Star Wars Question Regarding Palpatine/Darth Sidious

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Yaargh...just watched the opera scene...I think I'm going senile before I turn 40. The origins of Anakin are referred to, McCallum praises the scene for baiting the hook for Anakin, but I think it was the Annotated Screenplay that refers to the specific deleted dialog, not the DVD commentary.

*sigh*

Sorry folks. 6 year old memories get jumbled a bit.

Add Ernest Rister to the list of those who raped your childhood, folks.

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally Posted by groove93

I always felt that Sidious planted some seeds early on in his teaching of various prospects under his wing. Dooku/Tyrannus's defiance which is a trait found in Qui Gon Gin, which is later passed down to Obi Wan. It's quite obvious that we see this in Anikan. The excuse that Anikan was too old to be trained is only part of the problem. The person training him is very pivotal and Sidious knew this.

I'm not real sure of what you're saying here. Palps had no say in who Anakin's Master would be, so I don't think that this was all part of his plan. He also never had anything to do directly with the Jedi Council until Ep.III. Up until then he was only manipulating Anakin and using The Dark Side to keep the other Jedi from sensing anything. This especially proved great for him since the Jedi believed that such a thing was impossible.

Although, I do like the connection you made between Dooku, Qui, Obi & Anakin's disobediance. Every October, since Ep. III hit DVD shelves, a few buddies and I get together and watch every movie, from TPM to ROTJ, all in one day. (This year we started at around 9am and finished at around 2am.) During which we bring up certain plotpoints. I'm gonna haveta bring that up next year and see what responses I get!

When Maul defeated Qui Gon, I saw anger in Obi Wan and used more aggression to try and defeat Maul. The close up of Maul and Obi Won just before Maul "force punched" Kenobi down the the pit is a perfect example of loosing one's self.

This is one that we have discussed! I personally don't see anger in Obi's eyes. It's more determination. I mean, he MUST defeat Maul or die himself! He knows he's fighting a dangerous opponent that just killed his Master and is intent on destroying him!

A perfect example of my assumption is the looks on their faces after the force push; Maul is noticably pissed (kinda like Anakin was on the lava bank), while Obi is more focused on what he has to do next (kinda like he was on the lava bank).

[Sylin]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy

This is one that we have discussed! I personally don't see anger in Obi's eyes. It's more determination. I mean, he MUST defeat Maul or die himself! He knows he's fighting a dangerous opponent that just killed his Master and is intent on destroying him!

I agree. It's like when soldiers lose their commanding officer in battle. To some, it demoralizes them. To others, they rise up and determinately take the lead. It's a very positive character trait.

I think it's awesome that you and your buddies watch all the SW movies. When I was growing up, my uncle, my father, my brother and I would get together around Thanksgiving and watch either the Indiana Jones films (only 2 at that time), or Back to the Future. It was a nice experience.

Originally Posted by Diesel

Kenobi did use anger when fighting Maul over his master's defeat, but it did not when him the battle, it got him knocked down a freaking hole.

Only when he calmed himself (and then jumped up) did he kill Maul.

Which, interestingly enough, when you think about it, Maul had the "high ground," but Obi Wan still avoided his attack and defeated him.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by GeneD5

Here's another point for discussion:

Obi-Wan gets his a$$ handed to himself everytime he encounters Dooku (end of epII as well as the beginning of epIII) and Anakin is the one who ends up taking Dooku out, and quite easily at that. But, at the end of epIII Obi-Wan not only duels out out big time with Anakin, but takes Anakin down. So Obi-Wan clearly can't take Dooku down, but can take down the guy who takes Dooku down...the math doesn't add up.

Simple answer: think Rock-Paper-Scissors.

In this case, Obi-Wan, being the one who taught Anakin how to fight with a light saber, is going to be more familiar with his style and how to counter it than other opponents.

[Sponge-worthy]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy

It's the rule of The Sith: a Sith apprentice cannot acheive the rank of Master until he's killed his own. Dooku was trying to tempt Obi Wan into joining him. (Not much different than Vader tried with Padme and Luke.) It's a big reason why there aren't very many Sith left; they're constantly trying to kill each other!

Doesn't really seem like a recipe for success. What incentive would a Sith master have to even take on an apprentice? How could the Sith ever expect to defeat the Jedi when the Sith have such high turnover, "retiring" their veteran warriors?

[groove93]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy

I'm not real sure of what you're saying here. Palps had no say in who Anakin's Master would be, so I don't think that this was all part of his plan. He also never had anything to do directly with the Jedi Council until Ep.III. Up until then he was only manipulating Anakin and using The Dark Side to keep the other Jedi from sensing anything. This especially proved great for him since the Jedi believed that such a thing was impossible.

Although, I do like the connection you made between Dooku, Qui, Obi & Anakin's disobediance. Every October, since Ep. III hit DVD shelves, a few buddies and I get together and watch every movie, from TPM to ROTJ, all in one day. (This year we started at around 9am and finished at around 2am.) During which we bring up certain plotpoints. I'm gonna haveta bring that up next year and see what responses I get!

This is one that we have discussed! I personally don't see anger in Obi's eyes. It's more determination. I mean, he MUST defeat Maul or die himself! He knows he's fighting a dangerous opponent that just killed his Master and is intent on destroying him!

A perfect example of my assumption is the looks on their faces after the force push; Maul is noticably pissed (kinda like Anakin was on the lava bank), while Obi is more focused on what he has to do next (kinda like he was on the lava bank).

Think about the events which occurred in Episode II. Anikan was isolated from Obi Wan to watch over Padme. I'm pretty sure Palpatine felt a bond not only with Anikan's mother, but now with Padme. That's the first step down the path. This is why in the sequence at the beginning of the film you see Yoda turn back towards Palpatine, as someone else also noted earlier in this thread.

Get Anikan away from his master, a person of trust, wisdom, a shelter, a caregiver, and expose the young Padawan to fear (his devotion to finding his mother), passion, and an uncontrollable desire to be with Padme, and an uncontrollable desire to become powerful.

The events which occurred during Anikan's isolation were enough for him to go over the edge, and as a result almost lose his life when he confronted Dooku. He was willing to remove himself from the Jedi order because of his love for Padme.

This was all orchestrated by Sidious. It was a sloowwwwww process, going the same pace as his Puppet Mastering of the Senate. On one hand, Palpatine will rule the galaxy from a political stand point, while on the other, he will rule the galaxy as a Sith Master with his most powerful Right-hand Man to aid him in his quest for power.

[groove93]

Originally Posted by ryan69969

Doesn't really seem like a recipe for success. What incentive would a Sith master have to even take on an apprentice? How could the Sith ever expect to defeat the Jedi when the Sith have such high turnover, "retiring" their veteran warriors?

Read the story of Darth Bane.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by ryan69969

Doesn't really seem like a recipe for success. What incentive would a Sith master have to even take on an apprentice? How could the Sith ever expect to defeat the Jedi when the Sith have such high turnover, "retiring" their veteran warriors?

You definitely have valid points here.

Part of the basis for the 2 rule was to avoid a drowned out talent pool: only the absolute best are admitted. Another part of the reasoning is to avoid detection.

Like some other villains, Sith do have illogical practices with underlying reasons. Bane must have known the Rule of 2 would create in-fighting, but it was also his belief that the strongest Sith were also the ones most likely to kill in their lust for power.

I'm still trying to fully understand it myself as I've a fanfic underway.

[TRIGON]

Originally Posted by Pauliesr

It worked for Star Trek. It'd be a whole new generation watching...just like what happened with Episodes I-III.

Almost all people from the IV-VI generation didn't like I-III but what about the new generation? Those people that have watched I-III and THEN watched IV-VI and all they had to say was 'the special effects weren't as good'.

It would ruin it for the IV-VI generation like how we felt after watching I-III but might be good for the newbies.

I know what you mean but bad movies are bad movies, either way you cut it. Regardless of generational differences the prequels were not that good. Though Revenge wasnt too bad and was the most "like star wars" to me. The other 2 were pretty awful. I think if they do 7-9 it will have to be farther in the future with the original cast only in supporting roles. Just my 2 cents..

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by Jwilly019

Would you care to explain why you only "maybe" consider Vader to be Sith? He's always seemed like one to me, but knowledge of the Star Wars Universe barely extends beyond the movies.

The fact that he was able to redeem himself. A person who is Sith to the core would irredeemable. In the overall scheme it plays out more as Anakin making a single bad decision that snowballs out of control, and he doesn't "make things right" until just before his death. He doesn't seem as a person who turned to the dark side because he was truly willing to forgo morality to gain power. He forgot morality because he thought it was necessary to avert his prophetic vision, when in reality, it directly led to it.

Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy

In response to Afrobean:
Obi Wan never used anger to defeat Maul!

The look on his face, him yelling "no!", say otherwise. Just look at his body language before facing Maul compared to Qui-gon's own body language before facing Maul. Qui-gon takes a meditative stance and waits calmly for the energy wall to come down. Obi-wan stands there and looks really pissed off, then when the wall comes down, he is visibly more aggressive. His strikes are harder and faster than before, and he makes use of a kick to catch Maul off-guard, something I don't think a Jedi ever does in any other instance.

Originally Posted by Diesel

Kenobi did use anger when fighting Maul over his master's defeat, but it did not when him the battle, it got him knocked down a freaking hole.

Only when he calmed himself (and then jumped up) did he kill Maul.

He was still emotionally shaken after he lifted himself up to finish off Maul (this is apparent in his behavior immediately after this while talking to the dying Qui-gon), and his newfound aggression got him farther in the battle than the two of the Jedi had done up until that point. Had he not channeled his rage, Maul probably would have simply done him in with a cut from his blade shortly after the energy wall came down, because without the aggression he got from the anger at Qui-gon's death, he wasn't a good enough fighter to be able to win.

[Sponge-worthy]

Originally Posted by Musashi

You definitely have valid points here.

Part of the basis for the 2 rule was to avoid a drowned out talent pool: only the absolute best are admitted. Another part of the reasoning is to avoid detection.

Like some other villains, Sith do have illogical practices with underlying reasons. Bane must have known the Rule of 2 would create in-fighting, but it was also his belief that the strongest Sith were also the ones most likely to kill in their lust for power.

I'm still trying to fully understand it myself as I've a fanfic underway.

There are definitely problems with the 'Rule of 2' as a means to ensure the security of the Sith. For instance, what if master and apprentice are caught in the same natural disaster, explosion, or other catastrophe? No more Sith.

Also, there is a grapevine issue. Presumably, such a 'Rule of 2' relies upon a system of oral tradition to pass down the Sith legacy from one member to the next. However, oral tradition is notoriously flawed in the accuracy to which information is replicated: one person tells a story to another, who repeats to another, and so on. Things always get cloudy, exaggerated, etc. So, the Sith's teachings about how to develop Force abilities, what the Sith actually is, its history, and its relationship to the Jedi would all likely degrade over time.

Basically, this 'Rule of 2' thing's intent is the perpetuation of Sith for all time. Yet in practice, the 'Rule of 2' puts all the Sith's proverbial eggs in a single basket. So for your fanfic, you would need to develop some sort of contingency plan should the Rule of 2 fail. Or, like the star wars wiki thing I read, just have Sith lords ignore it when convenient. Or, just flip it around completely: that there's a widely held belief that the Sith observe a 'Rule of 2,' and the Jedi believe that. But really it's just a ruse for the Sith to conceal their numbers.

[The Dragon]

Originally Posted by Monkey Boy

... Oh, and Vader was a Sith Lord; the same as Maul and Dooku.

And killed far more JEDI than the others.

Did anyone else notice the point I made about Yoda sensing something about Palpatine?

[groove93]

Originally Posted by The Dragon

And killed far more JEDI than the others.

Did anyone else notice the point I made about Yoda sensing something about Palpatine?

Yes and I elaborated on that point as well.

[Monkey_Boy]

I can't really argue with anything said in your response to me, groove93. I agree with everything, and even add that the boys and I believe that it was Palps who was behind Anakin's mother being taken by the Sand People. (They had no reason to hold her except to affect Anakin through The Force.) I only disagree that Palps planned for Obi-Wan to be his Master for any reason. He had no control over anything that actually went on in the Jedi Council, he could only manipulate and make suggestions which the Council sometimes gave in to (when he suggested that Anakin protect Padme) or outright refused (when he wanted Anakin to fight Greivous). However, both of these decisions came out exactly the way he wanted them to (seperating Anakin from Obi and getting him emotionally confused with Padme & making him feel like a pile of puke when the JC decided against his going to fight the General). Gotta love that evil genius!

Originally Posted by Afrobean

The look on his face, him yelling "no!", say otherwise. Just look at his body language before facing Maul compared to Qui-gon's own body language before facing Maul. Qui-gon takes a meditative stance and waits calmly for the energy wall to come down. Obi-wan stands there and looks really pissed off, then when the wall comes down, he is visibly more aggressive. His strikes are harder and faster than before, and he makes use of a kick to catch Maul off-guard, something I don't think a Jedi ever does in any other instance.

So if you saw your Master cut down in front of you, you'd still have Qui-gon's zen-like calmness? He was still an APPRENTICE! This was a man who hadn't EVER fought a Sith before. If anything, he let his training kick in and every quick move of his was instinct. I just went downstairs and watched the scene, and that kick was to get Maul back after he sliced his saber in half. It was more defensive than it was aggresive because it wasn't followed up with an attack to take advantage of Maul's off-guardness!

Had he not channeled his rage, Maul probably would have simply done him in with a cut from his blade shortly after the energy wall came down, because without the aggression he got from the anger at Qui-gon's death, he wasn't a good enough fighter to be able to win.

Channeling rage is a Sith attribute and Obi-wan never did this. Watch it again. That's a look of determination. Not anger. When he's with Qui afterwards, there's no anger, only sadness for his lost Master.

As for the question, why didn't Maul cut Obi like he cut Anakin? He wasn't expecting it. He had just kicked Obi's saber into the pit and apparently didn't even consider his taking Qui's. I like to think that really pissed off look on his face is that he can sense a tremor in The Force, but doesn't know what it is until it's too late. It's logical to assume that after this, Obi-Wan went and learned how to defend himself against such an attack. (My friends and I also consider this to be why Vader just throws his saber at Luke in ROTJ instead of jumping up at him- the last time he jumped up after a foe, he lost his arm and legs!)

[DealsR4theDevil]

Originally Posted by GeneD5

Here's another point for discussion:

Obi-Wan gets his a$$ handed to himself everytime he encounters Dooku (end of epII as well as the beginning of epIII) and Anakin is the one who ends up taking Dooku out, and quite easily at that. But, at the end of epIII Obi-Wan not only duels out out big time with Anakin, but takes Anakin down. So Obi-Wan clearly can't take Dooku down, but can take down the guy who takes Dooku down...the math doesn't add up.

If rock beats scissors, and scissors beat paper, why then does rock not beat paper

[Sylin]

Some questions maybe some of you SW lore gurus can answer...

1.) From what I understand reading SW comics and books at a kid, "Sith" and "Jedi" are basically just religions whose followers utilize the Force. Jedi are very monastic and selfless, whereas Sith are mystics who lust for power. Hence why Obi Wan says Sith speak in absolutes--you're either powerful, or you're weak; you either dominate, or be enslaved. Jedi are more in the middle--it's not that they refute emotions, just that they need to control them. Didn't some character say that emotions can betray you? Just as well, they can help you, if they are spun positively. Would this be an accurate assessment? I think it sorta explains what Monkey and Afro are debating, because it's balancing both sides of the same coin.

2.) I always thought the Rule of 2 was implemented because when the Sith numbered in the thousands, they fought themselves more than the Jedi, and thus impeded their own greater plans for domination. As such, I thought that there can be more than one Sith Lord and Apprentice, but they do not intermingle (it's a big galaxy, after all), correct?

3.) If that's not true, and there IS always 1 lord and 1 apprentice, then it would stand to reason that not all "dark Jedi" are Sith, right? A lot of the comics and books I read seemed to describe Sith as being Force users who augment their power with dark magic and follow a very strict discipline/religion, like a certain path that SOME dark Jedi would adhere to. True?

@ryan69969: About the Rule of 2 causing problems if both Sith were to die... I vaguely recall an older SW comic where a young boy discovered a Sith temple and used the sorcery books he found there to teach himself the ways of the Sith, to eventually became a master. Just as the Jedi have temples, schools, archives, the Sith probably have them, too.

[Sponge-worthy]

Originally Posted by Sylin

@ryan69969: About the Rule of 2 causing problems if both Sith were to die... I vaguely recall an older SW comic where a young boy discovered a Sith temple and used the sorcery books he found there to teach himself the ways of the Sith, to eventually became a master. Just as the Jedi have temples, schools, archives, the Sith probably have them, too.

So...the Sith presumably contract out to a temp agency to staff these institutions?

I'm just kidding and speculating, really. All I know from the mythos is what has been in the films.

[Batman1980]

There are rarely more than 2 Sith because of their nature. There were a lot of them a long time ago but there was a lot of infighting and they wiped most of each other out. That's why they have the rule of 2, even if it isn't always followed.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by Musashi

Simple answer: think Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Originally Posted by DealsR4theDevil

If rock beats scissors, and scissors beat paper, why then does rock not beat paper

[The Dragon]

Originally Posted by groove93

Yes and I elaborated on that point as well.

Sorry groove93, just went back and read those comments. I picked up on

[Show spoiler]Palpatine

being the Emperor when first viewed The Phantom Menace. That was without knowing any of the back story. I remember viewing and was like..." That's the dude that's gonna become the Emperor!"