Sony doesn't know how to fight

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by Anton

I know what your trying to say Gremal, but I'm not in total agreement. I don't think the average consumer thinks SD Technology (and therefore DVD) is perfect, because there is plenty of consumer awareness of HDTV.

Maybe in certain segments around major metropolitan areas, but the average consumer (despite all the hype you read in the home theater rags) is not adopting HDTV. We are in a niche market. We have disposable income. About 90% of the US population does not.

In fact, I doubt many consumers would even want to purchase a SDTV if they had the choice.

Most consumers live paycheck to paycheck and just try to keep their car running and take care of their family. I think we are in a very insular bubble on forums like this.

Originally Posted by Greenmatiz2

You know nothing about advertising rates.

Whoa. Where did that come from? I've been working on placing ads with my company for the past 9 yrs and I even worked on ads for an electronics company in the A/V industry before that.

100,000 is a drop in the bucket for TV. You would be lucky to get more than a few national ads in just the USA for that these days.

Are you addressing anything I said in my post? I was trying to refer to the TV ads for Casino Royale and Apocalypto which in addition to announcing the DVD release also announce blu-ray.

Stickers would cost very, very little, and would be much more effective for the money.

The only people who would see stickers are people already shopping for blu-ray and they are well aware of the situation and studio support. Like I said, you need to look at the market segment you are targeting. You put those stickers on the BDs and it accomplishes nothing, and the cost may be negligible compared to TV airtime, but Sony is paying for that airtime anyway, just for the DVD introduction. With stickers you not only pay for printing, but you pay for having a mailhouse stick those things on the shrinkwrap. I would much rather see Sony's marketing dollars be spent more wisely.

Sony is multi-million-dollar company. They should be spending money promoting BR more than they are.

That is just an insane statement. The amount of dollars Sony has sunk into blu-ray--almost singlehandedly spearheading introduction of the format and shouldering the burden of R&D and marketing thus far--is staggering. We movie fans are forever indebted to them because without Sony, we would have HD-DVD forced down our throats with no competition. The most important way Sony can promote blu-ray is to bring prices down, drum up more support from electronics manufacturers and studios, and that is where the focus needs to be right now. Another important area is settling the issue of standards like HDMI so the compatibility issues are fixed. Until then, even niche consumers will be a little wary.

And stickers were just one small sample idea of how they could be doing more than they are.

It is an example of how "in the box" people on this forum are thinking, as if they are the only market segment to think about. The unfortunate reality is that blu-ray cannot succeed with our support alone. Do you really think people are walking around in brick-and-mortars and looking at stickers on BDs and making buying decisions based on that? Use your head. Folks who own a HD-DVD player will not buy blu-ray no matter how many stickers you plaster on the shrinkwrap. Hopefully they will realize the studios support blu-ray more broadly and will eventually buy a BD player, at which point stickers will not matter.

If you want to win a football game, you don't leave your best players on the bench -- and you don't handicap yourself by not using your best plays. Sony isn't using their best, or highlighting their strengths enough.

Sorry, but I disagree. Sony has won many important games already by bringing blu-ray hardware and software to market and steadily gaining the respect of the home theater and gaming markets. Sony has brought on many manufacturers and studios and is now prominently mentioning blu-ray in ads and promotions. These are major accomplishments.

Sometimes I wonder if Sony doesn't sit around debating what to do at the upper levels so much, that they don't react fast enough. This is why I worry they will do too little too late.

All companies, when they are as big and successful as Sony, are like elephants. They act and react more slowly and methodically than smaller companies, but they have long memories. It's so easy to criticize Sony and lay the blame at Sony's feet for the inherent problems and challenges with making a high-resolution format succeed. There is no magic bullet for overcoming these challenges--which I still say has more to do with supplanting DVD as the reining video format than in beating HD-DVD in the niche market. If Sony continues to take the long-term strategy and looks at how to use its budget and resources to accomplish that instead of descending into the myopia of a format war with HD-DVD, blu-ray will do fine.

Another thing--it is considered poor form to even mention your competition in ads and marketing collateral. I'm glad Sony is taking the high road.

[k20king]

I dont understand.

Blu Ray is winning.

HD DVD players are at extreme lows at $299

and HD DVD at $13.99 a pop.

Sony is winning, which equals they do know how to fight.

Go Blu Ray! Get With the Program!

[MasterXeus]

I think Gremal has some good points, I really don't think Stickers will have that big of an impact.

I think Sony should focus more on finishing BDJ and BD+, so we can continue the flow of Blu-ray movies. By finishing BDJ, Blu-ray can also take away some of those time exclusives from HD-DVD, like Batman Begins.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by k20king

I dont understand.

Blu Ray is winning.

HD DVD players are at extreme lows at $299

and HD DVD at $13.99 a pop.

Sony is winning, which equals they do know how to fight.

Go Blu Ray! Get With the Program!

Yeah, but as I said, the real format war is with DVD as the mass marketed video format.

[TJandBLU-RAY]

Originally Posted by Gremal

Yeah, but as I said, the real format war is with DVD as the mass marketed video format.

That is wise. And true.

I am the only person in my family who has BD. And my family is...well, we ain't hurting, let's put it that way. My cousin Bill, he got one for free, and has yet to hook it up. (Bill Maher is my cousin)...

I think it's a bit like when I was a kid. We had Black and White TV. For the longest time, even though color was around. My parents did not see the need for color, when B&W worked fine. The same can be said for BD vs. DVD. DVD works fine. And forums like this, while informative, also work against BD in some regards, since issues about BD are openly discussed. Like hardware problems. IF you are interested in BLU-RAY, and you GOOGLE it, like I did to find this, and you read about the problems...you may run out of here before you read further and see how they are being addressed.

DVD will be around as long as this format war is going on, and unless a clear winner is chosen, and that winner can get the product to be cheaper (much cheaper; just yesterday at BRANDS SMART, a local store, I saw a DVD player for $18 (!)...now I don't think BD is going to be that cheap soon, but you can can see how far it has to go)

BD is better; I tried both formats, and found HD-DVD, well, just not the same. But to the average person, DVD is just fine, thank you very much, and will be that way for a while.

Oh, and BTW, my family go our first color TV, a 13 inch Panasonic, in 1976.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by TJandBLU-RAY

I am the only person in my family who has BD. And my family is...well, we ain't hurting, let's put it that way. My cousin Bill, he got one for free, and has yet to hook it up. (Bill Maher is my cousin)...

Whoa! He seems like a cool guy to have for a cousin. Probably too busy to hook it up.

I'm sure we all have examples. My family isn't hurting either. My parents are retired in one of the most affluent communities in the US. They don't even have an HDTV in their home theater room. Their gear is cheap and looks and sounds like crap. My brother (9 yrs younger than me) got a job at Cisco a year ago and is hauling in a six figure salary. I've tried to push him to get a PS3 and he refuses. He loves games and movies, but he can't even be bothered with blu-ray.

None of my friends and coworkers have adopted the format. These include oncologists, senior programmers and technophiles of all kinds. They just aren't interested.

I know personal acquaintances don't mean anything in the bigger picture, but I thought I'd mention my experience. If I wasn't an early adopter and passionate about movies, blu-ray wouldn't even be on my radar. Same thing with music and SACD.

[aaronwt]

The sales numbers for both formats combined are just a drop in the bucket when compared to DVD. Neither format will supplant DVD. BD has the potential to be the best format and some of the recent releases show that potential. But unfortunately the majority of titles are not better than many HD DVDs. I've watched many BDs and HD DVDS the past 13 months. I think by the end of the year the BD movies will really start to shine but either way, both formats will be around for a while and neither one will ever take the crown from DVD. On Demand and Video downloads will become the norm for the average person before BD/HD DVD ever will.
Your average person just doesn't care about BD/HD DVD. And most, unfortunately, never will.

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by TJandBLU-RAY

BD is better; I tried both formats, and found HD-DVD, well, just not the same. But to the average person, DVD is just fine, thank you very much, and will be that way for a while.

I have to disagree with the second statement. In the few times I've walked through a Sam's Club or Costco in the last six months they've had several large and moderate sized HDTV displays (often 1080 displays). Often they run simulations side by side on the same screen showing simulated SD imagery/video next to 1080 imagery/video. I've seen and heard many people passing by them stop and openly state how much better the HD looks compared to the SD video. People shopping at these "big box stores" run almost the full gamut of the population. People certainly are becoming aware of the significant difference and can appreciate it.

It is a matter of being able to afford it. When 720p monitors were $5,000+ a few years ago and true 1080p monitors were rarer than hen's teeth, any form of HD was a niche market. Now with 1080p monitors as low as $1,000 for certain models, and still heading down from this, the divide has been crossed to the start of general acceptance. When the cross over to below $1,000 for the average 1080p monitor happens it will be truly ready for the mass market. This could happen before the end of this year.

While many of the industry pundits tried to proclaim 2006 as the "year of HD" (and a few even tried to do it in 2005), I believe 2008 will really be the start of mass transition, and we'll start to see that in the holiday season of 2007. The tidal wave of change will be in full force in 2009. (As much because the switch to digital is viewed by most people as a requirement to switch to HD. It's not, but that's the perception and the industry strongly supports this perception.)

I believe the Blu-ray companies (and Sony is only one of those companies) need to end the "format war" before spring 2008, if not sooner, because the mass switch over will be well under way by then. It will be extremely difficult to kill off HD DVD in the summer of 2008 if there are a few million of the players in people's homes by then.

Originally Posted by TJandBLU-RAY

Oh, and BTW, my family go our first color TV, a 13 inch Panasonic, in 1976.

And for several years my family's (parents, sisters and brothers) only form of audio/video entertainment was my personal radio, but I stopped feeling bad about that years ago.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

btw Beta wasn't better.

Actually it was better, alot better. So much better that it ended up in every TV station all over the world. It was also used for years in the film industry as well before everyone jumped over to servers. Beta is still used as a editing tool even in the presence of servers.

[GoldenRedux]

Thread moved to General Discussion.

[phranctoast]

Beta initially was better, then there was a different vhs released that was better than beta. I dont know all the specifics. You could look it up on wikipedia if you want.

I Agree with the OP on this topics though.

I know BR is already winning the format war, but I would like total destruction of HDDVD so that we could have Universal go neutral sooner than later.

Mayeb not stickers on the BRD cases, but posters showing how much more support br has over HDDVD. Something letting Joe Six Pack know that, if he wants certain movies on HD he will have no other choice then to side with BRD.

[Mystique]

Sony should have exclusive on all their blu-ray dvds and movies that are only on BLU-RAY.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by aaronwt

The sales numbers for both formats combined are just a drop in the bucket when compared to DVD. Neither format will supplant DVD. BD has the potential to be the best format and some of the recent releases show that potential. But unfortunately the majority of titles are not better than many HD DVDs. I've watched many BDs and HD DVDS the past 13 months. I think by the end of the year the BD movies will really start to shine but either way, both formats will be around for a while and neither one will ever take the crown from DVD. On Demand and Video downloads will become the norm for the average person before BD/HD DVD ever will.
Your average person just doesn't care about BD/HD DVD. And most, unfortunately, never will.

Personally based on what I have read, downloading has peaked, and is no longer growing in its current way. For music, its exploding. For movies, it peaked in 2005, and has trended downward since. There would have to be a new financial and delivery model to video downloading, or its success is very much in the air.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by phranctoast

Beta initially was better, then there was a different vhs released that was better than beta. I dont know all the specifics. You could look it up on wikipedia if you want.

Beta came out, VHS followed. Both mono machines. Beta comes out in stereo, VHS comes out with stereo and longer recording times. Beta comes out with a longer playing times and hifi stereo, VHS follows with hifi stereo and ELP recording time. VHS wins the cosumer market, Beta wins the professional market.

When it comes to PQ and AQ beta won. Longer recording times and cheaper price made VHS the winner for the consumer market. VHS never had the better technology, but they had more choice for players(where Blu-ray finds itself now) and that lead to inner format aggressive pricing structure which consumer found more palatable.

[Greenmatiz2]

Originally Posted by Gremal

Whoa. Where did that come from? I've been working on placing ads with my company for the past 9 yrs and I even worked on ads for an electronics company in the A/V industry before that.

Which means you rely on an ad agency, or someone like I was to help you place the ad time and make decisions. Placing ads can mean a lot of things. Please don't infer that you are some kind of expert because you told some ad exec or designer that you wanted this model with that text. I dealt with people like you for a living. Large companies rely on ad agencies and entire departments to place ads.

Originally Posted by Gremal

Are you addressing anything I said in my post? I was trying to refer to the TV ads for Casino Royale and Apocalypto which in addition to announcing the DVD release also announce blu-ray.

No, because I didn't care to comment on the other aspects of your post. It's not what I cared to debate.

Originally Posted by Gremal

The only people who would see stickers are people already shopping for blu-ray and they are well aware of the situation and studio support. Like I said, you need to look at the market segment you are targeting.

Exactly, Einstein. The market segment we are targeting are the people shopping at Wal-mart, Best-Buy, etc. The ones who, as you so brilliantly pointed out above, are the general consumer who know nothing about HD video, but are curious. Please tell me why pointing out how movies like Pirates and the MANY Sony-exclusive movies is a waste of money, and not of interest to this type of person?

Originally Posted by Gremal

You put those stickers on the BDs and it accomplishes nothing, and the cost may be negligible compared to TV airtime, but Sony is paying for that airtime anyway, just for the DVD introduction. With stickers you not only pay for printing, but you pay for having a mailhouse stick those things on the shrinkwrap. I would much rather see Sony's marketing dollars be spent more wisely.

On what? This war must be fought on multiple fronts, and a very important front is in the store. That is where general consumers are going to be seeing this first-hand. If they see a row of BR movies, and a row of HD movies, it is certainly an advantage for them to know that BR has many more exclusive titles, and that the can't get many of their favorite movies on anything but BR.

Stickers are very, very cheap in bulk compared to just an ad or two on national TV (which is losing its appeal, anyway). And I'm not saying to stop doing TV -- how many BR TV ads have YOU seen? My point is that Sony is not advertising enough. Just look at how many searches people do for BR vs. HD-DVD at http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm

Does this not tell you that Sony needs to be working on branding, and getting the Blu-ray name in the public vocabulary?

Originally Posted by Gremal

That is just an insane statement. The amount of dollars Sony has sunk into blu-ray--almost singlehandedly spearheading introduction of the format and shouldering the burden of R&D and marketing thus far--is staggering.

In R&D, certainly. But that's not my argument. The general public, on average, have no clue what Blu-ray is, or why they should buy it -- let alone that it is has more to offer than HD-DVD. Most do know what "High Definition TV" means, at a basic level, but they have no clue what BR is. Just ask some random people in public and see.

Originally Posted by Gremal

The most important way Sony can promote blu-ray is to bring prices down, drum up more support from electronics manufacturers and studios, and that is where the focus needs to be right now.

Yes, because those cheap players are going to be purchased by the general population at Wal-Mart, Best-Buy, etc., and they are going to be examining movie boxes at the same time they consider their purchase.

Again.... sticker highlighting "This movie available only on Blu-Ray" is a no-brainer, and an inexpensive way of letting the consumer know this. Heck, print it on the movie under the title -- that will cost almost nothing, if anything, if you think stickers are too expensive.

Originally Posted by Gremal

It is an example of how "in the box" people on this forum are thinking, as if they are the only market segment to think about. The unfortunate reality is that blu-ray cannot succeed with our support alone. Do you really think people are walking around in brick-and-mortars and looking at stickers on BDs and making buying decisions based on that? Use your head. Folks who own a HD-DVD player will not buy blu-ray no matter how many stickers you plaster on the shrinkwrap.

Excuse me, but I'm the one thinking "out of the box" here. You're the one telling us that Sony is doing a great job on advertising -- I'm disagreeing with that perception. Stickers on the boxes will help for the reasons I outlined above. Did I say that was to be the ONLY advertising? No... stop putting words in my mouth. Advertising needs to be ramped-up on everything, everywhere. That has been my point from the beginning.

Originally Posted by Gremal

Hopefully they will realize the studios support blu-ray more broadly and will eventually buy a BD player, at which point stickers will not matter.

And just how are they going to realize this?

Originally Posted by Gremal

All companies, when they are as big and successful as Sony, are like elephants. They act and react more slowly and methodically than smaller companies, but they have long memories.

Well, I would hope they remember things like BetaMax, Mini-Discs... and learn something about why they failed... should I go on?

Originally Posted by Gremal

It's so easy to criticize Sony and lay the blame at Sony's feet for the inherent problems and challenges with making a high-resolution format succeed. There is no magic bullet for overcoming these challenges--which I still say has more to do with supplanting DVD as the reining video format than in beating HD-DVD in the niche market. If Sony continues to take the long-term strategy and looks at how to use its budget and resources to accomplish that instead of descending into the myopia of a format war with HD-DVD, blu-ray will do fine.

I don't get it... you're arguing that spending some more on advertising Blu-ray will be too expensive for Sony, and that resources are tight? Or you're trying to seem intelligent by pointing out the obvious about Standard DVD, which I never disagreed with, let alone mentioned?

Bottom line: We need more advertising. Blu-ray is not a public buzz-word. It needs to be. HD-DVD has some advantages in this area, simply because of their name.

Originally Posted by Gremal

Another thing--it is considered poor form to even mention your competition in ads and marketing collateral. I'm glad Sony is taking the high road.

Did I say they have to mention the competition's name? Where did I say that? I said they should use the stickers to point out that the movie is a Blu-ray exclusive.


In any case, my point is , and always was, that Sony needs to take advantage of every avenue possible to get the word "Blu-Ray" out in the public. They also need to push the advantages of Blu-Ray, and get the public to understand that. When people like my mom and dad are shopping at Best-Buy, and they walk next to a big 50" LCD TV showing this great-looking Planet Earth video, they might stop and examine it. If they are really interested, then they might start looking at the players, noticing that there are two formats. After that, they'll be picking through the movies on the shelf, and see (probably) a fair number of movies offered by both. At this point, they may or may not realize that Blu-Ray has BETTER movies to offer.

The key is to make sure they NOTICE that the better movies are on Blu-Ray.

And what is one small, inexpensive way we can help them realize this?


STICKERS....

[Shin-Ra]

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1...lboard1yh0.jpg

[Greenmatiz2]

A gorgeous ad in Russian for the PS3, viewed by an incredibly small segment of the population there. (looks like some kind of Eastern-block language, even though its from a Netherlands site, right?)

A prime example of wasted money. Very, very expensive, but poor placement (if it's in Russia).

I can tell it's not working, based on the number of Russians doing Folding @ Home.

Doesn't even seem to say much of anything about BR, except for showing a few movies.

Totally ignored by anyone who doesn't care about games.

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by Shin-Ra

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1...lboard1yh0.jpg

Walmart superstores are big enough to take one of thoses.

[dillycheeze]

Originally Posted by Gremal

Part of the problem we are failing to admit to ourselves is that we are not average consumers.

The average consumer thinks DVD is perfect, just like they think CD is perfect.

Totally agree - it doesn't help that over the years there have been countless dvd re-releases with the "MASTERED IN HIGH DEFINITION" (who came up with this) tag....and then you try to tell someone that dvd is not HD and they look like this --> Most people have no clue about any of this.....all those directv commercials that talk about broadcasting in 1080i....to most its a foreign language.....then you add in 720p,1080p, HDMI.....they dont want the headache....so at the start of 'the war'....i thought hd-dvd would have a big advantage just because of its simple name....but im glad to see quality is winning.....sony should run infomercials to break some of this down to people and get them interested..lol

on a totally separate note.....whats up with new line cinema's non-existent release schedule?

[Greenmatiz2]

Man, isn't that the truth.... 720p, 1080i, 1080p.... madness! People get confused. Hell, I'm a techie-type, and it was confusing to me!