My First Separate - My impressions

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by SRTCraig

I think this is one of the qualities that people overlook the most. The more i think about it (yeah i think to much) the main difference is from running my subs from an amp. I could listen to music so low that the subs plate amps (set to auto), would not even turn on.

I'd love to hear an emo, would be very interesting indeed...

I see this all the time when its at low volume in the evenings , I'll walk by the sub (on auto) & its not even on .

[SRTCraig]

Originally Posted by crazyBLUE

I see this all the time when its at low volume in the evenings , I'll walk by the sub (on auto) & its not even on .

I played around a little with the levels and swapping from music mode to HT mode. They would switch on at a lower volume when the bass level was flat just not at the music level (-15db).

Had you listened to many other separate amps before getting the emo?

There was two reasons i never chose to import an Emotiva

* I couldn't find the specs i wanted
* Cinepro years ago brought some of the speakers i had and made a 14ch amp and marketed the system as the predator/seismic package.

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by SRTCraig

I played around a little with the levels and swapping from music mode to HT mode. They would switch on at a lower volume when the bass level was flat just not at the music level (-15db).

Had you listened to many other separate amps before getting the emo?

There was two reasons i never chose to import an Emotiva

* I couldn't find the specs i wanted
* Cinepro years ago brought some of the speakers i had and made a 14ch amp and marketed the system as the predator/seismic package.

EMO is my first ! I am sure sometime in the last 47 years I have heard a different amp If given the chance to hear other brands I'd jump all over it !! I'd love to have the chance to DEMO many different amps on my system , That would be cool !!

[Happycamper]

I listened to many Parasound sytems and some others but once I saw the total cost of ownership I was outta there. EMO amps and gear is more in line with my budget and really don't see why some others cost so much. I have been very if not extremly happy with the performcane and sound of my EMOTIVA UPA-7. I have always wanted seperates and now I can have high quality amps without breaking the bank. If something sounds better I doubt it would be enough to justify the huge price difference. Anyways I have another hobby that cost a lot per round that takes away from the audio budget.

[vega2K]

Here's a follow-up. Over the weekend I stumbles on to a small speaker repair shop on Chicago's North side. I asked if they carried any higher quality speakers like Paradigm or B&W but was told they did not. However, the owner asked me if I would be interested in listening to speakers he designs and builds himself called Van L speakers. I was skeptical but agreed. He explained that he had been in the business for 25+ years and that his speakers recently received positive reviews from an online audiophile site: http://www.stereotimes.com/speak042709.shtml.

I was very impressed with the relatively small speakers and how they sounded. I noticed that he had them hooked-up to tube amps and so I assumed that that was the reason why they sounded so good. I asked about this to the owner and explained that I recently purchased a 200watts x 5 Parasound amp. He was very familiar with Parasound and thought there should be little difference in the sound/performance quality if I were to hook the speakers up to my amp. He felt Parasound amps are exceptional. After letting me listen to different CDs, he suggested I take the speakers home for an at home trial - he explained that he believes in a trial period before marriage. So I was persuaded and really had nothing to loose. For me and my current budget, this may be the only time I could audition $3000+ speakers in my home.

I hooked-up the speakers and was ready to be underwhelmed. BUT, I heard the same sound from the store! I tried different CDs, Blu-rays, etc. The sound was fantastic. I tried 2 channel, 5.1, and 7.1. The sound was fantastic. Sound stage, clarity, imaging, all there! Never before had I been able to raise the volume to -12, -11, -10 and not hear distortion or strain.

If you read the review, you can see that the speakers are built with high end materials and I really think this is what made all the difference. From the review: "Parts quality used in the crossover and the drivers used here are also something usually reserved for speakers 3-4 times their cost". Also from the review: “It is a serious 1st order design with only 4 high-quality elements in the signal path. Parts include Alpha-Core inductors, Clarity capacitors and Caddock resistors, parts typically found in speakers selling for $15,000 and up. During assembly of the crossover, all contact points are first crimped, then soldered with WBT lead-free silver. All wiring is point-to-point (no circuit boards). All crossover elements are rubber mounted to isolate them from the cabinet for improved dynamics and clarity.” So.. these speakers are high-end.

The $3000+ is just too rich for my blood at the moment for speakers and I would need to purchase a third/center speaker. So I doubt I will be able to keep them, but they served the purpose I was after - Although going from a Reciever to a Separate did not make a huge difference, going to higher quality Speakers makes all the difference in the world! Needless to say, I will be saving my pennies for my next upgrade - Speakers!!!!

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by vega2K

Here's a follow-up. Over the weekend I stumbles on to a small speaker repair shop on Chicago's North side. I asked if they carried any higher quality speakers like Paradigm or B&W but was told they did not. However, the owner asked me if I would be interested in listening to speakers he designs and builds himself called Van L speakers. I was skeptical but agreed. He explained that he had been in the business for 25+ years and that his speakers recently received positive reviews from an online audiophile site: http://www.stereotimes.com/speak042709.shtml.

I was very impressed with the relatively small speakers and how they sounded. I noticed that he had them hooked-up to tube amps and so I assumed that that was the reason why they sounded so good. I asked about this to the owner and explained that I recently purchased a 200watts x 5 Parasound amp. He was very familiar with Parasound and thought there should be little difference in the sound/performance quality if I were to hook the speakers up to my amp. He felt Parasound amps are exceptional. After letting me listen to different CDs, he suggested I take the speakers home for an at home trial - he explained that he believes in a trial period before marriage. So I was persuaded and really had nothing to loose. For me and my current budget, this may be the only time I could audition $3000+ speakers in my home.

I hooked-up the speakers and was ready to be underwhelmed. BUT, I heard the same sound from the store! I tried different CDs, Blu-rays, etc. The sound was fantastic. I tried 2 channel, 5.1, and 7.1. The sound was fantastic. Sound stage, clarity, imaging, all there! Never before had I been able to raise the volume to -12, -11, -10 and not hear distortion or strain.

If you read the review, you can see that the speakers are built with high end materials and I really think this is what made all the difference. From the review: "Parts quality used in the crossover and the drivers used here are also something usually reserved for speakers 3-4 times their cost". Also from the review: “It is a serious 1st order design with only 4 high-quality elements in the signal path. Parts include Alpha-Core inductors, Clarity capacitors and Caddock resistors, parts typically found in speakers selling for $15,000 and up. During assembly of the crossover, all contact points are first crimped, then soldered with WBT lead-free silver. All wiring is point-to-point (no circuit boards). All crossover elements are rubber mounted to isolate them from the cabinet for improved dynamics and clarity.” So.. these speakers are high-end.

The $3000+ is just too rich for my blood at the moment for speakers and I would need to purchase a third/center speaker. So I doubt I will be able to keep them, but they served the purpose I was after - Although going from a Reciever to a Separate did not make a huge difference, going to higher quality Speakers makes all the difference in the world! Needless to say, I will be saving my pennies for my next upgrade - Speakers!!!!

The problem that many people do not understand is that to hear the difference between the receiver and the separate amp you need to have the speakers and other equipment that can support and allow the improvement to be heard. You demonstrated this to yourself. I would bet, if you used the receiver with the same speakers that you borrowed, they would not sound nearly as good as what you heard with your separate Parasound amp.

Rich

[richteer]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

The problem that many people do not understand is that to hear the difference between the receiver and the separate amp you need to have the speakers and other equipment that can support and allow the improvement to be heard. You demonstrated this to yourself. I would bet, if you used the receiver with the same speakers that you borrowed, they would not sound nearly as good as what you heard with your separate Parasound amp.

Rich

My namesake hit the nail on the head with this comment. With a revealing pair of speakers, the sound of different amps is (fairly often) very obvious.

[vega2K]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

The problem that many people do not understand is that to hear the difference between the receiver and the separate amp you need to have the speakers and other equipment that can support and allow the improvement to be heard. You demonstrated this to yourself. I would bet, if you used the receiver with the same speakers that you borrowed, they would not sound nearly as good as what you heard with your separate Parasound amp.

Rich

My little adventure that I described certainly proved to me that if I want a truly noticeable improvement, I need to save the money and buy higher end speakers. I tend to agree with you that if I hooked-up the borrowed high-end speakers to my receiver, I would notice a degradation in sound versus with an amp. Using only the Reciever with the borrowed speakers, I just cannot see raising the volume to -10Db without noticeable loss in sound quality. With the amp, at -10Db I could not believe the sound - not just louder but better.

[TOP_GUN]

which one is better tubes or sold state amp I'm about 75% ht and 25% music so which way should I go

[cembros]

Originally Posted by TOP_GUN

which one is better tubes or sold state amp I'm about 75% ht and 25% music so which way should I go

oh that is an age old debate, dont expect to find a definitive answer there. Only way to know there is hear it for your self and let your ears judge

[cembros]

in the case of my polk lsi speakers i noticed a big improvment because the speakers a extremely power hungry with a 4ohm impidence. No receiver can truly handle these speakers.

[Opips2]

Originally Posted by cembros

in the case of my polk lsi speakers i noticed a big improvment because the speakers a extremely power hungry with a 4ohm impidence. No receiver can truly handle these speakers.

In fact. a loudspeaker is 4 ohms impedance. It can't handle these receiver will very overheat as like as snowman melt!!

more effect sound on 4 ohms impedance about 15% and amplifier is 50% in headroom. that's enough big louder.

you will become deafness!

[cembros]

Originally Posted by Opips2

In fact. a loudspeaker is 4 ohms impedance. It can't handle these receiver will very overheat as like as snowman melt!!

more effect sound on 4 ohms impedance about 15% and amplifier is 50% in headroom. that's enough big louder.

you will become deafness!

lol man i can never understand ur posts not really sure what u were saying there but i always enjor trying to decipher them

[richteer]

Originally Posted by TOP_GUN

which one is better tubes or sold state amp I'm about 75% ht and 25% music so which way should I go

I prefer tubes, but that isn't to say that there aren't any good SS amps out there, because there's loads of them. As always, the only correct answer is to listen for yourself (preferably in your own system) and decide.

[vega2K]

Originally Posted by cembros

in the case of my polk lsi speakers i noticed a big improvment because the speakers a extremely power hungry with a 4ohm impidence. No receiver can truly handle these speakers.

Now that is an awesome point that I didn't even consider before, which allows me a bit more flexibility:

(1) My Parasound 5 channel Amp can dip to 2ohms and can support sustained 4ohm loads. I have 8ohm speakers, so as I research speaker upgrades, I can shop for as low as 4ohm speakers too. I don't think my receiver would be able to handle this.

(2) I would be able to bi-amp (? not sure if this is the right term) my 8ohm speakers by connecting two separate channels from my amp to the two separate pairs of binding posts on each speaker. Wouldn't I be cutting the 8ohms more or less in half (or 4ohms, which is supported by the amp)? I could then increase the watts from 220pc to 300pc (per amp specs) for my Left and Right:

Amp:
Channel 1 & 2 driving Left speaker
Channel 3 & 4 driving Right speaker
Channel 5 driving Center speaker

Maybe I'm overlooking something but nonetheless, you get a !

[richteer]

Originally Posted by vega2K

(2) I would be able to bi-amp (? not sure if this is the right term) my 8ohm speakers by connecting two separate channels from my amp to the two separate pairs of binding posts on each speaker.

Yes, bi-amping is the correct term.

Wouldn't I be cutting the 8ohms more or less in half (or 4ohms, which is supported by the amp)? I could then increase the watts from 220pc to 300pc (per amp specs) for my Left and Right:

The answer to the first question is "it depends, but probably not". As for the second part, like many people you seem to be misunderstanding power ratings.

You're not increasing the watts at all. The amplifier power supplies power at a varying voltage and has a maximum current capability. Power (watts) = volts x current, and the current requirements double if you halve the impedence (which is why an amp doubling its output when going from an 8 Ohm load to a 4 Ohm one is a sign of a good power supply).

All that said, there's no reason not to try bi-amping your speakers. The cost will only be an extra run of speaker cable. :-)

[rded]

Originally Posted by richteer

I prefer tubes, but that isn't to say that there aren't any good SS amps out there, because there's loads of them. As always, the only correct answer is to listen for yourself (preferably in your own system) and decide.

Coz you're an old school audiophile that's why But for people who do 50-50 HT and music solid state amps might be better because 5-7 channel tubes can get very expensive. Gremal can attest to 5 channel integ tube amps- not that solid states are cheap because they get up there in price too.

[rded]

Originally Posted by cembros

in the case of my polk lsi speakers i noticed a big improvment because the speakers a extremely power hungry with a 4ohm impidence. No receiver can truly handle these speakers.

I beg to differ regarding receivers! If ever youre in Chicago I'll let you heam my set up. OTOH, I've heard integrated amps at 50 and 75 watts/ channel blow away Simaudio amps Power ratings go out the window in the real world my friend. I'd rather get a receiver or integrated amp with a high(clean)-current design my friend.

[mdabb]

I would personally only use tube amps for music duty since there can be a small hint of distortion at times and a potential for midrange bloom. Certain tubes can also be microphonic and I can see that as being distracting while watching movies. Your wallet will also be hurting if buying multiple NOS and/or older tubes for multiple amps. Yes you can buy newly produced tubes, but they don't make them like they used to. Besides where's the fun in that All the good sounding tubes are usually older ones and they can be expensive, ranging from just a few dollars up-wards of a thousand dollars a piece or more. I would be embarrassed to admit how much money I spend on tubes, but rare tubes hold their value and actually increase in value, sometimes rapidly. Plus there are only so many great tubes left in the wild

......... but who knows though ??? where there's a will, there's a way !!! Can't knock anything until you try it.

[mdabb]

Originally Posted by TOP_GUN

which one is better tubes or sold state amp I'm about 75% ht and 25% music so which way should I go

In your case, solid state