Nature's Journey - BD with 37Mbps VC-1 Encode 96kHz/24bit DTS-HD Master Audio - Oct 9

[blitz6speed]

Originally Posted by RBFilms

I noticed that two (2) threads I was involved in where I was trying to discuss Nature's Journey ... got shut down. It appears most folks can bash each other...but it got shut down about six (6) posts after someone called a well known poster an HD-DVD Fanboy. Do you think the mods are getting PM's to shut down the forum when this happens? The response was lightning fast.

It is a Public Secret that microsoft sponcers AVS with $$$, so im sure they have their own people moderating the forum and making the "AVS Moderators" delete stuff under their names to hide it all. Seriously, why do you bother with those guys? They dont care about top quality at all, we do!

Ive got this ordered and i have Chronos. I love what you do for me (and this is not in regards to toyota!)!

[RBFilms]

Really? I had no idea....it all starts to make sense now....

Originally Posted by blitz6speed

It is a Public Secret that microsoft sponcers AVS with $$$, so im sure they have their own people moderating the forum and making the "AVS Moderators" delete stuff under their names to hide it all. Seriously, why do you bother with those guys? They dont care about top quality at all, we do!

Ive got this ordered and i have Chronos. I love what you do for me (and this is not in regards to toyota!)!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by RBFilms

Can anyone help me understand why the forum operates this way?

Well some people donate upwards of $10,000 - $15,000(in terms of winning bids) during charity auctions sponsored by AVM$ on their last Home Theater Cruise........or so I was told.

That may make a difference when it comes to "operations".

[RBFilms]

This sheds light on things for me...

No wonder threads get closed that I am involved in when certain people show up ...

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well some people donate upwards of $10,000 - $15,000(in terms of winning bids) during charity auctions sponsored by AVM$ on their last Home Theater Cruise........or so I was told.

That may make a difference when it comes to "operations".

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by RBFilms

This sheds light on things for me...

No wonder threads get closed that I am involved in when certain people show up ...

Yeah, over there always seems come down to:

(1) You must agree that every encoding on HD DVD will be indistinguishable to that on Blu-ray no matter what the codec or bit-rate, unless the codec on Blu-ray is MPEG-2 in which case you must admit the HD DVD version must be better.

(2) TrueHD rocks. Why didn't you use TrueHD?! TrueHD is Blu-ray's weakness. What are you, nuts?!

Oh ... a bandwidth issue? DD+ 1.5Mbps rocks. Why didn't you use DD+ 1.5Mbps? DD+ 1.5Mbps is Blu-ray's weakness. What are you, nuts?

(3) We love your support unless you imply any advantage for Blu-ray, in which case we'll make it our mission to try to dissect every word you say in an attempt to get you to admit you're wrong, or drive you away.

And of course:

(4) I'm a Microsoft employee involved with codecs. Therefore, I am right and you are wrong.

[dialog_gvf]

Oh, congrats on the upcoming release.

I've been looking forward to it since it was originally announced.

Gary

[RBFilms]

This made me laugh.....thanks..!!

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Yeah, over there always seems come down to:

(1) You must agree that every encoding on HD DVD will be indistinguishable to that on Blu-ray no matter what the codec or bit-rate, unless the codec on Blu-ray is MPEG-2 in which case you must admit the HD DVD version must be better.

(2) TrueHD rocks. Why didn't you use TrueHD?! TrueHD is Blu-ray's weakness. What are you, nuts?!

Oh ... a bandwidth issue? DD+ 1.5Mbps rocks. Why didn't you use DD+ 1.5Mbps? DD+ 1.5Mbps is Blu-ray's weakness. What are you, nuts?

(3) We love your support unless you imply any advantage for Blu-ray, in which case we'll make it our mission to try to dissect every word you say in an attempt to get you to admit you're wrong, or drive you away.

And of course:

(4) I'm a Microsoft employee involved with codecs. Therefore, I am right and you are wrong.

[L or S of Perfect?]

The funny thing is, one of their excuses is that RB is "biased" in favor of blu-ray, and makes the HD side look bad because of that bias.

Guess what:

- Chronos didn't work properly at first with the ps3

- he had problems getting BD-J to work with ALL blu-ray players, therefore delaying Nature's Journey by a month

- RB felt that HD-MA was the best audio for the blu-ray release, even though a lot of blu-ray enthusists felt otherwise.

Do you see blu-ray fans getting crazy insulting RBfilms, making accusatory remarks, snide comments, etc? Then they claim that he has a bias against their format... If people were slinging that type of mud at me, you'd be crazy to think I wouldn't have a "bias" against them. Worse, you have a MS vice president, who directly attacks, accuses, & disputes what he's saying, which only stirs the pot more. You challenge and call upon one party to present their evidence, but don't bring your own? How professional is that?

I fully support RB's work, but if it comes down to the best business decision being not releasing on either blu-ray or hd dvd, then that's what he has to do. The only small thing that I can do is buy & enjoy his releases & hope he continues releases.

Items not yet shipped:
Delivery estimate: October 22, 2007 - October 26, 2007
1 of: Chronos [Blu-ray]
Sold by: Amazon.com, LLC
1 of: Nature's Journey [Blu-ray]
Sold by: Amazon.com, LLC

[lokus]

I would like to see side by side comparisons of the HD-DVD and Blu-ray versions of Nature's Journey to see if the bandwidth limitations of HD-DVD have any effect on the quality of the film.

RBFilms,
Can you comment on this? Is there any noticeable difference in quality due to the differing bitrates?

[RBFilms]

First, thank you for your support and the purchase of our products.

All true and a logical argument if you were dealing with open minded, grounded, sane, and logical people. I tried making some of these points as well. However, these truths and this logic was completely lost on this crowd.

Many of the arguments at AVS are very emotional and severely lacking in substance nor do they have any basis in fact as they are based on twisted interpretations of a few words from an entire post.

To make matters worse, the arguments are started, driven, and fueled by the slanted and distorted opinions of a few instigators ... perhaps whose job it is to discredit anyone they consider a threat for some reason or anyone who says anything contrary to any MS employee.

It is very frustrating for me to have any discussion with anyone who is closed minded based on a personal agenda they have. With others, it is difficult to accept what they say if it is not based on some experience, sound reasoning, and intelligent thought. Very frustrating indeed.

Originally Posted by L or S of Perfect?

The funny thing is, one of their excuses is that RB is "biased" in favor of blu-ray, and makes the HD side look bad because of that bias.

Guess what:

- Chronos didn't work properly at first with the ps3

- he had problems getting BD-J to work with ALL blu-ray players, therefore delaying Nature's Journey by a month

- RB felt that HD-MA was the best audio for the blu-ray release, even though a lot of blu-ray enthusists felt otherwise.

Do you see blu-ray fans getting crazy insulting RBfilms, making accusatory remarks, snide comments, etc? Then they claim that he has a bias against their format... If people were slinging that type of mud at me, you'd be crazy to think I wouldn't have a "bias" against them. Worse, you have a MS vice president, who directly attacks, accuses, & disputes what he's saying, which only stirs the pot more. You challenge and call upon one party to present their evidence, but don't bring your own? How professional is that?

I fully support RB's work, but if it comes down to the best business decision being not releasing on either blu-ray or hd dvd, then that's what he has to do. The only small thing that I can do is buy & enjoy his releases & hope he continues releases.

Items not yet shipped:
Delivery estimate: October 22, 2007 - October 26, 2007
1 of: Chronos [Blu-ray]
Sold by: Amazon.com, LLC
1 of: Nature's Journey [Blu-ray]
Sold by: Amazon.com, LLC

[alain turgeon]

Hi Richard,first i'd like to thank you for your insights,i find very interesting that someone who's actually in the business take the time to explain how he does what he does. After reading you i had no choice but to order both chronos and nature's journey. By the way are these titles subtiled,i am frenchspeaking and though i understand english most of my family and friends don't. Thanks again.

[RBFilms]

My goal with this release was to maximize PQ and make HD and BD as close as possible in this area. I figured I would be tarred and feathered if the PQ was different.

We find that AVC and VC-1 start reaching the point of diminishing returns around 24mbps to 26mbps. Most compression techs at the best HD / BD Authoring labs seems to agree with this by the way.

I try not to offer my opinion on whether or not there is a difference...as we have the luxury of seeing the source verses the final output and watching on reference equipment....and knowing where to look and what to look for.

Also, if I was to say anything that people do not agree with ... I would probably be tortured slowly and painfully, to my death. People from AVS list posts out of this forum and post them there. I have to be very careful about what I say...regardless if it is true and especially if they see it as my opinion.

Maybe I should set-up an event where I could invite people to see and hear the same thing I do? Show and tell so to speak. However, I am sure that would just make matters worse.

It a hopeless situation ... but it is what it is and there is nothing I can do to change it. However, we will release our Ultimate HD / BD Disc with all sorts of Audio / Video Presentations that will allow people to compare different Audio / Video encode formats and rates for themselves. If this does not enlighten people, I do not know what else will.

Originally Posted by lokus

I would like to see side by side comparisons of the HD-DVD and Blu-ray versions of Nature's Journey to see if the bandwidth limitations of HD-DVD have any effect on the quality of the film.

RBFilms,
Can you comment on this? Is there any noticeable difference in quality due to the differing bitrates?

[GregBlu5]

I first saw Chronos in IMAX; and I've subsequently owned it on laserdisk, regular DVD, and it was also my very first Blu-ray purchase. I've shown it twice already to three people, to give them an idea of how great a Sony Hi-Def TV and Sony Blu-ray player can look since it all got set up this past Thursday. I cannot tell you how much of an significant improvement it is on Blu and on my new TV. It was almost like watching the show for the very first time.

I'll order Nature's Journey now.

-Greg

[Dogdvr]

Rich, I was on your website today and saw Animusic, I know you have talked about this, but I have searched and can't find it. (must have been on avs)
any plans for a BD release?
OH I forgot I want only tones ( I don't listen to music, Only tones) and besides I have it on good authority that tones can be reproduced bit for bit
LOL

[krinkle]

Originally Posted by RBFilms

I think this makes the 3rd one now...that got locked...and we are close to a 4th. The HD-DVD Folks are upset because I posted the fact that I sell more BD.

Funny thing is they get twisted over simple facts like this...I really do not get it..

Richard, Just placed my pre-order on Amazon.

I will support any studio, no matter how small, that puts as much time and effort into making a great product as you guys obviously do.

[Amel]

hey

you are not alone Richard, many of us moved from the AVS section

its just a mess up there, you feel much more home here

congrats on your HiDef disc

[hollywoodguy]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Yeah, over there always seems come down to:

(1) You must agree that every encoding on HD DVD will be indistinguishable to that on Blu-ray no matter what the codec or bit-rate, unless the codec on Blu-ray is MPEG-2 in which case you must admit the HD DVD version must be better.

(2) TrueHD rocks. Why didn't you use TrueHD?! TrueHD is Blu-ray's weakness. What are you, nuts?!

Oh ... a bandwidth issue? DD+ 1.5Mbps rocks. Why didn't you use DD+ 1.5Mbps? DD+ 1.5Mbps is Blu-ray's weakness. What are you, nuts?

(3) We love your support unless you imply any advantage for Blu-ray, in which case we'll make it our mission to try to dissect every word you say in an attempt to get you to admit you're wrong, or drive you away.

And of course:

(4) I'm a Microsoft employee involved with codecs. Therefore, I am right and you are wrong.

This seriously cracked me up. It's a 100,000 threads in a nutshell.

[scott1256ca]

RBFilms:

You asked why AVS does what they do, and why threads get closed quickly.

I believe, but have no proof, that they do organize to get posts removed and deleted. Their format is losing and they are desperate. I also believe a certain insider helps coordinate some of it.

kjack has indicated that he has received PMs, probably by mistake, discussing what to post, how to ask questions etc. in order to cast BD in a bad light, or cast HD DVD in a good light. Or at least that was the gist of his post.

When they, meaning the HD DVD fanatics, see a post disparaging their format, or claiming BD has some superiority to HD DVD, they go on the attack. When the target of the attack fights back, they complain to the mods, who then remove the "offending" posts or lock the thread. BD people are not nearly so organized, so do not en masse complain when the HD DVD fanboys get personal. Therefore, their posts do not get deleted or their threads do not get locked.

That Amir makes statements that DD+ is transparent to the master is ludicrous. But mostly it shows his undying devotion to his companies format of choice. He started by disparaging BD for not making lossless codecs mandatory on players about a year ago. Then when they discovered that HD DVD doesn't have the bandwidth or space to do lossless audio, PiP, and high bit rate encodes, they fall back to the DD+ transparency nonsense.

You are wasting your time arguing with Amir. He may not actually believe what he posts, but he won't stop posting it. It furthers his agenda. That is all that seems to matter. Truth seems to have very little to do with it. I don't know if his minions are paid or have just bought into his posts, but they do seem in need of some serious deprogramming.

Enough of my rant. I think I'll go put in an order for Natures Journey now.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by RBFilms

We find that AVC and VC-1 start reaching the point of diminishing returns around 24mbps to 26mbps. Most compression techs at the best HD / BD Authoring labs seems to agree with this by the way.

Would you say that point of diminishing returns shifts depending on the material and the Aspect ratio? Take the recent release from Lionsgate "The Condemned" for example. The compression tech seemed to feel the need to allow the bit rate drift above 40mbps at points in the movie where there was a lot of action all over the frame and it was presented in 1.78:1. In titles with a wider aspect ratio and possibly more parts of the frame with little or no motion, you are probably going to be able to get away with a lower bitrate.

I think a lot of how much is needed has to do with the aspect ratio as a strip of black is going to be quite compressible.

[gand41f]

Originally Posted by aristotles

I think a lot of how much is needed has to do with the aspect ratio as a strip of black is going to be quite compressible.

Not to derail the thread, but I have a totally unrelated question that maybe someone can answer since there are a lot of experts here regarding video encoding.

As I understand, anamorphic widescreen DVDs ("enhanced for widescreen") basically attempt to use the entire bandwidth for 1.78:1 video, instead of having black bars at top of bottom and encoding it at 1.33:1. However, if the black bars are quite compressible, why is this a big deal? People swear by anamorphic and hate letterbox.

If it is indeed a big deal, why didn't the manufacturers add an anamorphic option for Blu-ray and HD DVD since many movies are actually 2.35:1 or wider?

thanks
gandalf