Fantastic Four (2015)

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I don't think you're a racist but I do think you fear change. Maybe in society, maybe not, but definitely in adaptations. This movie is not going to be a Fantastic Four comic book. It is its own thing and changing some stuff up from the previous movies and source material is a good idea. What matters in the end is that it's a good movie, and diversity along with more interesting family dynamics can help make that happen.

I argued this in defense of how different the X-Men movies are compared to the comics, but in this Fantastic Four case, I do have an issue with the changes made -- but it's not simply because Johnny is now black. It's because every decision Josh Trank was making from the beginning was based around Michael B. Jordan in the Human Torch role and all casting, characters, and story changes (ie Susan being adopted) revolved around that.

Besides that, he wants to go realistically grounded and gritty. This is not Batman! It's the Fantastic Four! I appreciate that they are not going silly and campy, but if any comic concept should be larger than life and fantastic, it's this! Trank is not making a Fantastic Four movie for fans, he's making a movie for himself and his buddy, Jordan, and cashing in on the Fantastic Four name.

Originally Posted by Infernal King

Your arguments are simple. Where is the complexity that I'm missing? And only really hardcore white fanboys (the majority of the [older] comic book reading demographic) are getting up in arms about this.

Are there any actual black people on this board who would like to chime in with their thoughts? And no, I don't want a "my best friend/co-worker/garbage man is black" anecdote.

I don't think either of us want to go down that path again. But if you think there are not any older comic book fans, that happen to be black, that are not opposed the racebending of Johnny Storm, you are mistaken. Traditionalists come in all colors. As it's been said before, no one wants a white Luke Cage or a white Blade either.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

I argued this in defense of how different the X-Men movies are compared to the comics, but in this Fantastic Four case, I do have an issue with the changes made -- but it's not simply because Johnny is now black. It's because every decision Josh Trank was making from the beginning was based around Michael B. Jordan in the Human Torch role and all casting, characters, and story changes (ie Susan being adopted) revolved around that.

Besides that, he wants to go realistically grounded and gritty. This is not Batman! It's the Fantastic Four! I appreciate that they are not going silly and campy, but if any comic concept should be larger than life and fantastic, it's this! Trank is not making a Fantastic Four movie for fans, he's making a movie for himself and his buddy, Jordan, and cashing in on the Fantastic Four name.

Hypothetically, what would you do if the trailer came out and proved you wrong? What kind of penance for all the complaining would you be willing to undergo?

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Infernal King

Hypothetically, what would you do if the trailer came out and proved you wrong? What kind of penance for all the complaining would you be willing to undergo?

After Iron Man 3, I've learned not to take trailers at face value anymore, no matter how hype I feel watching them. But... if the movie proves to be great, and it is a version of Fantastic Four that I can accept, I will certainly make a public apology to Trank and Jordan.

But in all honesty, I don't see that happening, because my standards are high when it come to what I think a Fantastic Four movie should be, and I don't think Fox ever gave enough of a budget to back up the concept, which should be epic-level adventures about a cosmically-induced superpowered family. And my standard for Dr. Doom is even higher.

[xander]

I think there's a lot of people who even if they do like it would never admit it because they spent so many man hours trashing it and complaining that a black guy is ruining their childhood memories.

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by xander

I think there's a lot of people who even if they do like it would never admit it because they spent so many man hours trashing it and complaining that a black guy is ruining their childhood memories.

It's not the black guy who's ruining it. It's the white guy directing it who's ruining it.

[Comicman494]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

It's not the black guy who's ruining it. It's the white guy directing it who's ruining it.

You're just avoiding his main point, which is entirely true. No one will admit to liking this if they do, after spending so much time trashing it. I'd be surprised if anyone even allows themselves to like it. Most will go in determined to hate it.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by xander

I think there's a lot of people who even if they do like it would never admit it because they spent so many man hours trashing it and complaining that a black guy is ruining their childhood memories.

Who's the black guy?

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Comicman494

You're just avoiding his main point, which is entirely true. No one will admit to liking this if they do, after spending so much time trashing it. I'd be surprised if anyone even allows themselves to like it. Most will go in determined to hate it.

No one does not equal me. I'll admit to liking it, if I'm turned around on it. I'm going to critically nitpick it all the way through, but in the end, if the good outweighs the bad, I'll say how I truly feel about it with no problem.

Of course, you'll all have to wait for the home download release before you hear my review, because I refuse to see this in the theatre. That's one stand I will take against it. Same goes for Sony's Sinister Six movie.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by xander

I think there's a lot of people who even if they do like it would never admit it because they spent so many man hours trashing it and complaining that a black guy is ruining their childhood memories.

This sums up the entire thread so much more succinctly than I ever could have. Kudos!

Darkstream, I usually enjoy reading your posts and have seen you offer some good insight across the forum. That's why I'm always frustrated when you obsessively and sometimes even creepily (Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman... that entire debacle still makes me cringe) latch onto the casting of an actor/actress you don't like and will absolutely not stop posting about how much you hate that choice, even though it's the same complaint worded the same way over and over. If you would exercise some self restraint and limit your objections to only a dozen posts or so, then you'd be golden, baby.

All that being said, please give Dr. Doom back to Marvel, Fox.

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Infernal King

This sums up the entire thread so much more succinctly than I ever could have. Kudos!

Darkstream, I usually enjoy reading your posts and have seen you offer some good insight across the forum. That's why I'm always frustrated when you obsessively and sometimes even creepily (Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman... that entire debacle still makes me cringe) latch onto the casting of an actor/actress you don't like and will absolutely not stop posting about how much you hate that choice, even though it's the same complaint worded the same way over and over. If you would exercise some self restraint and limit your objections to only a dozen posts or so, then you'd be golden, baby.

All that being said, please give Dr. Doom back to Marvel, Fox.

When I post, I'm not just posting for you, Man. Consider that we have forum members, sometimes even new members, who come in and out of these discussions, and have the same discussions over and over again. Just because I tend to repeat myself when I continue a conversation with someone else that I happen to have had before with you, doesn't mean I'm obsessive or creepy -- it just means I have convictions that I stand by -- convictions that you don't like and you're the one obsessing over.

[Moviefan2k4]

For those who either missed or ignored the video I posted a few days ago, here it is in a nutshell...

The main reason I'm sick of properties being drastically changed is because most often, doing so adds nothing to the story. It is done for arbitrary reasons like pandering to a particular demographic, as if that group would never watch the film otherwise. There's no point to changing it, but instead of leaving it the same, they switch it to be more "inclusive"...without any data suggesting various groups will avoid a film based on a lack of them being represented. It all adds up to studios and such creating spiteful divisions where none previously exist.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

When I post, I'm not just posting for you, Man. Consider that we have forum members, sometimes even new members, who come in and out of these discussions, and have the same discussions over and over again. Just because I tend to repeat myself when I continue a conversation with someone else that I happen to have had before with you, doesn't mean I'm obsessive or creepy -- it just means I have convictions that I stand by -- convictions that you don't like and you're the one obsessing over.

Seriously? This is such a flimsy defense - all of it - and I really expected better from you.

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Infernal King

Seriously? This is such a flimsy defense - all of it - and I really expected better from you.

That's because, despite how much I'm willing to repeat myself with arguments and criticisms about movies, I'm not willing to waste more words with you over and over again about how you disapprove of my point of view.

Why do I have to defend myself with just you? Why is it that you had to bring up the Gal Gadot thing (which I haven't said much about in a long time), just to throw it in my face again that you think I'm creepy and obsessive?

You say you respect or like a lot of my posts, that they're insightful or whatever, but that's just a backhanded compliment, while you try to bring me down with the things you don't agree with me on. I'm not here to be your "golden" boy. I'm here to discuss the things I love, like, dislike or downright hate. None of us are going to see eye to eye on everything -- that's why we have a forum -- to discuss and debate! But you... you like to get personal with people and make more out of things than they really are. A difference of opinion and traditional view point when it comes to pre-existing iconic characters does not make someone a racist. Nor should I or anyone have to feel that need to defend themselves just because you want to act or look like the spokesperson for a perfect politically correct world.

I told you I didn't want to go down this path with you, and yet you're obviously trying to egg me on. What's the matter? Lonely on a Friday night?

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by darkstream

a difference of opinion and traditional view point when it comes to pre-existing iconic characters does not make someone a racist. Nor should i or anyone have to feel that need to defend themselves just because you want to act or look like the spokesperson for a perfect politically correct world.

Amen!!!

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

It is done for arbitrary reasons like pandering to a particular demographic, as if that group would never watch the film otherwise.

Is there any specific reason to believe Josh Trank's casting decision was motivated for an arbitrary reason like pandering to a particular demographic?

Couldn't he have simply liked working Michael B Jordan and thought he'd be good in the part? If nothing else, that seems like a perfectly reasonable counter-theory, doesn't it?

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by Darkstream

That's because, despite how much I'm willing to repeat myself with arguments and criticisms about movies, I'm not willing to waste more words with you over and over again about how you disapprove of my point of view.

Why do I have to defend myself with just you? Why is it that you had to bring up the Gal Gadot thing (which I haven't said much about in a long time), just to throw it in my face again that you think I'm creepy and obsessive?

You say you respect or like a lot of my posts, that they're insightful or whatever, but that's just a backhanded compliment, while you try to bring me down with the things you don't agree with me on. I'm not here to be your "golden" boy. I'm here to discuss the things I love, like, dislike or downright hate. None of us are going to see eye to eye on everything -- that's why we have a forum -- to discuss and debate! But you... you like to get personal with people and make more out of things than they really are. A difference of opinion and traditional view point when it comes to pre-existing iconic characters does not make someone a racist. Nor should I or anyone have to feel that need to defend themselves just because you want to act or look like the spokesperson for a perfect politically correct world.

I told you I didn't want to go down this path with you, and yet you're obviously trying to egg me on. What's the matter? Lonely on a Friday night?

Wow, you really went berserk here.

Friendly piece of advice: If you post something on the internet, don't expect it will get a free pass and you won't have to defend it. You can say whatever you want and I - and anyone else - can respond to it however I/we want.

Watching someone unstable have a meltdown at his keyboard is decent Friday afternoon entertainment, though.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by octagon

Is there any specific reason to believe Josh Trank's casting decision was motivated for an arbitrary reason like pandering to a particular demographic?

Couldn't he have simply liked working Michael B Jordan and thought he'd be good in the part? If nothing else, that seems like a perfectly reasonable counter-theory, doesn't it?

If that had been the only change, maybe...but then he went and cast all 20-somethings for the characters, drastically redesigned their backstories, and from what I've seen so far, bastardized Dr. Doom more than Tim Story ever did.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

If that had been the only change, maybe...but then he went and cast all 20-somethings for the characters, drastically redesigned their backstories, and from what I've seen so far, bastardized Dr. Doom more than Tim Story ever did.

And you think all of these decisions are motivated by a desire to pander to a particular demographic?

Which demographic is that?

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by octagon

And you think all of these decisions are motivated by a desire to pander to a particular demographic?

Which demographic is that?

I think there's multiple demographics, but in general, anyone who's politically correct in their thinking. There's tons of other characters which have existed for decades, that are black, white, young, old, male, female, etc. Changing them to "fix" some perceived hostility where none exists is right out of the "PC-101" handbook.

[Darkstream]

Originally Posted by Infernal King

Wow, you really went berserk here.

Friendly piece of advice: If you post something on the internet, don't expect it will get a free pass and you won't have to defend it. You can say whatever you want and I - and anyone else - can respond to it however I/we want.

Watching someone unstable have a meltdown at his keyboard is decent Friday afternoon entertainment, though.

Like I said, you like to make more out of things than they really are.

Not berserk. Not unstable. No meltdown. Just telling you like it is.