My First Separate - My impressions

[vega2K]

Background/Set-up:
I hooked up my newly delivered Parasound HCA 2205AT (220watts x 5 channel) Amp. This is my first attempt at the separate amp world. First, just a little background: I consider myself to be a "layman" but knowledgeable when it comes to HT Audio/Video, etc. - I probably know a little more then the next guy mainly because of these forums. My receiver is a Pioneer Elite 94TXH (140watts x 5 channels) driving a 7.1 (actually a 7.2) system. My speakers are KEF's (iQ series) for the front and Infinity's for my rears. I have two powered Subwoofers. My Music/movie source is a PS3. You can check my gallery for more details.

The Parasound amp is working fine, it is about 5 to 7 years old and is in good condition. I chose it because of the price and the reviews I read. It drives my Front (L/R/C) and my Rear (L/R). The receiver drives the Rear Surrounds.

Based on all the comments about going from non-separates to separates, I expected an obvious and immediate difference. But I have to say that I have not seen it yet. I am not sure what I was expecting, but I did expect a huge difference. Yes the volume can be raised higher and the speakers can sound louder, but it is hard for me to tell a huge difference. Better imaging? More clarity? I don't know if I hear more of this, especially since my system was awesome in these respect to begin with.

Conclusions/questions so far:
1. Could it be that my Pioneer Elite receiver is just that good, that it gives similar results as a separate Amp (aside from volume) in terms of imaging, clarity, etc.? I really think this is a possibility.
2. Could the Parasound amp just not be as good as other amps? I know there are better amps but at the price point I paid, I doubt this, especially since it received excellent reviews.
3. Could it be that the 5 to 7 year old Parasound is just not up to date and is too old to compete with today's recievers (at least with Pioneer Elite)? I doubt this as well since not too much has changed in this time frame.
4. Could it be that I am just not sensitive enough or have the listening skills that could differentiate the before and after? Now this is a possibility, but I am not that old and I have noticed such differences at HT and A/V stores such as ABT.
5. Maybe I need to run MCACC again with the amp. I will do that but doubt it will make a huge difference.
6. Maybe my speakers are not the best to be used with a separate amp? Maybe they are efficient enough so that there isn't much of a difference?
7. I paid about $700 for the amp, could I have been better off applying that towards better speakers?
8. Did I miss anything?

Bottomline:
My set-up with the new separate amp sounds awesome both for movies and music, but it sounds about as awesome as when I didn't have it. Maybe as time goes by, I will notice more differences, but for now I am happy but not as impressed with my separate as I thought I would be. I like to call it as I see it and this is how I see it so far. Any comments would be welcomed!

[aramis109]

For someone that's been teetering on the razor's edge of buying a separate amp now for a month, this discussion is very welcomed. I'm interested in seeing what others say, and at the very least I appreciate you posting this, though being out $700 and not being happy certainly sucks.

On the plus side, should you decide to sell it, you should get most if not all your money back if you go through Audiogon I would think.

[kpkelley]

The Elite's are some nice receivers with some very good amp sections particularly for home theatre, but they are believed to be a litting wanting when it comes to music.

Have you had a chance to listen to music now that you've moved to a seperate amp?

Also, a calibration might help, you never know. Have you thought about moving your front left and right out a litte, that front left speaker looks cramped in that corner, particularly when the right speaker doesn't have a side wall next it. Speaker placement can be a very difficult thing to manuever.

Best of luck in your search to optomize your set-up.

[vega2K]

Originally Posted by aramis109

For someone that's been teetering on the razor's edge of buying a separate amp now for a month, this discussion is very welcomed. I'm interested in seeing what others say, and at the very least I appreciate you posting this, though being out $700 and not being happy certainly sucks.

On the plus side, should you decide to sell it, you should get most if not all your money back if you go through Audiogon I would think.

Thanks for the feedback. I teetered too and finally pulled the trigger. I AM happy with the outcome, it's just that I expected a much bigger difference. I mean, how many threads and comments from so many members have always stated that "Oh man what a difference" or "Night and Day", etc. So I expected to feel the same way, but honestly the difference is just very subtle and is not obvious. I tend to think that people re-enforce their purchases by stating more than they really believe or in this case hear more than they really hear. I try to be as objective as possible and if I made a sh!tty purchase or decision, then I am the first to admit it. In this case it is not a Sh!tty purchase or poor decision, but it is not the mind-blowing life changing experience that others have apparantly gone through.

Maybe if I would have had a different receiver the outcome would have been different, I don't know. I agree that the $700 is recoverable and for an amp that at one point retailed for almost $2000, it is not too bad. I am going to keep it and as I said hope/expect to all of a sudden say "Hey I didn't hear that before" or "Now I understand". I would also be very curious to try out a different amp just to see, but I do not have the money or the time. I am also very interested to hear other's comments but I would ask that they dig deep and be honest with their assessment.

[vega2K]

Originally Posted by kpkelley

The Elite's are some nice receivers with some very good amp sections particularly for home theatre, but they are believed to be a litting wanting when it comes to music.

Have you had a chance to listen to music now that you've moved to a seperate amp?

Also, a calibration might help, you never know. Have you thought about moving your front left and right out a litte, that front left speaker looks cramped in that corner, particularly when the right speaker doesn't have a side wall next it. Speaker placement can be a very difficult thing to manuever.

Best of luck in your search to optomize your set-up.

Thanks for the comments. My conclusions were based on watching/hearing Nine Inch Nails and John Mayer on Blu-ray and listening to various CDs. I am very familar with these two Blu's. I also watched Dark Knight, The Day the earth Stood Still, and a few other movies.

I have thought about increasing the space between my fronts, but the problem is that my right speaker would be in the middle of the floor and with kids, this is not an option. But aside from this - remember that I have always been very happy with the AQ of my set-up, pre and post amp. The issue is that I do not detect much of a difference - it's still awesome, it's just not more awesome Thanks again.

[JJ]

Great feedback, Vega. ::reads a bit more into it::

[naturephoto1]

Several things to consider: 1) listen to well recognized music rather than movies. 2) Home Theater amps are not normally as good as amps that are designed for 2 channel sound and listening to music. 3) is the rest of your system up to the new component amp? When listening to the music, listen for such things as clarity of the sound, imaging, soundstage, focus, dynamics, and bass response.

Rich

[vega2K]

Originally Posted by JJxiv1215

Great feedback, Vega. ::reads a bit more into it::

I learned from the best

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by vega2K

Thanks for the feedback. I teetered too and finally pulled the trigger. I AM happy with the outcome, it's just that I expected a much bigger difference. I mean, how many threads and comments from so many members have always stated that "Oh man what a difference" or "Night and Day", etc. So I expected to feel the same way, but honestly the difference is just very subtle and is not obvious. I tend to think that people re-enforce their purchases by stating more than they really believe or in this case hear more than they really hear. I try to be as objective as possible and if I made a sh!tty purchase or decision, then I am the first to admit it. In this case it is not a Sh!tty purchase or poor decision, but it is not the mind-blowing life changing experience that others have apparantly gone through.

Maybe if I would have had a different receiver the outcome would have been different, I don't know. I agree that the $700 is recoverable and for an amp that at one point retailed for almost $2000, it is not too bad. I am going to keep it and as I said hope/expect to all of a sudden say "Hey I didn't hear that before" or "Now I understand". I would also be very curious to try out a different amp just to see, but I do not have the money or the time. I am also very interested to hear other's comments but I would ask that they dig deep and be honest with their assessment.

I agree with your assessment re: people's reviews of their own purchases. I think that it happens quite a bit around here. Some of it I'm sure is just human nature. My buddy laughed at me today and said, "You know, every day you stand there and tell me how 'this movie or that' sounded amazing. What do you really think you're going to get out of another $600?"

I answered, "There's always room for more betterer!" But... he's got a point. You have to be really careful when there's not an objective measuring stick to hold up. I'm still pondering an external amplifier, but if there's not a large jump for my financial investment, in my mind it's not worth it. I'd be better off upgrading speakers again (which I'm not prepared to do).

[Drew664]

I'm glad you posted this as well.

Another thing people may be overplaying is the timbre matching of the fronts. I bought a pair of towers that don't timbre match my center, and I have yet to notice anything 'off' or 'wrong' when the sound moves across the screen. This is not to say that it wouldn't be more noticeable with better components or the matching center itself (I've got no doubt the sound will be improved - but solely due to the fact that the speaker would be a better build).

I'm not going to pull the trigger anytime in the near future on separates, but hearing both the pros and the cons of hands on reviews is all part of being a smart consumer. Thanks for sharing.

[vega2K]

Originally Posted by aramis109

You have to be really careful when there's not an objective measuring stick to hold up.

That right there is the biggest hurdle! Unfortunately the objective measuring stick is you and your eyes and ears! But apart from trying out every speaker, every amp, every projector - for yourself, there is no way to apply that measuring stick.

I have no doubt that those that say their sound improved by leaps and bounds because of a new cable or because their speakers are toed-in a half an inch more or because they changed amps, really did experience that, but I also believe that not everyone will.

[vega2K]

Originally Posted by Drew664

I'm glad you posted this as well.

Another thing people may be overplaying is the timbre matching of the fronts. I bought a pair of towers that don't timbre match my center, and I have yet to notice anything 'off' or 'wrong' when the sound moves across the screen. This is not to say that it wouldn't be more noticeable with better components or the matching center itself (I've got no doubt the sound will be improved - but solely due to the fact that the speaker would be a better build).

I'm not going to pull the trigger anytime in the near future on separates, but hearing both the pros and the cons of hands on reviews is all part of being a smart consumer. Thanks for sharing.

I know what you mean. I am now convinced that maybe I was born without a gene that can detect certain things that others seem to detect so easily when it comes to audio and video.

I believe that I have simply come to a point where any realistic improvement on my set-up (aside from $10K+ speakers or $10K amps) simply will not be that noticeable. One of my role models on this forum - Big Daddy - in one of his posts mentions reaching "diminishing returns", I think I may be there.

P.S. - I still think paying $2000 for Speaker Cables is just not right and is down right hilarious!!! http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc....00289&auc&3&4&

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by Drew664

I'm glad you posted this as well.

Another thing people may be overplaying is the timbre matching of the fronts. I bought a pair of towers that don't timbre match my center, and I have yet to notice anything 'off' or 'wrong' when the sound moves across the screen. This is not to say that it wouldn't be more noticeable with better components or the matching center itself (I've got no doubt the sound will be improved - but solely due to the fact that the speaker would be a better build).

I'm not going to pull the trigger anytime in the near future on separates, but hearing both the pros and the cons of hands on reviews is all part of being a smart consumer. Thanks for sharing.

Well, it depends. When I was upgrading from my Polks to my Def Techs, I still had the center for a bit. It REALLY sounded off from the rest of the system. I will say that same line is the EASIEST way to timbre-match though.

Originally Posted by vega2K

That right there is the biggest hurdle! Unfortunately the objective measuring stick is you and your eyes and ears! But apart from trying out every speaker, every amp, every projector - for yourself, there is no way to apply that measuring stick.

I have no doubt that those that say their sound improved by leaps and bounds because of a new cable or because their speakers are toed-in a half an inch more or because they changed amps, really did experience that, but I also believe that not everyone will.

It's funny- I just removed my toe-in and the soundstage opened up a bit for me. I was surprised at the difference. Yet... I still question amps because, well... I haven't experienced it for myself yet. I need to find some way to demo.

[Fors*]

This thread just hit me over the head with a lot of really good objective reasoning. I have to say that I am just like you were OP say a few months ago when you were looking into having seperates. I have even started a couple of threads in the last couple of days asking about purchasing better receivers to be used as a pre/pro, so I could follow that with an external amp. Maybe this is all folly? I am starting to think that I really do need a better receiver, but then follow that purchase with better speakers and sub. I know I would not want to go thru the hassle of re-selling an amp that I just bought for $700, regardless of the deal I had gotten.

As far as the diminishing returns comment, I am beginning to think that this has a lot more validity to it than I first assumed. I kinda feel like a small lightbulb went off somewhere in my big empy head.

I too want to hear what other highly regarded members have to say about this subject....

[vega2K]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Several things to consider: 1) listen to well recognized music rather than movies. 2) Home Theater amps are not normally as good as amps that are designed for 2 channel sound and listening to music. 3) is the rest of your system up to the new component amp? When listening to the music, listen for such things as clarity of the sound, imaging, soundstage, focus, dynamics, and bass response.

Rich

Thank you for the feedback, I must have missed your post.
(1) I am still evaluating and will take your advice on listening to recognized music.
(2)&(3) I guess I kind of knew or expected that there was a difference with 2 channel amps mainly due to the price difference. Also, as I said in one of my posts, I definitely have heard a difference when I have listened to set-ups at the A/V stores (ABT in my case). However, we are talking about a $14K amp and $28K KEF Reference speakers! There better be a difference! In my set-up, I would assume that upgrading my speakers would make a difference - so there is room for improvement there. But again, with better speakers, should I expect more of a difference with and without an amp?

In terms of clarity of the sound, imaging, soundstage, focus, dynamics, and bass response - this is where I am looking to see an improvement and I will continue to look for it. Thanks again.

[DonRSD]

Originally Posted by vega2K

Thank you for the feedback, I must have missed your post.
(1) I am still evaluating and will take your advice on listening to recognized music.
(2)&(3) I guess I kind of knew or expected that there was a difference with 2 channel amps mainly due to the price difference. Also, as I said in one of my posts, I definitely have heard a difference when I have listened to set-ups at the A/V stores (ABT in my case). However, we are talking about a $14K amp and $28K KEF Reference speakers! There better be a difference! In my set-up, I would assume that upgrading my speakers would make a difference - so there is room for improvement there. But again, with better speakers, should I expect more of a difference with and without an amp?

In terms of clarity of the sound, imaging, soundstage, focus, dynamics, and bass response - this is where I am looking to see an improvement and I will continue to look for it. Thanks again.

if you havent heard the difference yet, you probaly wont hear the difference

there comes a point that unless you move into the 10k+ range....whetever you get/add to your system wont make that big of a difference.

keep us updated though.....maybe you need to tweak or check the connections/receiver settings

[vega2K]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

This thread just hit me over the head with a lot of really good objective reasoning. I have to say that I am just like you were OP say a few months ago when you were looking into having seperates. I have even started a couple of threads in the last couple of days asking about purchasing better receivers to be used as a pre/pro, so I could follow that with an external amp. Maybe this is all folly? I am starting to think that I really do need a better receiver, but then follow that purchase with better speakers and sub. I know I would not want to go thru the hassle of re-selling an amp that I just bought for $700, regardless of the deal I had gotten.

As far as the diminishing returns comment, I am beginning to think that this has a lot more validity to it than I first assumed. I kinda feel like a small lightbulb went off somewhere in my big empy head.

I too want to hear what other highly members have to say about this subject....

You know what would be interesting to see is if I were to swap out my Pioneer Elite Receiver and instead use a middle of the road with pre-outs and then hook it up to the amp. Would I notice a difference? If the set-up remains just as awesome, then that would mean the amp is an improvement and it is doing it's job. On the other hand, if the sound is degraded, then the receiver is what made the difference.

So far, I do have to say that the one thing in my set-up which has made the most noticeable improvement has been the subwoofer upgrade (about $100 in cost) and then adding a second subwoofer (about $200 in cost). My plan is now to save-up my money and upgrade my speakers.

[vega2K]

Originally Posted by DonRSD

if you havent heard the difference yet, you probaly wont hear the difference

there comes a point that unless you move into the 10k+ range....whetever you get/add to your system wont make that big of a difference.

keep us updated though.....maybe you need to tweak or check the connections/receiver settings

[jdc115]

Originally Posted by vega2K

You know what would be interesting to see is if I were to swap out my Pioneer Elite Receiver and instead use a middle of the road with pre-outs and then hook it up to the amp. Would I notice a difference? If the set-up remains just as awesome, then that would mean the amp is an improvement and it is doing it's job. On the other hand, if the sound is degraded, then the receiver is what made the difference.

So far, I do have to say that the one thing in my set-up which has made the most noticeable improvement has been the subwoofer upgrade (about $100 in cost) and then adding a second subwoofer (about $200 in cost). My plan is now to save-up my money and upgrade my speakers.

I don't think you should find that big a difference in amps and the age most likely is not going to make a big difference. Running under normal limits, amps probably are going to have very subtle differences. Perhaps what is night and day to some is really very subtle just any improvement is worth the investment to some.

Probably the best area to invest in in speakers and the room if you are looking for dramatic improvements. Though, I do like Parasound, I think they make some good amps and John Curl does have a good rep as a designer who does a lot of the Parasound amps. I do have a 2 channel Parasound myself but not really being put to use at the moment

[JasonR]

I would be interested in the results of an A/B comparison with one speaker hooked up amp level and the other hooked up receiver level. Remember, human audio memory sucks.

Edit: ^^^Yes, speakers make the most dramatic improvement on any setup.