 3 years since I took that class and have since graduated but havent done anything in the music field since. so......ha. yeah. music/art degrees. haha.


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Beta Man

thanks!

When I get home, I'll throw a bid at it..... if I can scoop this up for $400 plus shipping, that'd be great! Any idea how much they usually go for on steal-bay? I know they're $1,000 new on Amazon right now, but also know (thanks to another member here) that Tweeter had a BLOW-OUT on them, and was selling the Abyss for $550, the Dynamo for $320, and they even had a Grotto for $300 or so (THAT is a good deal on an old sub)

i havent seen one on ebay for a couple months now, and doing a search on completed listings proves that notion because it doesnt have any recent record of an abyss auction selling or listed on ebay.

I really cant imagine over 500$ used though. My god, if i knew they were blowing these guys out at 550$ new and dynamo for even cheaper i would have snatched up a couple pairs of these. EEEeefffffffffff man.

how did you like that dynamo? I havent demoed it at all actually, but love to know how it stands to the abyss. i can only assume a bit more cleaner with a little more punch with the 10" speaker....

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by mr peepers

my god, my Record Theory IV professor would be ashamed of me right now. haha.

i could have sworn i have written down or read somewhere that both ends of our hearing spectrum degrade drastically the first few years since we were born. although, its been about 3 years since I took that class and have since graduated but havent done anything in the music field since. so......ha. yeah. music/art degrees. haha.



beta-man, how did you like that dynamo? I havent demoed it at all actually, but love to know how it stands to the abyss. i can only assume a bit more cleaner with a little more punch with the 10" speaker....

Honestly.... that's why I was torn between the two. From auditioning them side-by-side in the store, The Dynamo seemed to be a little more responsive than the Abyss, and it went LOW also, but the Abyss seemed to carry the low tone a little better. That being said, I listen to a lot of music, and although they'd both work (I'd get the Abyss if I got a good ebay deal on it) The Dynamo matches my system quite nicely because I don't have large drivers in my Fronts/Center/Surrounds (All B&W 700's) I think this is why the Def-Tech didn't work out too well for me.

The Dynamo and Abyss both reacted well to explosions etc... (the demo was Casino Royale, in addition to music) they just gave off different tones, I'd say for a smaller room, you'd have a hard time differentiating the two during low bass, but during tight-fast bass, the Dynamo would be easy to pick out in a blind test.

[mr peepers]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

Honestly.... that's why I was torn between the two. From auditioning them side-by-side in the store, The Dynamo seemed to be a little more responsive than the Abyss, and it went LOW also, but the Abyss seemed to carry the low tone a little better. That being said, I listen to a lot of music, and although they'd both work (I'd get the Abyss if I got a good ebay deal on it) The Dynamo matches my system quite nicely because I don't have large drivers in my Fronts/Center/Surrounds (All B&W 700's) I think this is why the Def-Tech didn't work out too well for me.

The Dynamo and Abyss both reacted well to explosions etc... (the demo was Casino Royale, in addition to music) they just gave off different tones, I'd say for a smaller room, you'd have a hard time differentiating the two during low bass, but during tight-fast bass, the Dynamo would be easy to pick out in a blind test.

damnit. it may be in my best interest as well to try and grab a pair of dynamos because i have def tech mythos all around with 5 1/4" drivers.

ugh. well, best of luck with the abyss on ebay. you'll have to let me know if you grab it or if you go another way with the dynamos or something different and how it matches with the rest of your system. because you got what, 6 or 6.5" driver in those 700's? with the drivers in these def techs being even smaller, it'd be interesting to compare and see what best fits in your system.

something for me to consider as well when i feel ready to stomach another grand or so on subs if i do decide to change it up

[Beta Man]

I have the 703/705/HTM7 and they all have 6.5" drivers.

Well... look at it this way, if you can get $500 for your Abyss, going to a dual Dynamo set-up wouldn't set you back that much..... but honestly, I'd think you would want to play around with placement some more, and avoid a dual-sub setup. I think the Abyss will get you where you want to go, but maybe you don't have it in the most ideal place (plus, since it's front OR downward firing, you have even more placement options to try)

[ay221]

I used this guys reviews on subs to buy mines. I would of got the elemental if I had the room for it.
http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11

reading another forum, this guy likes the MFW-15 for the price:

We put the Servo v2 up against the Ultra 13 in a recent test, the the Ultra beat it handily in terms of output and SQ. Craigsub rated the "single" MFW-15 quite favorably and very close to the Pb13 overall. That is the sub I would buy right now for under $1,000 to CDA shipped. Duals would of course kick butt, but that would go slightly over your budget.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...Paradigm+Servo

[mr peepers]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

I have the 703/705/HTM7 and they all have 6.5" drivers.

Well... look at it this way, if you can get $500 for your Abyss, going to a dual Dynamo set-up wouldn't set you back that much..... but honestly, I'd think you would want to play around with placement some more, and avoid a dual-sub setup. I think the Abyss will get you where you want to go, but maybe you don't have it in the most ideal place (plus, since it's front OR downward firing, you have even more placement options to try)

valid points. im pretty limited in placement options as it is now since its all located in a medium sized bedroom. so i've only been able to try a select few places that were never ideal to begin with.

i'll definitly be waiting till i move my stuff out to a bigger room in the house before i make any rash decisions for sure. i love the abyss that i have now, so i'm definitely keen on moving this guy around some to find a better sweet spot

if you can grab that guy off ebay for a decent price, go for it i say. if after a little testing and moving around, you find it doesnt quite fit the bill, throw it up on ebay and you'll almost definitely get your money back.

hell, i'll even take it off your hands for what you get for it on ebay if you do nab it


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Beta Man

I have the 703/705/HTM7 and they all have 6.5" drivers.

beautiful speakers by the way.

[Beta Man]

You've got the abyss in a bedroom

Wow... I don't have a dedicated theater room, and it's a long living room that opens up into a dining room, so direction sound is contained, but bass is hard to contain within the viewing space (if that made sense )

either way.... I think 2 abyss' in a bedroom would be a LOT of bass!!!!

[mr peepers]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

You've got the abyss in a bedroom

Wow... I don't have a dedicated theater room, and it's a long living room that opens up into a dining room, so direction sound is contained, but bass is hard to contain within the viewing space (if that made sense )

either way.... I think 2 abyss' in a bedroom would be a LOT of bass!!!!

haha, i know 2 abyss' in a bedroom would be way too much. just the one abyss is already pushing it.

I've been renovating our basement for the last couple months here between time off work and as extra money is available, which is where i'll be moving my stuff. Our basement here is somewhat similar to your living room. Its basically a long, rectangular room that opens up to different rooms from the side towards the back.

ive been kind of preparing for the big move ever since i've gotten into blu ray. everything in my room is currently over kill for the size of the room. but when the time comes when i get to move into a room twice as wide and three times as long, i'd like to be as prepared as financially possible

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by ay221

reading another forum, this guy likes the MFW-15 for the price:

We put the Servo v2 up against the Ultra 13 in a recent test, the the Ultra beat it handily in terms of output and SQ. Craigsub rated the "single" MFW-15 quite favorably and very close to the Pb13 overall. That is the sub I would buy right now for under $1,000 to CDA shipped. Duals would of course kick butt, but that would go slightly over your budget.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...Paradigm+Servo

Umm, you're quoting some guy that says that he put up two subs in "a test" providing nothing at all in terms of source material used, location, settings, how the performances were judged, etc.?

Here's another quote from the same poster:

Originally Posted by pbc

When I eventually settled on my Ultra

So how exactly did he compare the Servo15v2 with the Ultra? Buy the Ultra and take it to a Paradigm dealer and run tests side by side? What's his basis for "SQ"?

I prefer actual test results than anecdotal evidence.

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....t=0&rid=0&SQ=0

The PB-13 Ultra has more output than the Servo 15v2 by anywhere from 1-10dB depending on what you're trying to push. The Servo LIMITS output to avoid distortion.

And yes, the MFW-15 for $599 sounds like an incredible sub. At $599 there isn't another sub under $1,500 I'd recommend ahead of it.

[Chris7277]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

Although I haven't listened to the sub you have, I'm fairly confident my subwoofer is capable of going lower/louder without distorting..... but if you enjoy it... fine.

what is your sub again? that gives you "real" bass?

I am using the PB13 Ultra. Lovin every second of it.

[ay221]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2015

This guy went from dual servos to dual Ultras and loves the change.

[musicman1999]

Bass is very room dependent, throwing more subs at a room is seldom the way to fix it properly. I would sooner have one properly set up, well positioned descent quality sub than two or three subs just positioned anywhere. Proper placement is key to good bass, your sub should be invisible in the room, you should not be able to place it by ear.


bill

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by ay221

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2015

This guy went from dual servos to dual Ultras and loves the change.

Of course, the original Servo15 is ten+ years old!!!
Who wouldn't love that change.
The Servo15 was only 400 watts in a sealed enclosure.
Look at the difference between the original Servo and the Sig Servo (which is the same as the Servov2)

Original Servo15 400w


Sig Servo/Servo15v2 1500w


Let's not try and mislead people here.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Of course, the original Servo15 is ten+ years old!!!
Who wouldn't love that change.
The Servo15 was only 400 watts in a sealed enclosure.
Look at the difference between the original Servo and the Sig Servo (which is the same as the Servov2)

Let's not try and mislead people here.

Judging by the frequency response graphs you posted, I'd say the Servo 15 was the superior sub. Not only does it go lower (in Hz), but it's response curve is smoother too. The newer, more powerful, sub has a bump at around 30 Hz.

[Barnum]

Originally Posted by cpgator

I realize the need for a good sub, I am just questioning the 10hz claim. A just because a sub can go down to 10 or 12 hz does not mean it can't be felt, especially heard.

That sub can easily do 12 hz so 10 is possible but with a extreme amount of drop off. The site has a chart of the frequecny range of their subs and 10 is there but at a huge rolloff from the 12 hz. If only I could find it again.

[cpgator]

Originally Posted by Barnum

That sub can easily do 12 hz so 10 is possible but with a extreme amount of drop off. The site has a chart of the frequecny range of their subs and 10 is there but at a huge rolloff from the 12 hz. If only I could find it again.

Here is my point - just having a sub that can produce 10 or 12 hz is not important (to me). Obviously no one can hear sounds that low, only feel it. However, to feel it, it needs to hit that range with enough authority (SPL) for those sound waves to be felt.

Also, since most movies and music don't contain notes that low, I am not sure of the point.

The most important info on a sub to me is how well it produces the range found in most soundtracks (probably 20 - 40 hz). I want a sub that produces these frequencies with power and low distortion. If a sub that can do this can also hit 10hz, then that is a bonus. I just see many people concentrating too much on just how low a sub can go, and not apparently caring about the rest.

I have two subs in my theater - Paradigm Servo 15 and a Seismic 12. I have no idea exactly how low they can go, but I do know they sound amazing when watching movies or listening to music - and that is what is important to me. I am sure there are subs out there that can go lower, but that doesn't mean they are better subs (though they certainly could be).