'Star Trek Beyond' - July 22, 2016

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Darth Marcus

But I have to ask where is the hate for the film coming from? Script problems? Direction problems? Acting issues?

Or is it merely hate because they don't like that the new Khan is different than what's come before, and therefore it's not a "Trek" film. Which is what it boils down to. And they have every right to not like this new incarnation of Khan. I'm not even saying that. But the worst Star Trek film? Is that a legitimate film criticism? Because they don't like this version of Khan? Give me a break. That stems from a connection to previous material that they're desperately clinging onto, and an incarnation that they'll probably never get again.

They can throw out that they don't like that STID is too much action and spectacle versus methodical conversation, but so was ST 2009 and as you say, it ranked 6th.

And even though I'm sounding dismissive, I can totally understand where they're coming from. I'm not completely writing them off. I empathize. I had a knee-jerk reaction at the changes to Iron Man 3 and Man of Steel, but if I remove that bias and look at the films objectively, they're not bad films. I do criticize a few script problems (at least in my eyes) of the films, but just because these films have certain incarnations of characters that I necessarily wouldn't have done or wanted, I do not hold that against them. It's not a legitimate film criticism.

Khan is the least of the movie's problems. What, you really think that the hatred all stems from the fact that it's not Ricardo Montalban up there? Personally I think it's really interesting how they've repurposed Khan into the nuTrek universe, it's pretty much everything else to do with the story and the plotting which kills it.

But I've gone over why I think STID sucks donkey balls too many times so I'm not gonna go into specifics again, lest I get the same old shit from certain forum regulars (Gertie photo following in 3...2...1...). And if nothing bothers you about the movie then I'm not sure that my thoughts would be enlightening in any case.

[Darth Marcus]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Khan is the least of the movie's problems. What, you really think that the hatred all stems from the fact that it's not Ricardo Montalban up there? Personally I think it's really interesting how they've repurposed Khan into the nuTrek universe, it's pretty much everything else to do with the story and the plotting which kills it.

But I've gone over why I think STID sucks donkey balls too many times so I'm not gonna go into specifics again, lest I get the same old shit from certain forum regulars (Gertie photo following in 3...2...1...). And if nothing bothers you about the movie then I'm not sure that my thoughts would be enlightening in any case.

Well if you're up for it you can pvt message if you like, or we can just agree to disagree. I understand if you're tired of explaining why you think it's a bad film.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Personally I think it's really interesting how they've repurposed Khan into the nuTrek universe, it's pretty much everything else to do with the story and the plotting which kills it.

I think if it had started out with the discover of the SS Botany Bay and gone from there it would have been far more interesting ... and why was there any mystery to his identity? new fans wouldn't even care and it has no-context in the new movies. I'm surprised no-one said "who gives a shit?" when he dropped that bombshell ...

I really enjoyed the movie, but Star Trek Into Darkness is a well-made pinball machine without any balls, but it contains copious amounts of flipping, nudging, flashing lights and loud noises ...

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Darth Marcus

Well if you're up for it you can pvt message if you like, or we can just agree to disagree. I understand if you're tired of explaining why you think it's a bad film.

I might take you up on that. It's gonna take me a while to get this all typed out...

[dvdmike]

I will (even as a star trek fanboy from year one) just be leaving this here
Trekkies Bash New Star Trek Film As 'Fun, Watchable': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02Lg...ature=youtu.be

[Geoff D]

That's about the first film. I love the first film.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's about the first film. I love the first film.

I know but the points raised follow totally

[Geoff D]

Heh. My PM to Marcus is longer than 5000 characters so I'll have to send it to you in two parts, bud!

[CouncilSpectre]

I didn't mind STID. Far from my favourite Trek movie, but equally far better than the likes of Nemesis or The Final Frontier. Probably better than The Motion Picture and Insurrection too while I'm thinking about it.

[Darth Marcus]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Heh. My PM to Marcus is longer than 5000 characters so I'll have to send it to you in two parts, bud!

Just saw your PM's. Quite a lot to read!

I've got some meetings to attend to in a bit (unfortunately I don't get paid to hang out on here all day), but I'll try to respond as soon as I can.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Darth Marcus

But I have to ask where is the hate for the film coming from? Script problems?

Yes.

I do dislike the action-teens style of the new movies, but there are also deeper problems with them as films in general. The plot and script had a ton of issues in Into Darkness, as did character motivations and behaviors. The core idea was solid if you take out Khan, but the execution was iffy as hell.

[Geoff D]

There are two things I'd love to see in the new movie: an acknowledgement of Leonard Nimoy's passing, not just as a title card but by retiring or killing off Spock Prime in the new timeline, which would have the added bonus of nuSpock not being able to get the Cliff Notes version of every predicament that they face.

I know it'd be a bit of a bummer for a movie which will otherwise be a celebration of Trek in its 50th anniversary year, but that's where the other thing comes in: they've GOT to work in a Shatner cameo somehow, someway. I still like the idea that they had on ST '09 where Spock Prime was gonna play nuSpock a recorded message of Kirk, but, as with every other mooted Shatner cameo ever, it didn't happen. I get that he doesn't want to be a disembodied head (Futurama aside) but he's gotta realise that he can't go around running and jumping and shagging green alien babes any more; that's Chris Pine's job!

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

There are two things I'd love to see in the new movie: an acknowledgement of Leonard Nimoy's passing, not just as a title card but by retiring or killing off Spock Prime in the new timeline, which would have the added bonus of nuSpock not being able to get the Cliff Notes version of every predicament that they face.

I'm not sure how I'd feel about the Spock thing. I didn't like the way he was used in STID, as you said Spock just called him and asked him about Khan. It was weird ... I guess in the alternative timeline Spock would be really used, the Federation bad guys seem the types that would milk him dry for future event information, so perhaps he could disappear, as he wouldn't willingly spill the beans. I can see them transferring his consciousness to a computer to prolong his use, so they could have some fun with that ...

I wouldn't be opposed to a highlight reel at the end of the movie, given us a final cinematic tribute to the great Leonard Nimoy, that could be quite fitting.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by chip75

I'm not sure how I'd feel about the Spock thing. I didn't like the way he was used in STID, as you said Spock just called him and asked him about Khan. It was weird ... I guess in the alternative timeline Spock would be really used, the Federation bad guys seem the types that would milk him dry for future event information, so perhaps he could disappear, as he wouldn't willingly spill the beans. I can see them transferring his consciousness to a computer to prolong his use, so they could have some fun with that ...

I wouldn't be opposed to a highlight reel at the end of the movie, given us a final cinematic tribute to the great Leonard Nimoy, that could be quite fitting.

Yeah, they could just retire the character, but obviously they can't use Nimoy from here on out so it'd be nice if they'd acknowledge that in the film itself. Good point about all the information that he'd carry, that could've been fleshed out into a proper plot in the films ahead (all the nefarious types in the galaxy would want him for their own ends; The Search For Spock indeed) rather than him being Spock The Expositioner, but Nimoy was far too old to have anything more than a brief cameo. And now he's gone.

As for doing something at the end, I could see that working too. They finished STVI with that selection of signatures set to a triumphant fanfare so it's not like they've never done anything like that before.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah, they could just retire the character, but obviously they can't use Nimoy from here on out so it'd be nice if they'd acknowledge that in the film itself. Good point about all the information that he'd carry, that could've been fleshed out into a proper plot in the films ahead (all the nefarious types in the galaxy would want him for their own ends; The Search For Spock indeed) rather than him being Spock The Expositioner, but Nimoy was far too old to have anything more than a brief cameo. And now he's gone.

As for doing something at the end, I could see that working too. They finished STVI with that selection of signatures set to a triumphant fanfare so it's not like they've never done anything like that before.

It would be interesting if Spock decided he was still needed in the new time-line, and decided to prolong his life by transferring his katra to another Vulcan. Obviously it would make him evil and we'd have a Enterprise versus Spock chase across the galaxy, as other races try and use his memories for their own nefarious purposes ... and original Kirk brought in to help the cause!

He needs a fitting goodbye, I don't think a title card will cut it, but there's a risk of bringing the audience down when they do it ...

Seinfeld: When Spock Died - YouTube

[Infernal King]

I think the new Trek films are just as dumb, loud and filled with pointless action scenes as Nemesis. But they're made with greater appeal to the mass audience (read: Abrams is a better director than Baird) and star a sexy young cast.

[Iron-Fisted Punk]

Originally Posted by Infernal King

I think the new Trek films are just as dumb, loud and filled with pointless action scenes as Nemesis. But they're made with greater appeal to the mass audience (read: Abrams is a better director than Baird) and star a sexy young cast.

Good point about Nemesis. It was, at the time, easily the most action-oriented Trek film. The thing is, they had good character scenes in there, but Baird deleted most of them out. It'd be nice to have an extended cut of Nemesis with those extra scenes put back in.

And yes, the TNG cast wasn't looking too good by 2002. Despite the action, the movie felt tired and very low energy, unlike the new ones.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by Iron-Fisted Punk

Good point about Nemesis. It was, at the time, easily the most action-oriented Trek film. The thing is, they had good character scenes in there, but Baird deleted most of them out. It'd be nice to have an extended cut of Nemesis with those extra scenes put back in.

And yes, the TNG cast wasn't looking too good by 2002. Despite the action, the movie felt tired and very low energy, unlike the new ones.

Apparently Baird didn't know anything about Star Trek, which should have been a major roadblock during the hiring process but I guess not?

As a huge TNG fan, I'm harder on Nemesis than nuTrek. It should have been that crew's Undiscovered Country, whereas I'm not invested in the reboot so I don't get angry when the films suck, just annoyed that I wasted my time watching them (particularly Into Darkness).

[CouncilSpectre]

Such a shame that Q never made it into the TNG movies. Can only imagine the sh1t he could have pulled on a movie budget!

That being said, I like his final appearance being the bookend to the series, especially given the nature of that story.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by CouncilSpectre

Such a shame that Q never made it into the TNG movies. Can only imagine the sh1t he could have pulled on a movie budget!

That being said, I like his final appearance being the bookend to the series, especially given the nature of that story.

All Good Things is not only one of the best TV finales ever but it's way better than any of the TNG movies.