Star Trek: The Next Generation - Season 7 (1993-1994) / All Good Things (1994)

[Arch Stanton]

Originally Posted by DasRetroKid

Perhaps having offered both versions of each episode (OAR and reformatted 16:9 version) would have merited better sales (despite a larger up front cost by CBS). Kind of like how on TOS Blu Ray release you can watch either the updated with new effects version of each episode, or the original version.

Sadly we'll never know, though I'd hate to think this project "failed" due to two black bars. I think the cost of the sets may have had more to do with it.

Having now finished DS9, I'm quite sad TNG on Blu didn't prove worth investing in bringing DS9 to HD. A show I started off hating I ended up really loving, and felt sad when I hit the last episode.

90% of mainstream consumers are irritated by black bars undoubtedly, but I don't think it would actually account for the poor sales. Pricing and streaming would be the biggest offenders in that regard.

[Vandal Savage]

Originally Posted by Frank169

Is there possibly another (and IMHO) important reason that I find that's hardly if ever talked about because it apparently constitutes some kind of taboo?

I don't have all the sales figures but according to Maxwell Everett and his sources sales of Season One amounted to 5,730,000 $ while Season Five in contrast only yielded 430,000 $.

I read many attempts to explain this difference, including streaming cannibalization, disappointment with Season Two mastering and - seriously - fans getting broke and becoming unable to purchase the last seasons.

I think it the drop in sales was just a simple matter of consumer fatigue.

First season comes out and it's a huge deal, lots of stores are carrying it and there are good sales. Season two comes out six months later, and the response is more muted. Sale prices aren't as good. Fewer stores are carrying it. Pattern repeats.

Also note that the first couple of seasons weren't the strongest seasons of TNG, so a lot of people, even those who had already seen it, started getting bored with and later seasons weren't much of a priority.

Some other things might have played a part, like the shoddy work done on S2, people not liking the pillarboxing, some folks not liking the standalone releases of two-part episodes, which makes the season sets seem incomplete and a stealth way to bilk collectors.

But mostly I think it was just a gradual lack on consumer interest coupled with high prices.

[Geoff D]

Personally I think it was a lil' dab of everything, though the lack of widescreen is pretty ****ing far down the list. The pricing (rightly or wrongly), the lacklustre quality of the early seasons (as in, the writing), the technical boo-boos of both S1 and S2, the lack of cross-promotional advertising with STID because Paramount didn't want it, the lack of wider advertising in general, the standalone releases with exclusive content, the long two-year drip feed of seasons etc.

That last point in particular is why I think we're seeing so many complete sets debut on BD lately, as the market just doesn't seem to be there any more for a longer release pattern of (comparatively) expensive seasons. CBS might've been better off remastering the show in its entirety (correcting the flubs along the way) and doing a full boxset, but hey - hindsight's a hell of a thing.

[StingingVelvet]

Yeah I think it's a lot of things combined too. Also they're all on Netflix in the States, which is probably a big part of it. I can't tell you how many times people around me say they just Netflix everything, so why would they bother even looking for a disc of something on Netflix for years now.

I do think, price being too high or not, the full series box is something a lot of people wait for and want. They could have done that complete series box at Christmas for a higher price early on, like say $300 MSRP with a day one price around $170, and sold a lot of boxes.

[Havenbull]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I'd rather watch the DVDs of DS9 and Voyager if the BDs were cropped

Absurd

[Mighty Max]

Originally Posted by Havenbull

Absurd

Not at all.

[Frank169]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I'd rather watch the DVDs of DS9 and Voyager if the BDs were cropped, which would be the only way to make them 16:9.

Some cropping would be inevitable, but IIRC the later seasons of DS9 and Voyager were deliberately shot to make a 16:9 extraction possible, i.e. pretty much what they did with the Super35 camera format.

Other than that and regarding TNG the original widescreen extraction idea was to use the extra (unseen) areas left and right on the camera negatives (admittedly only works in closeup and other shots with no studio equipment cluttering these areas) or zoom into the image during panoramic shots (i.e. Bridge shots with a lot of overhead space at the top and a lot of "crotch space" at the bottom).

So just "zooming" into the 4:3 images was indeed something only an "idiot" could ask for (especially since such an idiot could do it with proper AV equipment himself with any existing 4:3 version), but such an "intelligent" widescreen version (because of image shifts in contrast to the 4:3 version) would have required a separate release.

[Geoff D]

They were? I heard that they experimented with something nearer a 1.66 extraction early on with DS9 but then abandoned it.

[KMFDMvsEnya]

No, he really wants everyone to drink the kool-aid of converting 4x3 composed content to 16x9. Didn't get a lot of traction over at AVS so now it has been brought here.

It is all daft.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Frank169

Some cropping would be inevitable, but IIRC the later seasons of DS9 and Voyager were deliberately shot to make a 16:9 extraction possible, i.e. pretty much what they did with the Super35 camera format.

Other than that and regarding TNG the original widescreen extraction idea was to use the extra (unseen) areas left and right on the camera negatives (admittedly only works in closeup and other shots with no studio equipment cluttering these areas) or zoom into the image during panoramic shots (i.e. Bridge shots with a lot of overhead space at the top and a lot of "crotch space" at the bottom).

So just "zooming" into the 4:3 images was indeed something only an "idiot" could ask for (especially since such an idiot could do it with proper AV equipment himself with any existing 4:3 version), but such an "intelligent" widescreen version (because of image shifts in contrast to the 4:3 version) would have required a separate release.

I mean, to be clear, the shows were composed by the directors and cinematographers for 4:3, and that is how they should always be presented. If CBS had any integrity they would never even consider altering other peoples' art to fill the screen, even if they could open the matte with no issues. That is a purist opinion, but I am very purist about art and artists' work.

That aside, starting from a point of me already not liking the goal, yes you could do a "smart" cropping/expanding/zooming mixture that would look better than simply using crop mode on your TV. And if the 4:3 versions were also available (like Battlestar Galactica for example) then hey, buy what you want. However I just disagree with the entire process and find it unsettling, and we already have examples of the widescreen alterations being the only available releases (X-Files, The Wire), and it's only going to get worse as people like yourself push the issue and create a new VHS style era of crops and alterations, even to scope movies (which is already starting with many streaming/cable movies).

[Frank169]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

They were? I heard that they experimented with something nearer a 1.66 extraction early on with DS9 but then abandoned it.

I wasn't aware of that "early on" (admittedly, a 1.66:1 or 14:9 extraction would be better than a 1.78:1 or 16:9 extraction), but here are the origins of TNG in HD: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thread...-in-hd.263383/

Why Robert Meyer Burnett spilled the beans by confirming that there was a 16:9 vs. 4:3 test screening at CBS I wouldn't know. Apparently he was advocating a widescreen extraction, and perhaps hoped that the fans would be asking to see this format comparison test screening.

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I mean, to be clear, the shows were composed by the directors and cinematographers for 4:3, and that is how they should always be presented. If CBS had any integrity they would never even consider altering other peoples' art to fill the screen, even if they could open the matte with no issues. That is a purist opinion, but I am very purist about art and artists' work.

But (with the exception of Sins of the Father on BD) that's exactly what CBS (and previously Paramount with the DVD release) did with the TNG Blu-ray release. The directors and DPs who shot TNG relied on the overscan of 4:3 TVs (then) to crop the areas outside the "safe action area".

Yet, these redundant areas are visible in the BD release and reveal flaws the original directors and DPs didn't want us to see:



Those who watch TNG on an HD screen with overscan and without 1:1 pixel mapping probably won't notice flaws at the top (example below) or bottom (carpet piece in the above example), but those with properly calibrated AV equipment will. Fortunately I do have a front projector with a masking function that helps me to simulate the original overscan at the top and bottom (and still deliver 1:1 pixel mapping), but from a strictly purist's point of view the extra 4:3 image information left and right shouldn't be there.





(It's somewhat unclear whether the equipment on the right is studio equipment or 24th Century leftovers of the construction crew that didn't have time to finish all the Battle Bridge - Paramount apparently thought it was studio equipment, that's why a black vertical strip on the DVD release covers the right side)

Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya

No, he really wants everyone to drink the kool-aid of converting 4x3 composed content to 16x9. Didn't get a lot of traction over at AVS so now it has been brought here. It is all daft.

Yes, I brought it over here because I also wanted to hear from users in a forum with a focus on Blu-ray software and not AV equipment.

Frankly, I still don't understand all the animosity. With TNG on Blu-ray and in 4:3 you purists got what you wanted, right? I would have thought with all the water that ran under the bridge, since the release of Season 7 on Blu-ray it might be possible to talk about the issue in a neutral manner, but obviously I have been wrong.

I would love to see DS9 and (the later seasons of) VOY to be remastered in HD, too, and I'm not that picky whether it would be 4:3 (have that on DVD already with the original broadcast quality ) or 16:9.

However, I can't shake the feeling that if a 16:9 reformatting is out of the question it just isn't going to happen. YMMV.

Here is one of my favorite quotes (supposedly from Albert Einstein):

We cannot solve the problems using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them

[Geoff D]

I watch TNG with a bit of overscan turned on. I tried it at roughly 1.55 like I did with Twin Peaks but it looked too cramped, but with a little tickle off the top and bottom it doesn't harm the image any....though I hardly see that as grounds for championing a full 16:9 version.

To reply to mr Einstein: why is original 4:3 content a problem that needs to be solved?

Edit: And I love how my post is basically the exact opposite of what I've just posted in the Abyss thread.

Speaking of which, why are you championing the altered 4:3 version of a 2.35 movie in one thread and the altered 16:9 version of a 4:3 TV show in another, Frank? [Geoff adopts Southern drawl] Why, anyone would think you are doing it just to be contrary, sir!

[DasRetroKid]

When I was a kid I remember always skipping a channel that was playing something in black & white, simply because at that age I regarded black & white as being "old," "out of touch," and "not cool."

I wonder if that's how today's youth feels about 80's / 90's shows shown in their OAR with the two black bars?

Just thinking out loud here.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Frank169

But (with the exception of Sins of the Father on BD) that's exactly what CBS (and previously Paramount with the DVD release) did with the TNG Blu-ray release. The directors and DPs who shot TNG relied on the overscan of 4:3 TVs (then) to crop the areas outside the "safe action area".

This is not a good comparison at all. Overscan is not aspect ratio, and you can easily turn overscan on in your TV settings if that bothers you. Hell, given TVs at the time you could easily say the show was filmed to be seen with super high color temperature too, but that doesn't mean the BDs should be altered to be blue. Just change your TV settings if you want to see how it looked back in the day.

If we're being honest then any HD remaster of an old TV show is altering it to some degree, I will be honest and admit that. However like a lot of things in life it's about degrees and gradients. Seeing things more crisp and more warm than ever planned on is a change, sure, but altering the entire composition is a much larger change by many orders of magnitude.

[Shalashaska]

It doesn't matter how much picture information is there on the film frame. It's about how each shot was framed and composed.

TNG, DS9 and VOY were all broadcast, framed and composed for 4:3. You can make a 16:9 extraction from the latter two with minimal cropping, but the end goal is still just "fill my screen".

If a show is set to be broadcast in 4:3, all the action's going to be in the 4:3 frame. Expanding it to 16:9 is completely altering the look and feel of each show. It adds a lot of empty space and takes important info off the top and bottom. What's the point?

No thanks. If I've wasted all this time praying for a DS9 Blu-ray release only to find it's 16:9, I'd kick up a storm. I'd just stick to my DVDs in that case, and no, that's not absurd at all. I'd do the same for The X-Files and The Wire too.

[Geoff D]

But if it were the only way to make a remaster viable, what then? I'm a purist but also a pragmatist which is why I picked up X-Files on day 1, and I'd do the same for DS9 on Blu-ray if it were 16:9.

[Maxwell Everett]

Originally Posted by Frank169

Some cropping would be inevitable, but IIRC the later seasons of DS9 and Voyager were deliberately shot to make a 16:9 extraction possible, i.e. pretty much what they did with the Super35 camera format.

John Sprung (Director of Technology Paramount Pictures Corp.) explained over at cinematography.com back in 2004 what happened:

Yes, absolutely, one aspect ratio per show is the best idea. We have a few that are letterboxing for NTSC, and it's really a pleasure to go that way. You get better compositions when the DP has only one goal in mind. You have less stuff to do in post if you only make and title one version. And it's a lot easier for the rest of the life of the show to have only one version on the shelf.

Interestingly, we tested the "cross-shape" idea back in 1996-97. I drew up over a dozen different possible relationships between 4x3 and 16x9 in AutoCad, all with equal amounts of "extra" 16x9 room on the sides, but more 4x3 slop below than above. I showed them to some DP's, and Bob Primes and I selected two of them for testing. Panavision made up some ground glasses, and Jonathan West shot some tests for us on the DS9 set. Those tests blew the idea out of the water. That's what convinced me that the only right solution was to give up on a fixed relationship between the two frames, and argue for the extra work and expense of an online repositioning session to get the best possible compromise for the secondary composition. I gave the test ground glasses to Marianne in the camera department, and she made earrings out of them.

Later we did tests of pan and scan vs. tilt and scan on Voyager, and chose the tilt and scan approach.

-- J.S.

Originally Posted by Frank169

[Show spoiler]

(It's somewhat unclear whether the equipment on the right is studio equipment or 24th Century leftovers of the construction crew that didn't have time to finish all the Battle Bridge - Paramount apparently thought it was studio equipment, that's why a black vertical strip on the DVD release covers the right side)

That is definitely grip equipment: a french flag and the leg of a c-stand.

The DVDs have black vertical strips on the sides because of the quirks of digitizing the old analog NTSC video signal which only had the equivalent of 704 active pixels horizontally. When you fit video that is only 704 pixels wide in a space that has room for 720, you get a column of 8 pixels on either side of the image that are black in what would have been the horizontal blanking area. You'll see these columns shift a bit in width from shot to shot as the old analog video equipment had to be adjusted periodically during use to recenter the image.

[Geoff D]

Cheers Max, that's probably what I was thinking of re: DS9, they did some tests but then abandoned the idea.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But if it were the only way to make a remaster viable, what then? I'm a purist but also a pragmatist which is why I picked up X-Files on day 1, and I'd do the same for DS9 on Blu-ray if it were 16:9.

X-Files was mostly expanded though. I don't like that, but at least no information is missing. With DS9 and VOY there would have to be significant cropping. I don't think I could handle it.

[KMFDMvsEnya]

There is no legitimate justification to screw around with the OAR for TNG. TOS 16x9 conversion is annoying and clearly exhibits the problems with process, even when doing it al'right'.

Now Babylon 5 was intended for 16x9 but the VFX were all rendered in letterbox 4x3, this series deserves to be remastered in HD in 16x9 but alas that day will never happen. *sniffles.