If you buy a Blu ray player in 2011 you better have an HDMI capable TV

[blacklion]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

home owners should not be allowed to close windows and lock doors. Criminals can just brake them open so they don't realy stop them. All they do is inconvenience the honest guest/curious person who might want to go in while waiting for you to come back.


Charity begins at home.

OK, one more time -

How exactly do torrenters and bootleggers get their hands on a movie weeks or months ahead of its release to theaters or on BD/DVD to the general public?

How exactly will disabling component output on BD players prevent this from happening?

[Rob71]

Originally Posted by blacklion

Cuss me out, rant and rave all you please but you still have not addressed this point.

Torrents and bootleg copies of new movies are widely available weeks or even months before the theatrical or disc release of the said movies.

How did that happen? Pirates

Who did it? Pirates

Joe Sixpack with component outputs on his BD player? Straw man

Joe Sixpack ripped and torrented a movie that he cannot even buy at BB or Walmart for all the tea in China because (duh!) its not even on the shelves yet? See above

Joe Sixpack camcorded a movie that he cannot get to watch in any movie theater anywhere on this planet because (duh!) its not yet on theatrical release? Still more ridiculous assumptions. if a Joe Sixpack downloads said file he is a pirate. Very simple concept.

OK, maybe its the newspaper film critics or the pre-release test audiences who camcorded the movie at pre-release test screenings? More ridiculous straw man arguments. Doesn't change the fact that the file being present online gives anyone the right to it.

But we're not talking about camcorder copies but near perfect rips including DD and DTS soundtracks, subtitles, extra features etc;

Maybe its the geeks at Mediatek or ABT when they were coding FW to ensure player compatibility with DRM on the disc of the new movie?

Maybe its....???

So - just how exactly do the torrenters and bootleggers get their hands on a movie that has not even been released in theaters or on BD or DVD to the general public? They have broken an agreement and are pirating it. Just like the person who downloads it.



Hint - the primary source of stolen copyrighted material is the dishonest employees of the studios who steal and rip master copies and upload to the torrent sites or ship the discs to China where bootleg copies are made. And the primary recipient is a fool looking for something free. A pirate. And one who should be punished.

ICT and other forms of DRM and disabling component output on BD players or forcing CEs to remove component outputs on new players will not stop Hollywood employees from stealing pre-release master copies and selling them to torrenters and bootleggers. Straw man again. You really seem to love them. WHO CARES! Don't buy one of the new players, and don't buy the software, you are in control.

Whatever decisions are made by US judicial and regulatory bodies will not be enforced by the Chinese authorities and cannot stop torrenters operating in Eastern Europe; at least that has been the experience so far. Better to address the problem at the source in Hollywood than hiring top dollar lawyers and lobbyists in DC. Better to punish the "bootleggers" and the people who frequent the sites that provide them their "opportunity".

Rather than crippling component output on Joe Sixpack's bought and paid for equipment and making movie watching a hassle for him with DRM, the studios need to start looking in-house for their disgruntled employees out to make a quick buck or else they'll keep bleeding to death inexorably. No amount of DRM will stop a disgruntled employee. Or go after the pirates. I would not be opposed to "floating" virus laded movie files on torrent sites. It would be quite humorous actually.

Charity begins at home.

Since when is Hollywood or the CE industry a charity?

[Terjyn]

Originally Posted by blacklion

Hollywood PR shills

Translation of "Hollywood PR shill": Non-pirate.

We get it, you like to steal movies.

Ranting and raving about why it's ok doesn't change the fact that you are stealing movies.

[Rob71]

Originally Posted by Terjyn

Translation of "Hollywood PR shill": Non-pirate.

We get it, you like to steal movies.

Ranting and raving about why it's ok doesn't change the fact that you are stealing movies.

Stop!

Stop!!

Stop!!!

You are making too much sense!

[blacklion]

LOL! You guys dream of straw men and pirates in 3D as well?

So now we are agreed that the major source of movie piracy is pirates and their confederates getting hold of pre-release movies long before theatrical or BD/DVD release to the general public, can you now address my second point?

How exactly will crippling component video outputs on BD players stop these pirates from geting hold of and torrenting/bootlegging copyright material?

The larger point is that Hollywood needs to get over its delusion that there is a technological fix to piracy. Its need to devise a new business model (as the music industry is being forced to) and focus on strenghtening internal security. These are far more forward looking strategies than trying to shut the stable doors after the horse has bolted. The pirates don't need analog outputs to bootleg/torrent movies. They have high-end computers and ripping software. Its only Joe Sixpact who suffers.

Its the legitimate end-user with the analog only TV and AVR who suffers. The people who make bootleg discs or rip torrents and the people who buy bootleg discs or download torrents do not suffer any inconvenience at all.

Torrent sites are already notoriously laden with viruses especially phishing bots. The kids who are really into torrenting music and movie files know from their peer networks which sites are known to be relatively virus free. I've also heard that Hollydoom and their music industry buddies have long since attempted 'floating' virused files and tracking software but to little avail.

[Rob71]

Originally Posted by blacklion

LOL! You guys dream of straw men and pirates in 3D as well?

So now we are agreed that the major source of movie piracy is pirates and their confederates getting hold of pre-release movies long before theatrical or BD/DVD release to the general public, can you now address my second point?

How exactly will crippling component video outputs on BD players stop these pirates from geting hold of and torrenting/bootlegging copyright material?

The larger point is that Hollywood needs to get over its delusion that there is a technological fix to piracy. Its need to devise a new business model (as the music industry is being forced to) and focus on strenghtening internal security. These are far more forward looking strategies than trying to shut the stable doors after the horse has bolted. The pirates don't need analog outputs to bootleg/torrent movies. They have high-end computers and ripping software. Its only Joe Sixpact who suffers.

Its the legitimate end-user with the analog only TV and AVR who suffers. The people who make bootleg discs or rip torrents and the people who buy bootleg discs or download torrents do not suffer any inconvenience at all.

Torrent sites are already notoriously laden with viruses especially phishing bots. The kids who are really into torrenting music and movie files know from their peer networks which sites are known to be relatively virus free. I've also heard that Hollydoom and their music industry buddies have long since attempted 'floating' virused files and tracking software but to little avail.

The only thing you and I seem to agree on is that the original uplnloader of said files are just as big a POS as the person who downloads them. I have not seen or heard anything credible yet as to how this supposed changeover will effect anyone other than a handfull of people with 4 or 5 year old TV's. Which probably will or have been updated anyway. Your innability to link to any upheaval by any site that doesn't lean towards being torrent friendly proves that this is a non issue. But by all means, continue your railings against the evil, greedy studios. I'm sure a torrent junkie somewhere is hanging on your every word. And linking it to their blog.

[blacklion]

Rob,

Regardless of my personal views about Hollywood and its business practices, as a former part-time business owner, I agree that an employee who steals material or products from the employer is a POS. I also have no questions about the legality of the actions of the employees who supplies the material or the bootlegger or torrenter who makes the bootleg discs or uploads the stolen material on the internet.

My concern as a consumer is that Hollywood keeps focussing its IP protection measures at the wrong end of the chain - they are essentially targetting the end user whereas they are actually dealing with organized transnational criminal networks. Its not Joe Sixpack or his kid copying discs from analog outputs to a drive that they need to worry about. Its the bootleggers in Shanghai and their confederates in LA that are the real problem. The studios are simply going after the soft target while ignoring their own in-house security problem and the global criminal networks.

They want to cripple analog outputs yet the people who are actually stealing and distributing the material don't even bother with copying from analog outputs. They use computers and ripping software. So does it make any sense to disable analog outputs on BD players when the organized pirate networks have long since advanced beyond that?

Honestly?

The studios have a right to protect their IP but not at expense of the consumer. Much as I detest it, I could (with much grinding and gnashing of my teeth) even abide with component outputs being eliminated from newer BD players. Heck, I have 5 BD players with HDMI and component outputs so I should be fine for another 10 years. But its the SOC and ICT that really gets my goat. The studios are not satisfied with eliminating component outputs from future BD players, now they want to have the option to cripple features on existing players. The FW update on the PS3 which eliminated the Linux OS option is a warning for the future.

Even if its just 300 people still using component outputs in all of North America, those 300 folks have the right not be forced to buy new HDMI-capable equipment when they have HT equipment that is still in perfect working order. Not just because studios are scared they might copy discs.

Hollywood is in dire need of creative thinking. But it is run by lemmings who've learnt nothing from the current travails of the music industry.

[Bishop_99]

Good point blacklion because down converting Blu-ray to 480i through component does nothing to stop the movies from being digitally copied. As soon as these movies go out to the replication factories that will later be shipped out to the stores, the employees steal a copy and then it's all over. They do this digitally, they have no need to record it in real time, so this doesn't affect them.

Had this been back in 2005 there would have been a lot of backlash from the public because the majority didn't have HDMI inputs, now since they do it isn't an issue. It's only an issue when it affects you.

[Rob71]

Originally Posted by blacklion

Rob,

Regardless of my personal views about Hollywood and its business practices, as a former part-time business owner, I agree that an employee who steals material or products from the employer is a POS. I also have no questions about the legality of the actions of the employees who supplies the material or the bootlegger or torrenter who makes the bootleg discs or uploads the stolen material on the internet.

My concern as a consumer is that Hollywood keeps focussing its IP protection measures at the wrong end of the chain - they are essentially targetting the end user whereas they are actually dealing with organized transnational criminal networks. Its not Joe Sixpack or his kid copying discs from analog outputs to a drive that they need to worry about. Its the bootleggers in Shanghai and their confederates in LA that are the real problem. The studios are simply going after the soft target while ignoring their own in-house security problem and the global criminal networks.

They want to cripple analog outputs yet the people who are actually stealing and distributing the material don't even bother with copying from analog outputs. They use computers and ripping software. So does it make any sense to disable analog outputs on BD players when the organized pirate networks have long since advanced beyond that?

Honestly?

The studios have a right to protect their IP but not at expense of the consumer. Much as I detest it, I could (with much grinding and gnashing of my teeth) even abide with component outputs being eliminated from newer BD players. Heck, I have 5 BD players with HDMI and component outputs so I should be fine for another 10 years. But its the SOC and ICT that really gets my goat. The studios are not satisfied with eliminating component outputs from future BD players, now they want to have the option to cripple features on existing players. The FW update on the PS3 which eliminated the Linux OS option is a warning for the future.

Even if its just 300 people still using component outputs in all of North America, those 300 folks have the right not be forced to buy new HDMI-capable equipment when they have HT equipment that is still in perfect working order. Not just because studios are scared they might copy discs.

Hollywood is in dire need of creative thinking. But it is run by lemmings who've learnt nothing from the current travails of the music industry.

My simple view on the subject, and this comes from running my own business, is they have every right to aggressively defend their property. If a person is stealing, they are stealing. Doesn't matter if it's an assistant stealing masters or a kid in his parents basement stealing films of the net. i favor the old ways when dealing with piracy. Scorched earth. You give them both barrels and don't differentiate between the "levels" of their criminality. Wipe them all out. If a kid is stealing, figure the amount and go after the parents home, maybe they'll take their responsibility as a parent seriously if it costs them a little bit. If an assistant at a studio is found to be uploading films, fire them, blacklist them, and make it impossible for them to work in the industry again. And go after damages in court. No settlements promising never to do it again, teach them why they should never do it again. Spending the next decade paying for their theft is the best way to make them realize they are wrong. And as far as the Chinese angle, I would have no problem isolating the whole damn country until some meaningful reforms take place. And I'm talking about human rights reforms along with economic ones. I would gladly pay more for my electronics and clothes if it meant a level playing field. But Hollywood's hands are tied as long as the world governments continue to wink and nod in the interest of cheap goods.

[blacklion]

Well,my simple view is - by all mean aggressively defend your property rights as you please but just don't mess with my property.

When you seek to disable features on a machine that I bought and paid for with my hard earned money, you are unlawfully interfering with my property rights and wilfully impairing those property rights. At that point, I will defend my property rights by any means possible

BTW scorched earth did not win wars for the Nazis in Eastern Europe. Or the French in Algeria and Vietnam. It only got the Brits a phyrric victory in South Africa. The US military is more than capable of waging scorched earth warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are good reasons why US political and military leaders have decided that inflicting indiscriminate pain and severe suffering on civilian populations in those countries is not optimal in defeating terrorists. Those considerations are not entirely humanitarian.

[Dreemworx]

HDMI is the best way to watch 1080(p) BluRay.

And yes, 1080(i) is inferior to 1080(p) and can easily be seen as such.

[Rob71]

Originally Posted by blacklion

Well,my simple view is - by all mean aggressively defend your property rights as you please but just don't mess with my property.

When you seek to disable features on a machine that I bought and paid for with my hard earned money, you are unlawfully interfering with my property rights and wilfully impairing those property rights. At that point, I will defend my property rights by any means possible

BTW scorched earth did not win wars for the Nazis in Eastern Europe. Or the French in Algeria and Vietnam. It only got the Brits a phyrric victory in South Africa. The US military is more than capable of waging scorched earth warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are good reasons why US political and military leaders have decided that inflicting indiscriminate pain and severe suffering on civilian populations in those countries is not optimal in defeating terrorists. Those considerations are not entirely humanitarian.

Sorry, but a real policy of scorched earth or no quarter using the courts, is different than one dealing with military conquests. Trying to equate the two is just silly. But somehow I think you knew my meaning.

[blacklion]

Originally Posted by Rob71

Sorry, but a real policy of scorched earth or no quarter using the courts, is different than one dealing with military conquests. Trying to equate the two is just silly. But somehow I think you knew my meaning.

I'm pretty sure you perfectly understood my point that seeking the same or similar legal remedies in court/enforcement against Joe Sixpack or his kid as against a professional bootlegger or hard core teen torrenter is pretty silly. And doesn't work.

[Rob71]

Originally Posted by blacklion

I'm pretty sure you perfectly understood my point that seeking the same or similar legal remedies in court/enforcement against Joe Sixpack or his kid as against a professional bootlegger or hard core teen torrenter is pretty silly. And doesn't work.

Lawsuits don't work? That would be news to a few million ambulance chasers. If you make any activity too painful, you effect behavior. Pretty simple concept that most everyone accepts. Please explain to me how a real attack on the actual people who are the problem, the ones downloading the files and not paying for it, doesn't work. I'm going to get a drink, this should be good.

[blacklion]

Originally Posted by Rob71

Lawsuits don't work? That would be news to a few million ambulance chasers. If you make any activity too painful, you effect behavior. Pretty simple concept that most everyone accepts. Please explain to me how a real attack on the actual people who are the problem, the ones downloading the files and not paying for it, doesn't work. I'm going to get a drink, this should be good.

Do I take it that we are now fully agreed that the 'actual people who are the problem' are the professional bootleggers, hardcore torrenters and their confederates amongst Hollywood studio employees?

If yes, then sure, a 'real attack' via lawsuits in US courts will most certainly work against those perps that are within reach of enforcement on US territory.

Whereas disabling component outputs on BD players is the indiscriminate pain and suffering inflicted on Joe Sixpack and his kid

D'accord?

[Rob71]

Originally Posted by blacklion

Do I take it that we are now fully agreed that the 'actual people who are the problem' are the professional bootleggers, hardcore torrenters and their confederates amongst Hollywood studio employees?

If yes, then sure, a 'real attack' via lawsuits in US courts will most certainly work against those perps that are within reach of enforcement on US territory.

Whereas disabling component outputs on BD players is the indiscriminate pain and suffering inflicted on Joe Sixpack and his kid

D'accord?

Not exactly. I say go after the kids as harshly as the bootleggers. Obviously the "criminal" punishment won't be the same, but a stiff monetary award would go a long way in slowing down the problem. And as far as those outside the US, apparently our leaders don't have a problem with the EU coming after US citizens for "hate speech". Maybe a little tit for tat is in order. Hell, Europe needs money more than we do, cut them in on the "winnings", and I guarantee they'll go for it.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by blacklion

OK, one more time -

How exactly do torrenters and bootleggers get their hands on a movie weeks or months ahead of its release to theaters or on BD/DVD to the general public?

I don't know, the only movie I know that showed up before it hit theatres was Wolverine because there where articles all over the place about it. So as far as I know that is 100% BS and if you do spend your time pirating and that is why you are an expert on it, then your rants becomme 100% BS since your hatred of DRM is not because of consumer welfare and fightin g the men but you don't like that it interferes with your illigal activities.

How exactly will disabling component output on BD players prevent this from happening?

it is not my job to show how it will prevent that form. There is not just one form. It is up to you to prove to studios (not me because I don't care) that through component it is impossible to pirate.

A few years ago I was on a forum (don't remember if it was here or AVS) and the guy said he Netflixes movies and as soon as he gets them he copies them and sends them out and then eventually, when he wants , watches the copy off the HDD. I have a friend and I was invited to his home one Easter. At some point he goes "I just rented X, does any one of you want a copy" and his uncle replied "is it any good, if it is good, I rented Y, do you want it?"

The issue is that it needs to be fought with every tool, if it is stopped. Maybe a lot come from studios, Maybe a lot come from shaky cams, maybe only a few come from BDs, it does not matter, in the end you need to plug all the holes if you want to stop it. If component is the only way because all the crooked people where fired from studios and the theatres installed machines that detect camcorders and BD+ stops any dvd or what ever the other guys called that pirating SW, what do you think that will happen, the pirates will say “Oh no we can’t use component because it is not what we used before?

[vettemn86]

Well apparently Rob and Anthony have made it quite clear that the component people are the "minority" and they dont care because it "doesnt affect them". Its kinda funny to me that disabling and downscaling component connections is actually being done to prevent "piracy" (which is a load of crap).
Even stranger to me is the fact that most if not all of the BluRay disk founder group all sells televisions.

How about we all be honest with ourselves for once and see that this is a "cash grab upgrade fee" and not the piracy war they are claiming

[blacklion]

Originally Posted by vettemn86

Well apparently Rob and Anthony have made it quite clear that the component people are the "minority" and they dont care because it "doesnt affect them". Its kinda funny to me that disabling and downscaling component connections is actually being done to prevent "piracy" (which is a load of crap).
Even stranger to me is the fact that most if not all of the BluRay disk founder group all sells televisions.

How about we all be honest with ourselves for once and see that this is a "cash grab upgrade fee" and not the piracy war they are claiming

Its partly that certainly - at least from the CE manufacturer's POV. Just like they are desperately plugging 3D to hype people into buying new HDTVs with higher profit margins for the TV manufacturers.

From the studios' end, its clear that the component output users are the low, hanging fruit, the soft targets; they are hitting this segment simply because they just don't know what else to do to prevent BDs and DVDs from being copied. They introduced HDMI and HDCP but AnyDVD and similar programs have rendered those DRM absolutely useless in stopping professional bootleggers and hardcore torrenters. So in confusion and not knowing what else to do, they now want to disable analog video and audio outputs in forlorn hope of stopping analog users from copying movies.

Truth is, the studios are unwilling or unable to plug the gaping hole from which these movies leak through to the torrenters and bootleggers i.e. their own dishonest employees. They also have no solution to ripping programs like AnyDVD.

Its truly sad but 'lemming' fits the studio execs perfectly. A radically different business model is needed for the movie industry in the 21st C but the studio execs prefer to bury their heads in the sand and imagine they can continue doing business as they did in the 20thC. They can see what has hit the music industry but they refuse to learn anything from it. Instead they keep dreaming that there is one or the other magic technology that will stop copying of movies.

Perhaps, they'll eventually attempt a new DivX style DRM that requires a constant web connection to play BDs through which they can attempt real-time, constant verification that the consumer does not have a copying device at the other end. The pirates will then invent a masking device to fool this DivX II DRM; then the studios will...???? Where does it end? Its always the legitimate end user who suffers in the end.

[blacklion]

Originally Posted by Rob71

Not exactly. I say go after the kids as harshly as the bootleggers. Obviously the "criminal" punishment won't be the same, but a stiff monetary award would go a long way in slowing down the problem. And as far as those outside the US, apparently our leaders don't have a problem with the EU coming after US citizens for "hate speech". Maybe a little tit for tat is in order. Hell, Europe needs money more than we do, cut them in on the "winnings", and I guarantee they'll go for it.

As far I know, the EU is already on side in terms of supporting enforcement by US companies of IP rights within their territories. They too have their own creative industries to protect including brands like 'Champagne', 'Beaujolais' etc - and they are extremely aggressive in protecting their own IP rights The challenge lies further east especially Russia and the Baltics where much torrenting originates - along with other forms of cyber-crime. I may be wrong but it seems there is limited possibility of enforcing IP rights there in the near future given poor political relations with the US.

I personally have qualms about socking Joe Sixpack and missus with stiff fines for Junior's torrenting habits especially in this economy. Especially when J6P doesn't know how to configure a router, hasn't the least clue what Junior gets up to in his room, what sites he visits etc. I suspect many jurors would too. Now if you managed to haul a studio employee into court for stealing a pre-release master copy and selling it to Shanghai bootleggers, I suspect most juries would have few qualms in imposing steep fines and ordering restitution.