Speaker Soundstage Opinions - To Toe In or to Not Toe In?

[kingofgrills]

Take this one with a grain of salt, since speaker design differences warrant different approaches to placement. However, I'm curious to see what you are all doing with regard to speaker toe-in for your front sound stage. Do you toe your speakers in a little, a lot, or not at all and why?

I tend to keep my speakers somewhere between straight ahead and a little toe-in, with the primary goal being slight improvement in mid-range imaging. My speakers have monopole ribbon tweeters that radiate out in 180 dispersion pattern. The manual states they should be placed directly ahead without toe-in, but I do hear a slight improvement in mid-range imaging with a small adjustment toward center.

Please share not only what you do on your fronts, but all the way around if you want. Also, any sort of speaker info you can give, such as monopole, dipole, horn or dome tweeters, etc. would be appreciated.

[Hammie]

I've played with my toe-in and got it to the point where all music sounded like it was coming from my center speaker. I don't have the exact degree off axis, but they are toed-in about foot off center at my sweet spot.

BTW, I have B&W 804s fronts.

[jomari]

Specs:
hornhead, direct rediating speakers
we just moved in so my rooms about 18x28 size, soundstage on the smaller width area.

there are two methods to what id normally do.
- for certain horns, i toe in so it would hit about 2 feet before the sweet spot.
- for others id toe in so it would hit around 2 feet behind the sweet spot.

from experience, it really changes per room interaction and/or acoustic characteristics of the speakers in whole.

heres my question for those out there to consider,

how far do you have your speakers from the walls?

just a thought.

[-DLS-]

Originally Posted by kingofgrills

I tend to keep my speakers somewhere between straight ahead and a little toe-in, with the primary goal being slight improvement in mid-range imaging. My speakers have monopole ribbon tweeters that radiate out in 180 dispersion pattern. The manual states they should be placed directly ahead without toe-in, but I do hear a slight improvement in mid-range imaging with a small adjustment toward center.

I guess it could also depend on size and shape of the room. Paradigm recommends toe in towards the main listening position but I have them almost straight out with a very slight toe in just like you described and get similar results with improved imaging plus a wider and deeper soundstage. My room is only 3 sided with some acoustic treatments so that may be why it sounds better the way I have it. I tried different angles of toe in but the way I have it now works best - 16" out from front wall and 7 1/2' apart pointing almost straight out. Speakers are 3 way floorstanders.

Surrounds are 2 1/2 way straight firing and I have them foot behind with the tweeter a foot above ear level from the front row.

Rear surrounds are 3 way Adaptive Dipoles and they are 1 1/2' above ear level from back row(just under 2 1/2' above ear level from front row)

[kingofgrills]

Originally Posted by louhamilton

I've played with my toe-in and got it to the point where all music sounded like it was coming from my center speaker. I don't have the exact degree off axis, but they are toed-in about foot off center at my sweet spot.

BTW, I have B&W 804s fronts.

Lou, thanks for the feedback. I love B&Ws, and your 804's look fantastic. I bet they sound incredible.

[kingofgrills]

Originally Posted by jomari

Specs:
hornhead, direct rediating speakers
we just moved in so my rooms about 18x28 size, soundstage on the smaller width area.

there are two methods to what id normally do.
- for certain horns, i toe in so it would hit about 2 feet before the sweet spot.
- for others id toe in so it would hit around 2 feet behind the sweet spot.

from experience, it really changes per room interaction and/or acoustic characteristics of the speakers in whole.

heres my question for those out there to consider,

how far do you have your speakers from the walls?

just a thought.

jomari, I agree. I often see one or two potetial issues with placement of the left and right speakers. 1) Either they are right against the sides of the TV, leaving no separation, or 2) one or both are right against side walls which can bring unwanted interaction and reflections. Granted, just about everyone has space limitations or physical factors that impact placement. I guess we just have to consider everything and do our best when it comes to equipment selection and placement.

[kingofgrills]

Originally Posted by DLS_222

I guess it could also depend on size and shape of the room. Paradigm recommends toe in towards the main listening position but I have them almost straight out with a very slight toe in just like you described and get similar results with improved imaging plus a wider and deeper soundstage. My room is only 3 sided with some acoustic treatments so that may be why it sounds better the way I have it. I tried different angles of toe in but the way I have it now works best - 16" out from front wall and 7 1/2' apart pointing almost straight out. Speakers are 3 way floorstanders.

Surrounds are 2 1/2 way straight firing and I have them foot behind with the tweeter a foot above ear level from the front row.

Rear surrounds are 3 way Adaptive Dipoles and they are 1 1/2' above ear level from back row(just under 2 1/2' above ear level from front row)

DLS, your room looks fantastic. It looks like you've put a lot of thought into your room treatments. I think your ceiling diffusers go a long way toward cleaning up your imaging and soundstage. You don't see ceiling diffusers used much at all, leaving ceiling interaction in play.

Great job!

[solarrdadd]

all of my speakers are direct and my fronts are pointed straight ahead. at one point i did the toe in but found that because i have some seating on the sides that i was slightly cheating those folks so straight ahead, everybody gets a nice dose! perhaps if i had theatre seating with none on the side i would then consider the toe in option.

[jomari]

Originally Posted by kingofgrills

jomari, I agree. I often see one or two potetial issues with placement of the left and right speakers. 1) Either they are right against the sides of the TV, leaving no separation, or 2) one or both are right against side walls which can bring unwanted interaction and reflections. Granted, just about everyone has space limitations or physical factors that impact placement. I guess we just have to consider everything and do our best when it comes to equipment selection and placement.

true true true... its also about compromise.
1. WAF amendment.
2. room limitations
3. ridiculous amount of space if needed (for some klipsch floorstanders, they prefer at least 4 meters away from the walls - are you kiddin me!?!? )...

anyways...its an afterthought for some people, for others, its a priority.

[Twitch9]

Originally Posted by louhamilton

i've played with my toe-in and got it to the point where all music sounded like it was coming from my center speaker. I don't have the exact degree off axis, but they are toed-in about foot off center at my sweet spot.

Btw, i have b&w 804s fronts.

+1

[crazyBLUE]

My Bostons are toed in right at the sweet spot ! This is where they sound the best & have real good imaging , In 2-channel at the sweet spot it sounds like the center tower is the only speaker playing !

The front 3 are 4 feet away from the back wall & the L/R 10 inches from the side walls .

My 2 surrounds are slightly angled pointing at the sweet . The rear surrounds are 3 feet apart & are facing forward .

[Johnny Vinyl]

You can see from the pic in my gallery the space that surrounds my front speakers. What you may not be able to notice is the fact that I have them Toe'd OUT! I know, it's an uncommon approach, but it works in my room envirionment. The soundstage opened up considerably, the imaging is superb and the bottom end improved as well. I am very happy with my speaker placement.

John

[CasualKiller]

My 2 cents, toe in is used to correct issues when you cannot have your seating in the optimal position. The "slight improvement" you are hearing may be do to a less than optimal seating position.

Too many factors to say in general that toe in is either a good thing or a bad thing. Each listener must take their own seating positions and room acoustics into account when making adjustments to the toe in (or out) of a speaker.

[Big Daddy]

This topic is covered in A Guide to Bipole, Dipole, & Direct Speakers thread. I copied a section from post #1.

FRONT SPEAKERS SETUP

For front speakers, put the speakers at least 2 to 3 feet away from the wall.

• The distance between the two speakers should be between 6 to 10 feet.
• The distance between your main listening chair and the distance between the two speakers should be approximately the same. They should form approximately an equilateral triangle.

• The tweeters should be about the same level as your ears when you are seated. For smaller speakers, use a stand. Slight tilting backward or forward of the speakers until the tweeters point toward your head may also work.
• You can slightly angle (toe-in) the speakers toward the listening chair. You can use a string to make sure both speakers are angled exactly the same. Angling the speakers too much may have two disadvantages:
  1. It may ruin the sound stage.
  2. It will not be very effective for others who may be sitting elsewhere in the room. Don't be selfish.

Play a CD with good soundstaging and a singer in the middle.

• If the soundstage is good and wide but the center stage is blurred, move the speakers closer together.
• If the center stage is focused and sounds great, but the soundstage isn't very wide, angle the speakers away from the listening position a little at a time until the soundstage becomes wider without losing the center stage.
• Many speakers may sound better if they are pointed at your shoulders rather than directly at your head.
• Always use a string to make sure both speakers are angled the same way.
• Don't be afraid to experiment. Rooms are not the same and interaction with room boundaries, furniture, carpets, etc. play an important role in the sound that you hear.
• Many experts believe that in a small home theater room, you hear the room and not the speakers.