High-def ‘down-converting’ forced - Blu-ray Forum

thunderhawk · 01-22-2006, 04:51 PM

High-def ‘down-converting’ forced

Some buyers of HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc players might not get everything they bargained for.

In a deal reached this week after tense negotiations, the eight-company consortium behind the Advanced Access Content System, created for use by both high-def formats to prevent unauthorized copying, has agreed to require hardware makers to bar some high-def signals from being sent from players to displays over analog connections, sources said.

Instead, the affected analog signal must be “down-converted” from the full 1920x1080 lines of resolution the players are capable of outputting to 960x540 lines—a resolution closer to standard DVDs than to high-def. Standard DVDs are typically encoded at 720 horizontal by 480 vertical lines of resolution.

The 960x540 standard stipulated in the AACS agreement represents 50% higher resolution than standard-def, but only one-quarter the resolution of full high-def. Whether a particular movie is down-converted will be up to the studio.

The players will be required to recognize and respond to a digital flag, called an Image Constraint Token, inserted into the movie data.

If the flag is set to “on,” the player must down-convert the analog signal. If set to “off,” the player can pass the full high-def signal over the analog connections.

The studios are divided over whether to require such down-conversion and are likely to follow separate policies.

Hardware makers had generally resisted the requirement, but under the new deal, ICT recognition will be included in the AACS license that all device makers and playback software vendors will have to sign.

Estimates differ on how many consumers might be affected by the new requirement.

Many first-generation HDTV sets are equipped only with analog inputs, because at the time they were manufactured, there was no agreed-on industry standard for copy-protected digital connections between devices.

Now that there is, however, the studios are anxious to move all signal traffic to protected digital inputs and outputs.

Although movies in both Blu-ray and HD DVD will be encrypted while on the disc, the digital encryption is lost once the signal is converted to analog. Some studios fear that pirates will be able to capture and record the unencrypted analog signal, which could then be re-converted into a pristine, unprotected digital copy.

Down-converting the analog signal from high-def to something closer to standard-definition would at least prevent pirates from starting with the highest-quality image.

The effect, however, will be to deny those HDTV owners with analog-only sets the full capabilities of the new disc formats.

As part of the deal with hardware makers, the studios will be required to disclose on a movie’s packaging whether the image will be down-converted.

Supporters of Image Constraint argue that few consumers will be able to tell the difference between down-converted analog and high-def.

Many so-called HDTV sets are actually capable of displaying only 720 lines of resolution, regardless of the source, so viewers would not be getting full high-def anyway, even over digital connections.

Once the analog image is down-sampled to 540 lines, moreover, players will be permitted to use a signal processor to “up-convert” it to 720 or 1,080 lines.

Although such up-conversion does not restore the detail lost through down-sampling, it does improve overall picture sharpness.

No studio would comment on whether it plans to take advantage of the Image Constraint option.

Within the AACS consortium, however, Warner Home Video was consistently the strongest proponent of the idea, according to sources familiar with the negotiations.

20th Century Fox Home Entertainment is not a member of AACS, but has argued against the idea in other forums.

AACS-member Disney, as well as non-members NBC Universal and Paramount, are likely to take advantage of the option, according to sources with knowledge of the studios’ thinking.

Although Sony is a member of AACS, where it sometimes clashed with Warner on the issue, sources said it is still unclear whether Sony Pictures Home Entertainment will take advantage of the ICT option now that it is in place.

Source:
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6300812.html

zombie · 01-22-2006, 10:18 PM

Interesting article but I've never thought the studios would allow HD over component and I still don't.

Blue · 01-23-2006, 08:42 AM

Does this mean the last stumbling block to allow manafacturers to begin production? Will this just allow HD-DVD to go ahead and Blu-Ray have to sort out other issues?

shakes · 01-23-2006, 03:08 PM

Go figure. I should have seen this coming. This is the one thing that I have been following closely. I am less likely to support either Blu-Ray or Hd-Dvd now. I have a older Pioneer 53in hdtv monitor. It only has a rgb and component inputs. What is the point of buying a high-def player if I am only going to get half the picture quality of high def versus dvd. I have a cable box that supports high def over analog connections.

I can see the hdmi/dvi inputs being used for cable boxes and satellite boxes as they will be broadcasting in hd. But a stand-alone player? Come on. If I buy the player and the movie, guess who is getting screwed? Not the pirates, but the early adopter. The consumer.

I always thought the early adopters were the ones who drive the industry. I feel like I have been OWNED.

AV_Integrated · 01-23-2006, 03:13 PM

One of my favorite things is that they decided to pick a happy medium... you know, 540p.

Exactly how many sets actually ACCEPT 540p input? That's not a video standard! It isn't even a touch of a thought on the manufacturers part to try to focus on the problem of all the existing televisions without a HDMI input, but with HD capability.

I think it is a worthless move on their part as there is no question in my mind that there will be a hack for HD discs within a year. Of course, this will force me to COPY any HD disc I get and remove the flag. I don't want to copy discs, I want to buy them and be able to play them on the equipment I own.

Meh, my PS3 will still look nice.

Gorkab · 01-23-2006, 04:29 PM

You know, PAL specs for DVD includes 576p... So if it's the case, there's no need to buy any HD player (except on PC & MAC of course)

Marwin · 01-23-2006, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

One of my favorite things is that they decided to pick a happy medium... you know, 540p. Exactly how many sets actually ACCEPT 540p input? That's not a video standard!

If I'm not mistaken players will need to down-convert to 540p first internally for analog, but then they are allowed to upconvert it back to 1080p before they actually output the video. Sure, it won't be the same as true HD over analog, but it should still be an improvement over upconverted DVDs.

thunderhawk · 01-23-2006, 05:18 PM

Yeah... Nice feature... But how much quality loss is that..? Ofcourse it aint that big but... It's still a unfinished product.

Marwin · 01-23-2006, 05:53 PM

Oops, I just noticed that your original post already covered the upconverting of the downconverted version

Anyway, this feature will be optional for the studios and some might not even use it. Those that use it will have to label their movies so it should be easy for consumers to avoid these titles. If people vote with their dollars then it might get the studios that use it to change their mind. It's also possible that they might wait to use it until after a few years when more people have had time to upgrade their TVs, time will tell.

phloyd · 01-23-2006, 05:55 PM

It will be most interesting if not all the studios adopt ICT.

All indications are that Fox for example will not do this.

Since the discs will be clearly labelled regarding this 'feature', it would seem that there will be direct feedback in terms of sales as to how many consumers think this is a show stopper.

Titles without this feature should outsell titles with the feature... the question is by how much... enough to make them rethink it?

Remember it is an option to not have this feature, just like some DVDs don't have CSS and/or macrovision.

Cheers!

thunderhawk · 01-23-2006, 07:11 PM

Mmm.. I don't know if it'll hold back people from buying those discs. Content is content and if the same content isn't provided on discs without the feature, people will still buy the disc so I personally don't think it'll affect sales...
Most people don't even look at the 'technical' information at the bottom of the back side of the disc so...

shiltz · 01-23-2006, 08:33 PM

That sucks, fortunatly my TV is newer though and has an HDMI connector though so i'm fine, that down-converting however is why I don't even care about BLu-ray or HD-DVD for my computer though as you need windows vista for both and it will do the same downconverting unless you have a monitor with DRM or whatever it's called, the digital rights managment, of course only about 1% of new monitors sold have that, even the nice high end big ones like the 24" dell LCD doesn't have it.

phloyd · 01-24-2006, 06:03 PM

It has to affect people with analogue only displays.

With the choice of titles, I am going to have to pick and choose - people with analogue connections will choose titles that look good over titles that look like SD. They have DVD's for that.

Still - some people think that hooking up the cable box via RF channel 3 to their new 60" HDTV is HD, so you never know

Cheers!

Shadowself · 01-24-2006, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phloyd

It has to affect people with analogue only displays.

Or those of us that have a few year old monitor with DVI (without HDCP) and component.

My intent was to wait until this all shakes out to buy a replacement with all the bells and whistles, but start building my Blu-ray library this year.

With this restriction it makes no senseto me to convert to Blu-ray until I get a new monitor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phloyd

With the choice of titles, I am going to have to pick and choose - people with analogue connections will choose titles that look good over titles that look like SD. They have DVD's for that.

I agree. For me it means waiting on Blu-ray... unless there are many that don't support this stupid "protection" method.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phloyd

Still - some people think that hooking up the cable box via RF channel 3 to their new 60" HDTV is HD, so you never know

You mean it's not???? ;-)

Marwin · 01-26-2006, 03:16 PM

I found this interesting comment at AVS Forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7000743

Quote:

Someone from Warner, Disney or SPHE--off the record, natch--said there is a sunrise provision in AACS concerning ICT recognition in the first generation of both HD DVD and BD players...in other words, IF TRUE, it would mean that first gen equipment would effectively *ignore* any ICT valuing and output full resolution analog.

speleofool · 01-27-2006, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Mmm.. I don't know if it'll hold back people from buying those discs. Content is content and if the same content isn't provided on discs without the feature, people will still buy the disc so I personally don't think it'll affect sales...
Most people don't even look at the 'technical' information at the bottom of the back side of the disc so...

What makes you think people would buy discs with image constraint enforced? Let's consider 3 different cases:

1. the content is available on DVD and the consumer already owns it.
If the consumer is aware of image constraint, then there is no reason to buy the BD version. If not, the consumer may buy the disc expecting full HD quality. They might discover they're getting less than DVD quality, or they may simply not see a noticeable improvement over the DVD version. In either case the consumer will likely conclude that BD is not offering good value.

2. the content is available on DVD and the consumer does not own it.
If the consumer is aware of image constraint, then whether to buy the BD version may come down to price. If the DVD version is cheaper, the consumer may very well opt to pass on the BD version. If the consumer is not aware of image constraint, however, then he/she may purchase the BD version, but will likely be disappointed if/when they learn about image constraint later.

3. the content is not available on DVD.
In this case the consumer may buy the BD version simply because no other options are available. However, an incredible amount of content is available on DVD already, and there is a huge installed base of DVD players out there. No matter how wildly successful BD becomes, you're not going to see DVD disappear overnight. Therefore, I think this will be an exceptionally rare case and one of the first two cases will govern the vast majority of real-world cases.

--

Granted, the above does assume that the consumer will be affected by image constraint. One might argue that most new sets have digital inputs and the whole point is moot. However, some people have only analog inputs and will most definitely be affected. Furthermore, most of the displays that I have seen with digital inputs have only one. That means a BD player will need to occupy that input to the exclusion of other devices. Regardless of whether this is a "showstopper," it most certainly limits consumer options. Therefore I see image constraint as having some effect on a lot more people than are generally acknowledged when discussing this problem.

Cheers!
Speleo.

thunderhawk · 01-27-2006, 05:59 PM

It's not whether the people will image constraint enforced content, it's whether the people will know... What actually will pose a problem. Ofcourse is what you state also correct

LoL

phloyd · 01-27-2006, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speleofool

That means a BD player will need to occupy that input to the exclusion of other devices. Regardless of whether this is a "showstopper," it most certainly limits consumer options. Therefore I see image constraint as having some effect on a lot more people than are generally acknowledged when discussing this problem.

You make good points.

This last one is not really a problem since high end AV amps and other switching devices are/will be able to switch protected HDMI.

With the downrez being 960x540, it is only about 15% higher than DVD (comparing to the 480), and I imagine would look much the same on a typical HDTV. Probably not worse, but hardly worth buying a new disc to replace a DVD.

Cheers!

speleofool · 01-27-2006, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Posted by phloyd
This last one is not really a problem since high end AV amps and other switching devices are/will be able to switch protected HDMI.

Yeah, it looks like it's "work-around-able." Granted, my $3500 receiver does only component video switching and I'm not eager to replace that, but there will probably be digital video switchboxes & maybe I'd be able to do some kind of automation using RS-232 or something to keep audio & video in sync. Worst case I can do IR macros on my remote.

I was also going to post a follow-up to my own post since I visited my favorite electronics retailer this afternoon and noticed that one of the newer 1080p sets had 2 HDMI inputs, so this is probably just another case of the latest & greatest interconnects gradually becoming the norm. Image constraint may, then, turn out to be less of a problem for people with newer all-digital sets.

Interestingly enough, though, one of the high-end home theater installers I know has told me that analog video inputs provide a superior image on high-end projectors to digital inputs. At the time he was referring to a digital projector, which seemed odd or even wrong to me (I could see this being the case for a big 3-gun CRT), but considering he does $100,000+ installations I suppose I'll cut him some slack. In any case, if there is some truth to this then it's yet another example of how image constraint is a slap in the face to people who really care about video quality.

Cheers!
Speleo.

phloyd · 01-28-2006, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speleofool

Interestingly enough, though, one of the high-end home theater installers I know has told me that analog video inputs provide a superior image on high-end projectors to digital inputs.

Yeah I think he has been smoking crack. I have yet to see this being the case... unless he prefers the analogue signal since it is usually a little softer.

The analogue also tends to pick up noise that shows up as ripple.

Even on my CRT I believe that the HDMI looks cleaner than the component in.

As you say the Sony SXRD have two HDMI inputs, and I think also that this will be a trend. Companies like Gefen make selectors capable of selecting from 4 HDMI inputs to one out. Sadly they are not inexpensive.

Cheers!

01-22-2006, 04:51 PM	#1
thunderhawk Moderator Member since:Jul 2004 Location:Belgium	High-def ‘down-converting’ forced High-def ‘down-converting’ forced Some buyers of HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc players might not get everything they bargained for. In a deal reached this week after tense negotiations, the eight-company consortium behind the Advanced Access Content System, created for use by both high-def formats to prevent unauthorized copying, has agreed to require hardware makers to bar some high-def signals from being sent from players to displays over analog connections, sources said. Instead, the affected analog signal must be “down-converted” from the full 1920x1080 lines of resolution the players are capable of outputting to 960x540 lines—a resolution closer to standard DVDs than to high-def. Standard DVDs are typically encoded at 720 horizontal by 480 vertical lines of resolution. The 960x540 standard stipulated in the AACS agreement represents 50% higher resolution than standard-def, but only one-quarter the resolution of full high-def. Whether a particular movie is down-converted will be up to the studio. The players will be required to recognize and respond to a digital flag, called an Image Constraint Token, inserted into the movie data. If the flag is set to “on,” the player must down-convert the analog signal. If set to “off,” the player can pass the full high-def signal over the analog connections. The studios are divided over whether to require such down-conversion and are likely to follow separate policies. Hardware makers had generally resisted the requirement, but under the new deal, ICT recognition will be included in the AACS license that all device makers and playback software vendors will have to sign. Estimates differ on how many consumers might be affected by the new requirement. Many first-generation HDTV sets are equipped only with analog inputs, because at the time they were manufactured, there was no agreed-on industry standard for copy-protected digital connections between devices. Now that there is, however, the studios are anxious to move all signal traffic to protected digital inputs and outputs. Although movies in both Blu-ray and HD DVD will be encrypted while on the disc, the digital encryption is lost once the signal is converted to analog. Some studios fear that pirates will be able to capture and record the unencrypted analog signal, which could then be re-converted into a pristine, unprotected digital copy. Down-converting the analog signal from high-def to something closer to standard-definition would at least prevent pirates from starting with the highest-quality image. The effect, however, will be to deny those HDTV owners with analog-only sets the full capabilities of the new disc formats. As part of the deal with hardware makers, the studios will be required to disclose on a movie’s packaging whether the image will be down-converted. Supporters of Image Constraint argue that few consumers will be able to tell the difference between down-converted analog and high-def. Many so-called HDTV sets are actually capable of displaying only 720 lines of resolution, regardless of the source, so viewers would not be getting full high-def anyway, even over digital connections. Once the analog image is down-sampled to 540 lines, moreover, players will be permitted to use a signal processor to “up-convert” it to 720 or 1,080 lines. Although such up-conversion does not restore the detail lost through down-sampling, it does improve overall picture sharpness. No studio would comment on whether it plans to take advantage of the Image Constraint option. Within the AACS consortium, however, Warner Home Video was consistently the strongest proponent of the idea, according to sources familiar with the negotiations. 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment is not a member of AACS, but has argued against the idea in other forums. AACS-member Disney, as well as non-members NBC Universal and Paramount, are likely to take advantage of the option, according to sources with knowledge of the studios’ thinking. Although Sony is a member of AACS, where it sometimes clashed with Warner on the issue, sources said it is still unclear whether Sony Pictures Home Entertainment will take advantage of the ICT option now that it is in place. Source: http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6300812.html

01-23-2006, 05:53 PM	#9
Marwin Developer Top contributor Member since:May 2003 Blu-ray collection:10 DVD collection:5 iTunes collection:1	Oops, I just noticed that your original post already covered the upconverting of the downconverted version Anyway, this feature will be optional for the studios and some might not even use it. Those that use it will have to label their movies so it should be easy for consumers to avoid these titles. If people vote with their dollars then it might get the studios that use it to change their mind. It's also possible that they might wait to use it until after a few years when more people have had time to upgrade their TVs, time will tell. Last edited by Marwin; 01-23-2006 at 05:55 PM.

01-27-2006, 05:59 PM	#17
thunderhawk Moderator Member since:Jul 2004 Location:Belgium	It's not whether the people will image constraint enforced content, it's whether the people will know... What actually will pose a problem. Ofcourse is what you state also correct LoL Last edited by thunderhawk; 01-27-2006 at 06:01 PM.

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01-22-2006, 10:18 PM	#2
zombie Blu-ray Guru Top contributor Member since:May 2004 Trading Score:865	Interesting article but I've never thought the studios would allow HD over component and I still don't.

01-23-2006, 08:42 AM	#3
Blue Super Moderator Top contributor Member since:Jan 2005 Location:Melbourne Australia Blu-ray collection:206	Does this mean the last stumbling block to allow manafacturers to begin production? Will this just allow HD-DVD to go ahead and Blu-Ray have to sort out other issues?

01-23-2006, 03:08 PM	#4
shakes New Member Member since:Jan 2006	Go figure. I should have seen this coming. This is the one thing that I have been following closely. I am less likely to support either Blu-Ray or Hd-Dvd now. I have a older Pioneer 53in hdtv monitor. It only has a rgb and component inputs. What is the point of buying a high-def player if I am only going to get half the picture quality of high def versus dvd. I have a cable box that supports high def over analog connections. I can see the hdmi/dvi inputs being used for cable boxes and satellite boxes as they will be broadcasting in hd. But a stand-alone player? Come on. If I buy the player and the movie, guess who is getting screwed? Not the pirates, but the early adopter. The consumer. I always thought the early adopters were the ones who drive the industry. I feel like I have been OWNED.

01-23-2006, 03:13 PM	#5
AV_Integrated Senior Member Member since:Jan 2005	One of my favorite things is that they decided to pick a happy medium... you know, 540p. Exactly how many sets actually ACCEPT 540p input? That's not a video standard! It isn't even a touch of a thought on the manufacturers part to try to focus on the problem of all the existing televisions without a HDMI input, but with HD capability. I think it is a worthless move on their part as there is no question in my mind that there will be a hack for HD discs within a year. Of course, this will force me to COPY any HD disc I get and remove the flag. I don't want to copy discs, I want to buy them and be able to play them on the equipment I own. Meh, my PS3 will still look nice.

01-23-2006, 04:29 PM	#6
Gorkab Senior Member Top contributor Member since:Nov 2004 Location:France 4K collection:147 Blu-ray collection:548 DVD collection:28 Blu-ray reviews:1	You know, PAL specs for DVD includes 576p... So if it's the case, there's no need to buy any HD player (except on PC & MAC of course)

01-23-2006, 05:18 PM	#8
thunderhawk Moderator Member since:Jul 2004 Location:Belgium	Yeah... Nice feature... But how much quality loss is that..? Ofcourse it aint that big but... It's still a unfinished product.

01-23-2006, 05:55 PM	#10
phloyd Blu-ray Guru Member since:Dec 2003 Location:California Trading Score:5	It will be most interesting if not all the studios adopt ICT. All indications are that Fox for example will not do this. Since the discs will be clearly labelled regarding this 'feature', it would seem that there will be direct feedback in terms of sales as to how many consumers think this is a show stopper. Titles without this feature should outsell titles with the feature... the question is by how much... enough to make them rethink it? Remember it is an option to not have this feature, just like some DVDs don't have CSS and/or macrovision. Cheers!

01-23-2006, 07:11 PM	#11
thunderhawk Moderator Member since:Jul 2004 Location:Belgium	Mmm.. I don't know if it'll hold back people from buying those discs. Content is content and if the same content isn't provided on discs without the feature, people will still buy the disc so I personally don't think it'll affect sales... Most people don't even look at the 'technical' information at the bottom of the back side of the disc so...

01-23-2006, 08:33 PM	#12
shiltz Member Member since:Jan 2006	That sucks, fortunatly my TV is newer though and has an HDMI connector though so i'm fine, that down-converting however is why I don't even care about BLu-ray or HD-DVD for my computer though as you need windows vista for both and it will do the same downconverting unless you have a monitor with DRM or whatever it's called, the digital rights managment, of course only about 1% of new monitors sold have that, even the nice high end big ones like the 24" dell LCD doesn't have it.

01-24-2006, 06:03 PM	#13
phloyd Blu-ray Guru Member since:Dec 2003 Location:California Trading Score:5	It has to affect people with analogue only displays. With the choice of titles, I am going to have to pick and choose - people with analogue connections will choose titles that look good over titles that look like SD. They have DVD's for that. Still - some people think that hooking up the cable box via RF channel 3 to their new 60" HDTV is HD, so you never know Cheers!

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