SPECTRE Review Thread

[duggie walker]

Originally Posted by Todd Tomorrow

You truly are making a meal of this supposed "Exclusive" for some attention seeking and name dropping, aren't you?

You also appear to be unfamiliar with some basics of the series lose continuity. When has Bond ever have to be killed off to be replaced ? Why would it have to be made "impossible" for Craig to reappear?

Also as far as I'm concerned, on the Internet everybody is a dick until proven otherwise.

Well you're pretty much Exhibit A for that theory. You insist on a source, and then when I try to accommodate, you accuse me of name-dropping? That's pretty dickish, for sure. At least in this case, we'll soon have definitive proof which one of us is the dick. I wonder if you'll have the grace to apologise? I doubt it.

I don't mind that you and Gamma Winstead don't believe me but do you both have to be so nasty and insulting about it? I've worked in film, theatre and TV in the UK for nearly thirty years and it really isn't that odd that I should have come into contact with some of these people. I'm not claiming to be best mates with any of them. I was, myself, rather surprised that the "source" in question was so indiscreet during what was a brief conversation about an unrelated work issue.

I hear quite a lot of "insider" information but almost never mention it here, despite your accusation that I'm an "attention seeker". I made an exception for this only because I'm a Bond fan and I thought other Bond fans would get a kick out of it; and also because I thought it would be amusing to break such a big story on a small forum like this one. I thought people enjoyed a bit of "inside" info now and then. Clearly I was wrong.

It is quite funny, I suppose, to see you ridicule the information so authoritatively, given its source. From the arrogant tone of both of you, I suspect what really riles you is realising that you are not as knowledgeable as you think you are; that, and some rather pathetic, misplaced envy.

Personally, I don't live in a world where I suspect people of posting complete garbage in the hope of some adulation from a few members of a home theatre forum. The fact that you're so ready (eager even) to believe such a thing says more about your need for attention than mine. It implies that doing just that has at least crossed your minds. And if you find it hard to believe that someone "connected" would be posting here, that's only because you imagine that - if you were "connected" in such a way - the first thing you'd do would be to stop conversing with "normal" people; preferring to spend your days in Monaco on a permanently-moored yacht, drinking champagne from the skulls of everyone who ever said you wouldn't do "shit" with your life.

Whether I was right or not to post this, what I've said here is completely true, regardless of what you (or I) may have read about contracts or script leaks. The use of the word "impossible" - as in "impossible" for Craig to return - is verbatim, not my invention. I don't know what it means either as it was not appropriate to push further. I note you haven't questioned the other information about Craig's knee injury: There was concern voiced that this means they've had to shoot some of the action scenes in smaller chunks, which may lead to SPECTRE being slightly more choppily-edited than they'd have liked. I hope not, as I'd really like to see Craig have two truly great Bonds to bookend his era.

Anyway, over to Wynt and Kidd for some more insults. Like Bond, I shall return, either to eat crow or to remind them of their rudeness.

[StingingVelvet]

I agree you don't have to be a dick to be skeptical.

[Jasonic]

Originally Posted by Todd Tomorrow

Also as far as I'm concerned, on the Internet everybody has a dick until proven otherwise.

fixed.

[Xenia]

Originally Posted by spectre08

The ONLY reason most people have for not wanting to give him the role is the color of his skin. What's that called again?

I agree with you on the age though, and we had that discussion a page back. I've come to terms with the next bond being a continuation of the current Bond, and maybe even a development. So age-wise that means Elba wouldn't be ruled out.

I think he's a great actor, but I'll repeat myself - I don't want a black James Bond. I also am not a racist. You can take my words however you want, I'm not afraid to state my opinion.

Yeah, maybe. But who wants an extremely old Bond? Craig has already gotten the "old dog, new tricks" treatment with Skyfall. In that film they explicitly looked at his age and asked if he was relevant ("it's a young man's game"). So, with Spectre Bond is even older. If they do a continuation of Craig's Bond it will just be "grandpa 007."

I'd just prefer if they recast young and did what they've always done - not worry about continuation because, frankly, it doesn't matter and fans really don't care. I'm a die hard Bond fan and I don't give a damn about continuation. Each film is its own adventure (aside from QOS) and that's what I like about the series.

[spectre08]

Originally Posted by Xenia

I think he's a great actor, but I'll repeat myself - I don't want a black James Bond. I also am not a racist. You can take my words however you want, I'm not afraid to state my opinion.

Why not? why does his skin color matter to you?

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by spectre08

If Idris Elba was white most people would be chomping at the bit to give him the role. The ONLY reason most people have for not wanting to give him the role is the color of his skin. What's that called again?

When it's because the skin color would break continuity it's a fair complaint. Unless it's a reboot recastings should not only be in the same gender/race category, but even try to match appearance to some degree.

If they reboot Bond again, or use the codename theory, then you could pull out the racist card.

[Elandyll]

Originally Posted by spectre08

Why not? why does his skin color matter to you?

Because of who the character is and how he was created?

There has been far too much White Washing (as in filling in a specific racial type with a white actor) in Hollywood already (and still to this day) to just feel that it's alright to do the opposite.

Craig to me was already very iffy actually (and still don't like him in the role) because he doesn't match who I see as James Bond.

Now, why couldn't we be happy with a spin off? What of the other 20ish 00's in MI6? Surely one of them could be of a different race right?
I'd be more than happy to see that happening on film (and Elba is a terrific actor).

As per the "leak" of Craig being on his last Bond... Well, we'll believe it when it's official I think
Nothing personal ... It's just the internet (to this day I remember a kid having persuaded 50%+ of our guild in Dark Age of Camelot that he was Tom Felton incognito playing with us).

[Jasonic]

Originally Posted by spectre08

If Idris Elba was white most people would be chomping at the bit to give him the role. The ONLY reason most people have for not wanting to give him the role is the color of his skin. What's that called again?

I feel the opposite is true. Elba is easily the most talked about for people wanting to be Bond. Yet, if he was white, would people be talking about him much? I don't think so. There are plenty of great British actors that could be a great Bond, yet they are all just quick passerby mentions unlike Elba that people can't stop talking about in relation to Bond. Why? Because he's black.

BTW, there is no opinion of whether such a thing is good or not, or whether he would be good or not, just stating a view is all.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by spectre08

Why not? why does his skin color matter to you?

Originally Posted by Jasonic

I feel the opposite is true. Elba is easily the most talked about for people wanting to be Bond. Yet, if he was white, would people be talking about him much? I don't think so. There are plenty of great British actors that could be a great Bond, yet they are all just quick passerby mentions unlike Elba that people can't stop talking about in relation to Bond. Why? Because he's black.

BTW, there is no opinion of whether such a thing is good or not, or whether he would be good or not, just stating a view is all.

Absolutely. Why make Bond black? What would the point be of that? It would be a total piece of gimmick casting and seeing as Bond was written and created to be a white man, then it would be no different than the controversial decisions made over the years to have white actors playing ethnic roles.

As I indicated before, being a white British male is who Bond is. It's how Fleming created him and, more importantly, while we can be as open minded as we want, a black British agent would occupy a much different place in the world in comparison to a white one. There are countries in this world where Bond would have to travel to, where anti-black racism is still openly practiced. Even the whole argument of James Bond being a lapdog to a dying colonial power takes on an entirely different meaning simply because of that man's skin colour. I do not recall anyone really kicking up a fuss over Felix Leiter or Moneypenny being cast with black actors, but Bond should remain a white British male.

[Xenia]

Originally Posted by spectre08

Why not? why does his skin color matter to you?

The short answer is - Ian Fleming.

That and I don't agree with the code name theory at all, so when I watch a Bond film, regardless of actor, I like to think it's the "same guy" (even when one is Sean Connery and the other is Pierce Brosnan, and they don't look too much alike). Obviously it's not realistic, given, ya know, the series began in 1962.

To me James Bond just isn't black, so I'd have a hard time accepting someone black as James Bond. That doesn't make me a racist, it just means I have an opinion.

As I have said before, I would also not want an American Bond.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

Absolutely. Why make Bond black? What would the point be of that? It would be a total piece of gimmick casting and seeing as Bond was written and created to be a white man, then it would be no different than the controversial decisions made over the years to have white actors playing ethnic roles.

As I indicated before, being a white British male is who Bond is. It's how Fleming created him and, more importantly, while we can be as open minded as we want, a black British agent would occupy a much different place in the world in comparison to a white one. There are countries in this world where Bond would have to travel to, where anti-black racism is still openly practiced. Even the whole argument of James Bond being a lapdog to a dying colonial power takes on an entirely different meaning simply because of that man's skin colour. I do not recall anyone really kicking up a fuss over Felix Leiter or Moneypenny being cast with black actors, but Bond should remain a white British male.

I've thought exactly the same thing about this issue, he'd have a hard time posing as an Eastern European or a Russian or whatever (not saying that makes those places automatically racist, but they ARE majority white populations). That said, the balance of power in the world has shifted away from those territories since the end of the Cold War (which Bond was most definitely a product of) so perhaps the reverse would apply to an agent who doesn't look arabic or oriental or black, although it could be argued that any intelligence service will always have more than just WASPs with cast-iron livers on their books.

And, as the wags always remind us, one of the central conceits about Bond is that he's the world's most famous spy which is in itself a bit of an oxymoron, so I guess a black Bond wouldn't be too much of a problem for me. The problem I'd have with Idris is that he's too damned old and he doesn't like this whole blockbuster merry-go-round anyway, he was scathing in his remarks about the Thor movies not too long ago.

[atfree]

I would be against a black (or Asian or Hispanic or Middle Eastern, etc) simply because it would be caving in to some politically correct mantra that we have to have a different ethnicity just to be diverse.

[antennahead]

Originally Posted by atfree

I would be against a black (or Asian or Hispanic or Middle Eastern, etc) simply because it would be caving in to some politically correct mantra that we have to have a different ethnicity just to be diverse.

I agree. I think the franchise should stick with Ian Fleming's original vision. Not doing so for the reasons you list is wrong, IMHO.

[spectre08]

1. Somebody find me a quote in one of his novels where Bond is mentioned as specifically being white. This argument has been brought up before, when Elba was first mentioned for the job, and people more invested than me said repeatedly that it's never specifically mentioned in any of the books, and as far as I know nobody ever proved otherwise.

2. I find it absolutely absurd to say it's inappropriate to cast a black actor in a white role because Hollywood has such a terrible history of casting white actors in colored roles. I can not possibly think of a dumber or more backwards rationalization.

[atfree]

Originally Posted by spectre08

1. Somebody find me a quote in one of his novels where Bond is mentioned as specifically being white. This argument has been brought up before, when Elba was first mentioned for the job, and people more invested than me said repeatedly that it's never specifically mentioned in any of the books, and as far as I know nobody ever proved otherwise.

2. I find it absolutely absurd to say it's inappropriate to cast a black actor in a white role because Hollywood has such a terrible history of casting white actors in colored roles. I can not possibly think of a dumber or more backwards rationalization.

Read Live and Let Die and then tell me Bond isn't white (Check out the title to Chapter 5). Also, From Russia with Love contains a long section about Smersh's dossier which contains a detailed description on Bond. And there are numerous references (Moonraker, Casino Royale, etc) to Bond looking like Hoagy Carmichael.

While we're at it, let's reboot Shaft with Jason Statham.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by spectre08

1. Somebody find me a quote in one of his novels where Bond is mentioned as specifically being white. This argument has been brought up before, when Elba was first mentioned for the job, and people more invested than me said repeatedly that it's never specifically mentioned in any of the books, and as far as I know nobody ever proved otherwise.

2. I find it absolutely absurd to say it's inappropriate to cast a black actor in a white role because Hollywood has such a terrible history of casting white actors in colored roles. I can not possibly think of a dumber or more backwards rationalization.

From the previously mentioned Chapter 5 of Live And Let Die, Mr. Big refers to Bond and Felix Leiter as "two white men". Thanks to atfree for the prompt.

[spectre08]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

From the previously mentioned Chapter 5 of Live And Let Die, Mr. Big refers to Bond and Felix Leiter as "two white men". Thanks to atfree for the prompt.

point taken.

although they also already cast a black man as Felix Leiter as well.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by spectre08

point taken.

although they also already cast a black man as Felix Leiter as well.

And as I said earlier, no one disputes having black actors cast as Felix or Moneypenny, just Bond himself.

[SethRex]

Originally Posted by spectre08

point taken.

although they also already cast a black man as Felix Leiter as well.

True, but to be fair, they were new iterations not tied down by already existing continuities as Casino Royale was a new continuity with Felix being a brand new iteration, same with MoneyPenney. Bond however is now an established character in this continuity and just casting him black in the next one when it's part of the continuity started in Royale would make no sense, unless for the next one they are again rebooting and starting a new continuity, in which case I'm okay with a Black Bond.

[spectre08]

Originally Posted by SethRex

True, but to be fair, they were new iterations not tied down by already existing continuities as Casino Royale was a new continuity with Felix being a brand new iteration, same with MoneyPenney. Bond however is now an established character in this continuity and just casting him black in the next one when it's part of the continuity started in Royale would make no sense, unless for the next one they are again rebooting and starting a new continuity, in which case I'm okay with a Black Bond.

the continuity issue is the only one where I get hung up. I do agree with the earlier poster about the age of Bond. Daniel Craig is getting a bit old for the job, and unless they change Bond's responsibilities at MI6 I can't see the character continuing on in this line of continuity for much longer.

Connery was Bond for 9 years and 6 films
Roger Moore was bond for 12 years and 7 films
Pierce Brosnan was bond for 7 years and 5 films

Daniel Craig has been bond for 9 years and 4 films, with 1 more under contract that's probably 2 or 3 years out.

It's absolutely time to reboot bond again. Though unfortunately by the time it happens, which will realistically be 2020 or so, Elba will be too old.