Bram Stoker's Dracula 4K UHD (1992) (25th Anniversary Edition)

[Brett C]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Brett...did you any work on Carrie's OG mono for the upcoming fourkay? I can't see your credit on the back cover.

No, the audio is in good shape. Was no real reason to upgrade it.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Brett C

No, the audio is in good shape. Was no real reason to upgrade it.

Great to hear (literally). Thanks!

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

Batman Returns Dolby Digital track played in 10 theaters TOTAL in the US in June 1992

I seriously doubt in November of that same year that number jumped to "Dozens"

Yes, most 70MM houses did the first upgrades. You think Batman Returns was booked on every single Dolby Digital capable screen???

I saw Bram Stoker's Dracula in Dolby Digital in San Diego in '92. So yes, after the summer of 1992 a lot of premium theaters were doing the upgrade and by fall it was "dozens", new theaters were opening with Dolby Digital built-in. Nearby in Chula Vista, CinemaStar opened early in 1993 was a tenplex and advertised ALL of their screens were THX & Dolby Digital - that's nearly a dozen in one shot.

Originally Posted by PonyoBellanote

So you mean mid-90s there were a couple of movies done with Dolby Digital 5.1, even if they used the Dolby Stereo logo? That explains a lot and makes sense. I remember a featurette on The Lion King surround, in the 2003 set, mentioning that it was originally mixed in 1994 in Dolby 5.1, even if posters, prints and etc say Dolby Stereo, I figure because, as you guys said, there weren't that many Dolby Digital cinemas.

Aladdin was Disney's first animated feature in Dolby Digital.

Toy Story 2 was Disney's first feature in Dolby Digital Surround EX (6.1 with a matrixed rear surround).

Toy Story 3 was the first film in Dolby (Digital) Surround 7.1

Brave was the first film in Dolby Atmos (despite only having a Dolby Surround 7.1 logo in the credits).

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by Brett C

I will chime in on this,

Bram Stoker's Dracula was mixed natively in 5.1 and the general release version is a mixdown from the 6-track magnetic master. Almost all the films mixed in 5.1 in the 1990s were mixdowns. Anyone that worked on these mixes would in no way consider the accompanying Dolby A, SR tracks for these mixes, the primary mix in regards to filmmaker intent. They are valid in that it is what most people heard, but most people heard the first 3 Star Wars films theatrically in mono, but in no way would anyone consider those the primary mixes. Theatre owners are notoriously cheap, were in those days and still are today, particularly in the US. Europe were always lot quicker to adopt the newest film tech for theatres, that's a fact.

By the mid 1980s at least 80% of all the movies made were in stereo, but less than half that number of theatres were equipped to to play anything other than in mono. Even 10 years into the adoption of the new digital formats, you still had theatres allover the place in the US still only equipped to play Dolby optical. it was pathetic, I walked out of many a screening for that reason, no excuse for that in the early to mid 2000s. So I find that whole stance rather silly. I do agree however that both tracks for Dracula should be preserved.

Apocalypse Now was the first actual 5.1 mix in 6-track with split surrounds in 1979 on about 15 screens. CDS was the first digital 5.1 format launched in 1990, it reached about 50 screens. Once again, wildly more popular in Europe. Films like Flatliners played CDS digital in Europe, but not in the US.
Theatre owners balked at the idea of paying upwards of 25K for the gear and upgrading the speakers on top of that.
The same scenario happened with Dolby Digital, SDDS and DTS.
Universal out of their own pocket, installed millions of dollars worth of DTS gear for free to nearly 800 theatres in the US for Jurassic Park in 93. It played around 2000 screens DTS internationally. SDDS was giving away the gear to theatre owners as well.

Theatre adoption in the US in 1992 was slow, but, it reached around 150 screens by the end of the year.

Films mixed and released in 5.1 for Dolby Digital release in 1992 were,

Batman Returns
Honey I Blew Up The Kid
The Mighty Ducks
Under Siege
Aladdin
Bram Stoker's Dracula
Malcolm X
The Bodyguard
Pure Country
Toys

There were a few 70mm 6-Track 5.1 releases in 92, most notable being Alien 3.

Thanks for all this info, it's much appreciated!

So even prior to say CDS when it was Dolby Stereo or a 6 track mag playback for a special 70mm release like in the 1980s, a 6 track mix was the original mix and down mixed if needed? Or was that mentality more when digital was a possibility?

Basically, for a movie that wasn't shot in 70mm but released in a blowup (let's say, BTTF part II ) was it originally mixed 6ch and then theaters got Dolby Stereo for 35mm and a select few got the OG 6ch, or was the mindset to mix for LRCS because that's what 99% if people would listen to with the 6ch 70mm blow-up being a special bonus?

Also thanks PeterTHX for your post as well!

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by PonyoBellanote

Question, what *is* a 70mm 6-track 5.1, or a 6-track optical in general. Is that a precursor of the 5.1 surround, how'd it work?

Prior to digital formats like CDS, Dolby Digital etc you had two choices for sound; optical or magnetic stripe. There was no 6ch optical sound. That topped out with 4 matrixed channels like Dolby Stereo or Ultra Stereo.

6ch is a precursor of 5.1 in the sense that it has more discrete channels both front and surround, but the configuration changed over the years.

Early ones had 5 front channels so dialogue, SFX etc could pan from one part of the screen to the other smoothly and had a single mono surround. No dedicated LFE.

Star Wars and a bit earlier Sensurround I think introduced some LFE tracks, I think it was called "baby boom" at the expense of some of the front channels.

Others used split surround.

I'm not an expert in the 70mm mixes and how they progressed but that's a general answer to your question.

IMAX 15/70 used an interlocked 16 or 35mm mag coated film in 6ch for playback as the format had no room for a soundtrack, no dedicated LFE and I think 2 rears and that configuration carried to digital sound with 15/70. Never heard the analog playback, IMAX digital is the best sound system I have heard to date so the lack of dedicated LFE is not a concern to me I think

Modern 70mm prints use DTS now.

[Brett C]

Originally Posted by singhcr

Thanks for all this info, it's much appreciated!

So even prior to say CDS when it was Dolby Stereo or a 6 track mag playback for a special 70mm release like in the 1980s, a 6 track mix was the original mix and down mixed if needed? Or was that mentality more when digital was a possibility?

Basically, for a movie that wasn't shot in 70mm but released in a blowup (let's say, BTTF part II ) was it originally mixed 6ch and then theaters got Dolby Stereo for 35mm and a select few got the OG 6ch, or was the mindset to mix for LRCS because that's what 99% if people would listen to with the 6ch 70mm blow-up being a special bonus?

Also thanks PeterTHX for your post as well!

In the early days, separate mixes were done. 70mm and 4-track mag before that were considered the roadshow/premiere mixes and were limited to major city engagements. They were expensive to do and more time and care went into them. In those days though, most people heard mono. Dolby was around, but theatres would not deck out all their auditoriums for playback. It would be that screen that played the big release just like it was in the early adoption of all the formats later on.

In the digital era of the 90s, it was at a much faster adoption rate. By 1994, most of the studio films were being mixed 5.1. It was only the independents really that were mixing in matrix surround by that time purely out of cost.

[Geoff D]

Yeah, I ain't no expert but 5.1 became the standard at the source level pretty darned quickly. This is why I just couldn't get outraged over the 'missing' 2.0 audio on Arrow's Wild Things like that other dude did, that flick would've been 'natively' mixed in 5.1 (maybe even more if full-fat SDDS?) and so the 2.0 was more of an afterthought even at that early point. That's in contrast to the analogue multi channel era where separate mixes were still made for separate formats so for anything made before, say, 1990-ish then I still see real value in including the matrixed 2.0 as well as whatever else. Some mixers did regard the 70mm 6-track as their primary, there's a bit in AmCin with the sound mixer on Lynch's Dune (it's in the Arrow booklet I think) and he tears the matrixed stereo a new one whilst praising the 6-track to the heavens.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Brett C

I will chime in on this,

[Show spoiler]Bram Stoker's Dracula was mixed natively in 5.1 and the general release version is a mixdown from the 6-track magnetic master. Almost all the films mixed in 5.1 in the 1990s were mixdowns. Anyone that worked on these mixes would in no way consider the accompanying Dolby A, SR tracks for these mixes, the primary mix in regards to filmmaker intent. They are valid in that it is what most people heard, but most people heard the first 3 Star Wars films theatrically in mono, but in no way would anyone consider those the primary mixes. Theatre owners are notoriously cheap, were in those days and still are today, particularly in the US. Europe were always lot quicker to adopt the newest film tech for theatres, that's a fact.

By the mid 1980s at least 80% of all the movies made were in stereo, but less than half that number of theatres were equipped to to play anything other than in mono. Even 10 years into the adoption of the new digital formats, you still had theatres allover the place in the US still only equipped to play Dolby optical. it was pathetic, I walked out of many a screening for that reason, no excuse for that in the early to mid 2000s. So I find that whole stance rather silly. I do agree however that both tracks for Dracula should be preserved.

Apocalypse Now was the first actual 5.1 mix in 6-track with split surrounds in 1979 on about 15 screens. CDS was the first digital 5.1 format launched in 1990, it reached about 50 screens. Once again, wildly more popular in Europe. Films like Flatliners played CDS digital in Europe, but not in the US.
Theatre owners balked at the idea of paying upwards of 25K for the gear and upgrading the speakers on top of that.
The same scenario happened with Dolby Digital, SDDS and DTS.
Universal out of their own pocket, installed millions of dollars worth of DTS gear for free to nearly 800 theatres in the US for Jurassic Park in 93. It played around 2000 screens DTS internationally. SDDS was giving away the gear to theatre owners as well.

Theatre adoption in the US in 1992 was slow, but, it reached around 150 screens by the end of the year.

Films mixed and released in 5.1 for Dolby Digital release in 1992 were,

Batman Returns
Honey I Blew Up The Kid
The Mighty Ducks
Under Siege
Aladdin
Bram Stoker's Dracula
Malcolm X
The Bodyguard
Pure Country
Toys

There were a few 70mm 6-Track 5.1 releases in 92, most notable being Alien 3

.

This thread's moving quickly - didn't see your post when I made my last one but thank you.

Hopefully those will convince the skeptics.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah, I ain't no expert but 5.1 became the standard at the source level pretty darned quickly. This is why I just couldn't get outraged over the 'missing' 2.0 audio on Arrow's Wild Things like that other dude did, that flick would've been 'natively' mixed in 5.1 (maybe even more if full-fat SDDS?) and so the 2.0 was more of an afterthought even at that early point.

It was pretty much seen as a backup at that point.

That's in contrast to the analogue multi channel era where separate mixes were still made for separate formats so for anything made before, say, 1990-ish then I still see real value in including the matrixed 2.0 as well as whatever else. Some mixers did regard the 70mm 6-track as their primary, there's a bit in AmCin with the sound mixer on Lynch's Dune (it's in the Arrow booklet I think) and he tears the matrixed stereo a new one whilst praising the 6-track to the heavens.

Hadn't heard that one but not surprised.
2-track optical was just so limited compared to magnetic 6-track.
Some features in the 70s didn't even bother with a stereo version, they made a 70MM six track and a mono and that's it. 1941 was one of those I believe.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

This thread's moving quickly - didn't see your post when I made my last one but thank you.

Hopefully those will convince the skeptics.

It's more the pre-digital era where you'll have to work a lot harder to convince me that there's no artistic merit to the 2.0 mixes when a 6-track was available. Seeing as the split-surround config was still rarer than the Format 42 baby boom then most 70mm mixes were still LCRS, just a discrete mastering thereof. Some did still prefer it, no question, but if you said I have to have an OG 2.0 or nothing at all for whatever DS/6-track era movie then I'd take the 2.0 every damned time. A discrete rendition of the 6-track in a 4.1 or 5.1 container would be even betterer but I'll never renounce our lord and saviour 2.0 on pre-digital 5.1 flicks.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It's more the pre-digital era where you'll have to work a lot harder to convince me that there's no artistic merit to the 2.0 mixes when a 6-track was available. Seeing as the split-surround config was still rarer than the Format 42 baby boom then most 70mm mixes were still LCRS, just a discrete mastering thereof. Some did still prefer it, no question, but if you said I have to have an OG 2.0 or nothing at all for whatever DS/6-track era movie then I'd take the 2.0 every damned time. A discrete rendition of the 6-track in a 4.1 or 5.1 container would be even betterer but I'll never renounce our lord and saviour 2.0 on pre-digital flicks.

I'm not saying that but on a film like Predator or Poltergeist where the 5.1 is based on the 70MM I'm not going to bother with the 2.0

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

I'm not saying that but on a film like Predator or Poltergeist where the 5.1 is based on the 70MM I'm not going to bother with the 2.0

I did, and I don’t regret it, see?

[cheez avenger]

Watched the new Dracula 4K disc last night -- it was great.

On a side note, all this talk about when these new codecs were implemented and whatnot, I still remember the SDDS track for From Dusk Till Dawn and how reference quality it was. I saw that film like 5 times in theaters with different people and it was one of the best movie going experiences ever.

/as you were

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by PonyoBellanote

Question, what *is* a 70mm 6-track 5.1, or a 6-track optical in general. Is that a precursor of the 5.1 surround, how'd it work?

Sorry, missed it.

There's no 6-track optical.

70MM 6-track from the Dolby-era (1976-1990s) used magnetic stripes on 70MM prints, blowups from 35MM originals, to have discrete sound with full frequency and higher dynamic range than optical Dolby Stereo (Dolby Surround) soundtracks. The channels were Left (L) Center (C) Right (R) Surround (S) and 2 "baby boom" bass channels in what was the left-center and right-center channels in the 1960s (trivia: SDDS 8-channel restored those extra center channels). Some call this configuration 4.2

In 1978 Dolby experimented with adding stereo surrounds to 70MM prints with Superman: The Movie - making the configuration 5.1 (LCR and LS/RS & sub) and in 1979 rolled it out officially with Apocalypse Now. Not too many films received the 5.1 treatment, most 70MM blow-ups in the 1980s were 4.2 - in 1986 Dolby added SR noise reduction for even greater dynamic range that exceeded 16-bit digital, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home was the first film in 70MM SR. There are peaks in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade that are like this.

Since the 70MM blow-up process and prints were pretty expensive, not to mention most cinemas were scaling down to your typical multiplex size and so didn't have the room for 70MM projection equipment they set about working on a 35MM sound format that would do away with the limitations of optical soundtracks. In 1990 they introduced CDS, which ironically enough only went out at first on 70MM prints with Dick Tracy and later in 35MM. Problem with CDS in 35MM there was no backup track so if the digital track became corrupted or the decoder malfunctioned there was no sound, plus studios had to keep dual inventory of print types. Dolby was working on their HDTV transmission format at the time and realized they could encode their AC-3 format in between the sprocket holes of 35MM prints so technically you could make an entire print run Dolby Digital with standard Dolby Stereo as well. The format was 5.1 and had the dynamic range of 70MM. In 1993 DTS and SDDS were also introduced. Needless to say, the end of 70MM prints as a mainstream release format came to a quick end.

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by Brett C

I will chime in on this,

Bram Stoker's Dracula was mixed natively in 5.1 and the general release version is a mixdown from the 6-track magnetic master.

Thank you for the info, but are you sure Dracula's stereo track was a simple mixdown? It's been documented that there were a number of extra and/or enhanced sound effects in the 5.1. A couple that I know of for sure are the rushing water when Elisabeta dives into the river at the beginning, and the wolf growling at about 40 minutes in during the flying POV shot (which is much louder and more pronounced in the 5.1).

Also, as I've pointed out, the 2.0 on this new UHD has a different music cue for the final scene than any other track I've ever heard for this film (including the Columbia Tristar laserdisc, whose audio was supposedly taken from the standard Dolby Stereo track). So I'm still not sure what's going on there.

Originally Posted by Rocklandsboy

Now that the original subtitles have been confirmed - and hurrah for that...

Can anyone confirm that Sony hasn't pushed one of their Netflix-style "go to the extras NOW" pop-ups over the end credits?

Can confirm; there is no auto-popup.

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Sorry, missed it.

In 1978 Dolby experimented with adding stereo surrounds to 70MM prints with Superman: The Movie - making the configuration 5.1 (LCR and LS/RS & sub) and in 1979 rolled it out officially with Apocalypse Now. Not too many films received the 5.1 treatment, most 70MM blow-ups in the 1980s were 4.2 - in 1986 Dolby added SR noise reduction for even greater dynamic range that exceeded 16-bit digital, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home was the first film in 70MM SR. There are peaks in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade that are like this.

Was Star Trek IV a test SR release? I'd always read that the first Dolby SR films were Innerspace and RoboCop.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by BNex99

Was Star Trek IV a test SR release? I'd always read that the first Dolby SR films were Innerspace and RoboCop.

Sort of. They actually called it "70MM Dolby Spectral Sound" at the Fox theater in Westwood where I saw it at. But the actual first film tested in 35MM SR was Ruthless People in '86.

[Brett C]

The biggest advantage of having discrete channels is more fluid panning and no smearing. No dialogue bleed through to the low frequencies, which could be a big problem with the optical versions. Dynamic range, mag was more forgiving.
Optical was very unforgiving on loud peaks and would go straight to distortion, even at the printing stage. The QC back in the day for optical was so bad, that finding any track now without an issue is like winning the lottery. Distortion on mono and phase and misaligned channels on stereo are the most common. People really have no idea how good they have it today. Take for instance something like Halloween in 1978-79, it played optical mono with a frequency response at: 45-8000 Hz with the dynamic range at: 48 db. Nails on a chalkboard is the best way to describe that experience by todays standards.

Apocalypse Now in 70MM 6-Track for myself is the gold standard. I was blown away and it was literally life altering for myself hearing that at a screening almost 30 years ago. None of the video releases including the Atmos mix sound as good in my estimation. The dynamic range and warmth of that mix was incredible and sadly it has been watered down over the years via new remixes, it's just not the same.

Alien 70mm 6-track was terrific and that has survived it's port to video, the BD pretty much sounds the same.

Predator is far superior in it's 6-track format. The low end was rolled off considerably in it's original theatrical matrix version. Once again, it sounds pretty much the same on BD/UHD.

I restored the 70mm 6-track for the film The Entity, (1983). It really was a restoration, rather than just a remaster. Fox had lost the elements and only had a Spanish language 6-track in their possession in the US. I had to source out a Pal master that was made in Europe of this mix and that copy was literally deteriorating. One of the hardest things I ever did up until Black Christmas of course.
The fact I was able to retrieve the audio underneath the garbage was a small miracle. What is interesting about that mix is that it features a lot of discrete panning for effects that are just completely lost in the 2.0 version and since the 5.1 was an upmix from the 2.0 print master it loses even more in comparison. Stuff that should pan to the surrounds are locked into the front left and right on the 5.1. I was glad I pursued this track, because it was 2019 right before the Disney takeover at Fox and I knew it was now or it is lost forever.


Back to Dracula though, it is in my mind still one of the best 5.1 mixes ever done. The editing and panning is just insane in this mix especially for the time. A standout moment is Harker's arrival at the passage by coach and it's departure, which is a directional pan on the one side. Nothing had ever been mixed like that before with so much fluidity and directionality to the panning and it directly showcases the advantage that multi channel mixing could achieve over matrix surround. it's one of the moments that definitely earned it the Oscar.

[captainsolo]

There were several attempts at stereo or multichannel audio over the years before 70mm's six track system was pioneered by the Todd AO format. When the widescreen revolution began in the 50's stereo and multichannel were a part of many systems but theaters were reluctant to also upgrade sound in addition to changing screens and entire halls.
Cinerama not only spawned the revolution in widescreen but in multichannel audio as well. Todd AO was the originator of the 6 track setup that became standard in 70mm roadshows. Equally important was Cinemascope having 4 track magnetic stereo which remained in use for a while and some films had 4 track mixes in addition to mono for general release.
Also magnetic stereo or mag optical could be used in general 35mm runs meaning in capable theaters with magnetic prints some films could have beefier mixes or presentations available and it didn't have to be a 70mm blowup. As far as I know magnetic audio on 35mm prints lasted up to Scarface in 1983..

In the digital sound era just because 5.1 was suddenly available didn't mean it took over overnight. Most films were still mixed and released with SR in mind if not entirely if you look at lower budget films and the emerging indie market. It really depends on the sound team. Going on a film by film basis and 90's studio practices by a certain point digital sound had taken over the sound world but it was up to theaters to purchase, install and implement correctly. SR-D as Dolby first called 5.1 ac3 was backed by some studios, DTS by others and SDDS was Sony's baby. Depending on the studio and licensing eventually combo format prints would turn up carrying multiple formats.

As far as I know in regards to Bram Stoker's Dracula there was a multichannel sound master and two mixes were then done: one for the 6 channel 5.1 master and the other for the general release 2.0 SR. A number of music cues and effects are supposed to differ between them and the two main Laserdisc releases were specifically sourced from the alternate masters. Prior to the modern remixes I thought Sony had seemingly offered different versions of the 5.1 master.

[Brett C]

Originally Posted by BNex99

Thank you for the info, but are you sure Dracula's stereo track was a simple mixdown? It's been documented that there were a number of extra and/or enhanced sound effects in the 5.1. A couple that I know of for sure are the rushing water when Elisabeta dives into the river at the beginning, and the wolf growling at about 40 minutes in during the flying POV shot (which is much louder and more pronounced in the 5.1).

Also, as I've pointed out, the 2.0 on this new UHD has a different music cue for the final scene than any other track I've ever heard for this film (including the Columbia Tristar laserdisc, whose audio was supposedly taken from the standard Dolby Stereo track). So I'm still not sure what's going on there.



Can confirm; there is no auto-popup.

The master stems are what you hear on the 5.1. It was mixed 5.1 and downmixed for the 2.0 print master, but that does not mean they are 100% identical. Levels need to be altered for optical printing due to it's not handling loud dynamic peaks as well and mixes just go through many variations. Sound effects are altered, because the discrete panning collapses in the matrix downmix and Dracula is full of them. The chance that an alternate master for the 2.0 was used here is probably very likely and I don't see that as a bad thing. I actually find it more desirable from a fan interest perspective. The theatrical 2.0 has been out there for years, this has not.