HD DVD "twin format;" triple layer disc

[jedisinclair]

The first US "twin-format" HD DVD/DVD release (the anime title 'Freedom 1') doesn't hit store shelves until June 26th, but our Kenneth Brown got a sneak peak this week, and tells all in his just-posted review.
Not to be confused with double-sided HD DVD/DVD combo discs, twin-format discs can contain up to three layers of recorded content on a single-sided disc. 'Freedom 1' uses two of those layers -- a 15GB HD DVD layer, and a 4.6GB standard-def DVD layer. Looking at the disc itself, Kenneth says you'd never guess it's anything special. Unlike combo discs, one side has a printed label, while the other side looks just like a normal HD DVD disc. Pop it in an HD DVD player or a standard-def player, however, and the twin-format disc starts to work its magic, auto-detecting the player format and hopping to the proper layer without the user having to make any selection.

OK... maybe I don't understand, but isn't the point of buying hd dvd or Blu-ray to have HD content and NOT standard DVD? If I wanted dvd, I'd buy dvd... if I want Hi-Def, I buy Blu-ray... they really think this is cool?

[Josh]

Eventually, they could create a single disc with both formats on it, and price it the same as a DVD and spread adoption of the format. It will, however, be quite a while before they can do that with the pricing.

[Glow007]

I think they do that so if you only own one HD-DVD player you can still watch the movie in other rooms of your home or take it to a friends house who doesnt own an HD-DVD player.

Its actually a pretty cool idea. I wish you could play Blu-rays in standard def as well on a normal dvd player, that way my wife would quit complaining about not being able to watch her netflix movies in the bed room (no BD player in bedroom.) You would think they would not do that so you would have to buy more BD players tho, also Im not sure if its possible because the BDs themselves are larger than dvd where as the HD-DVD are the same size.(atleast that is my understanding)

[bferr1]

If they really wanted to seamlessly spread adoption of the format, I think they're taking the wrong approach with these discs. They should market them as a DVD with bonus HD DVD layer, and not the other way around. Marketing it the way they do is like preaching to the converted...

But then again, it's HD DVD, so who cares?

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Josh

Eventually, they could create a single disc with both formats on it, and price it the same as a DVD and spread adoption of the format. It will, however, be quite a while before they can do that with the pricing.

To make DVD quantity requires DVD capacity. That is, for major title they would need to be able to make 3x as many discs for just the first day of the release as have been sold so far for HD DVD, for all titles.

Also, two layer means HD DVD-15 and DVD-5 - That is BOTH formats would be getting short-changed.

Three layer is the same as TL45. It's a mythical creation at this point. And if they can't get HD DVD discs to work in all players now, how would anyone expect a three layer disc to work reliably?

But, assuming that it does work, then it is a DVD-5/HD DVD-30 or a DVD-9/HD DVD-15. Again, one format is compromised.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by Glow007

Im not sure if its possible because the BDs themselves are larger than dvd where as the HD-DVD are the same size.(atleast that is my understanding)

No. They are all the same physical size.

If you consider that, on average, these combo/twin discs costs $5 more than a regular disc, the cost for this "convenience" is astronomical considering how the cost of players is dropping.

[Shadowself]

You only get 3 layers ... total.

You either get
1 HD DVD layer (15 GB) and 1 DVD layer (4.6 GB [why not 4.7? pit spacing of HD DVD impacts it, I suppose])
or
1 HD DVD layer (15 GB) and 2 DVD layers (<8.5 GB)
or
2 HD DVD layers (30 GB) and 1 DVD layer (4.6 GB)

Thus you can either
a) have only a short film in HD using 15 GB and 4.6 GB
or
b) a full length feature with a very, very compressed HD layer (15 GB) and slightly less than normal DVD layers (<8.5 GB)
or
c) a full length feature with HD DVD's normal size limitations and an overly compressed feature on a single DVD layer (and not a full layer at that).

Sound like a stupid idea to me.

[sedaku]

Well alot of dumbass have been mistakenly bought HD-DVD thinking they will be albe to run it in there DVD players.

This is just the HD-DVD camp strategy to boost more sales, target: ignorance consumer.

[The Don]

if they are going to offer a disc with HD DVD and DVD...they shouldn't charge more for it...

[atomik kinder]

This is supposed to work in standard DVD players, but will it really? I can just see all kinds of compatiblity issues popping up.

[Gil T Pleasure]

Originally Posted by sedaku

Well alot of dumbass have been mistakenly bought HD-DVD thinking they will be albe to run it in there DVD players.

This is just the HD-DVD camp strategy to boost more sales, target: ignorance consumer.

Twin format disc can be a double edge sword. An uninformed person buys the disc thinking it's high def and then plays it on his/her DVD players then concludes that the video quality looks worse than Blu-ray because the DVD player can only read the DVD layer of the disc.

[Chad Varnadore]

I concur, HD DVD/DVD combos are all about returns management now. Early on I think studios like Universal used them experimentally and as a cheap way to include the DVD extras without having to author them in alongside the HD presentation. It was easier to do. But, now I think they're focused on consumer misinformation. Few stores will let you return something after it's been opened. The fact that Universal is only supporting combos on day and date, not catalog releases implies this, as that's where the majority of mistaken sales are going to come from. Then there's Weinstein, who doesn't do combos, but releases HD several months after the DVD. Maybe it's just coincidence, but I think they figure the people who wait will know the difference. There's no other reason that I've thought of not to support day and date, when everybody else is.

This new disc format, like TotalHD is just a step backwards IMO. They need 4 layers to do it right - otherwise flippers are better. And it's just asking for more problems.

[Stef Nighthawk]

Meh,

Blu-ray can do 4 layers without any problems.
2 layers BD at 0.1mm and 2 layers DVD at 0.6mm.
HD-DVD can only do 3 layers because both HD DVD and DVD are at 0.6mm

Still the result is a pricier disc than its single format counterpart.

[GoldenRedux]

Moved to Off Topic

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Chad Varnadore

This new disc format, like TotalHD is just a step backwards IMO. They need 4 layers to do it right - otherwise flippers are better. And it's just asking for more problems.

Agreed.

[aaronwt]

Originally Posted by Stef Nighthawk

Meh,

Blu-ray can do 4 layers without any problems.
2 layers BD at 0.1mm and 2 layers DVD at 0.6mm.
HD-DVD can only do 3 layers because both HD DVD and DVD are at 0.6mm

Still the result is a pricier disc than its single format counterpart.

Huh!. if they could do it without any problem they would have released some by now.

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by aaronwt

Huh!. if they could do it without any problem they would have released some by now.

Why do you say that? You're assuming they want to release some, but you can't make that assumption.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Stef Nighthawk

Meh,

Blu-ray can do 4 layers without any problems.
2 layers BD at 0.1mm and 2 layers DVD at 0.6mm.
HD-DVD can only do 3 layers because both HD DVD and DVD are at 0.6mm

I believe the BD two layer structure is:

1.0mm substrate
Layer 0
0.25mm separator
Layer 1
0.75mm top layer

For each subsequent layer, the separator gets smaller and smaller and the cover layer thinner and thinner.

Gary