Sony's Blu-ray players do 3D in 1080p even with HDMI 1.3

[HDTV1080P]

It looks like HDMI 1.3 and possible DVI will support 3D 1080P. HDMI 1.4 will not be needed.

http://hd.engadget.com/2010/02/16/sonys-blu-ray-players-do-3d-in-1080p-even-with-hdmi-1-3/

[Jeff Kleist]

Yeah, I saw this last night, and put it in the other thread. People, including Engadget are reading it wrong

They are shipping the players prior to 1.4 certification, so while the hardware supports the 1.4 features, they cannot call it 1.4.

"The 3D-ready models mentioned in the release will be fully capable of 3D playback of Full HD 1080p for each eye. The players and theater systems support the HDMI 1.4 spec for 3D playback, but may not support all of the qualifications of spec (which is why we haven't labeled it specifically 1.4 at this time)."

[gonk]

Not necessarily. Check out this part:

"The 3D-ready models mentioned in the release will be fully capable of 3D playback of Full HD 1080p for each eye. The players and theater systems support the HDMI 1.4 spec for 3D playback, but may not support all of the qualifications of spec (which is why we haven't labeled it specifically 1.4 at this time)."

I read this report earlier in the week, and what I took away from the quote above was that they had a new HDMI chip in these players that included some of the v1.4 capabilities but was being labeled as v1.3 - it doesn't mean that an older HDMI v1.3 chip could handle 1080p 3D. Dual-link DVI can probably handle it, as it was designed for resolutions well above 1920x1080, but unless the computer industry starts offering 3D-capable monitors I don't see anybody building sources or displays that use DVI for 3D.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by gonk

Not necessarily. Check out this part:

I read this report earlier in the week, and what I took away from the quote above was that they had a new HDMI chip in these players that included some of the v1.4 capabilities but was being labeled as v1.3 - it doesn't mean that an older HDMI v1.3 chip could handle 1080p 3D. Dual-link DVI can probably handle it, as it was designed for resolutions well above 1920x1080, but unless the computer industry starts offering 3D-capable monitors I don't see anybody building sources or displays that use DVI for 3D.

3-D computer monitors and 3-D graphics cards are already shipping. Just need the 3-D BLU-RAY movies and computer 3-D BLU-RAY player to be released.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/blu-ray-pc...ml#post2855439

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Yeah, I saw this last night, and put it in the other thread. People, including Engadget are reading it wrong

They are shipping the players prior to 1.4 certification, so while the hardware supports the 1.4 features, they cannot call it 1.4.

I agree. That would mean exiting HDMI 1.3 Blu-ray players most likely would not be able to support 3-D at 1080P with a firmware update. These new Sony BLU-RAY players are labeled as HDMI 1.3 but they really are closer to the HDMI 1.4 specs. Kind of like a HDMI 1.35 spec.
This will confuse people even more.

[Jeff Kleist]

The only confusion comes from people at Engadget jumping to conclusions. These players are Blu-3D ready to go

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

The only confusion comes from people at Engadget jumping to conclusions. These players are Blu-3D ready to go

Sony plans on offering a firmware update around summer time to make these players 3-D Blu-ray players. Maybe with the firmware update the new Sony players would become HDMI 1.4 certified?

[gonk]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

These new Sony BLU-RAY players are labeled as HDMI 1.3 but they really are closer to the HDMI 1.4 specs. Kind of like a HDMI 1.35 spec.
This will confuse people even more.

I use HDMI throughout my system, but I have been very dissatisfied with the standard's management for many years now. The way they handle labeling is a long-standing gripe of mine. In the past, is has been possible for products like surround receivers to be labeled simply "HDMI" or "HDMI v1.1" or even "HDMI v1.3" even if their HDMI section provided nothing more than basic video switching. Consumers had to scour user manuals or hope they found an informed salesperson to determine if such a product would also handle audio. By allowing these implementations and not requiring some clear labeling, HDMI confused plenty of consumers. It is sort of like Dolby Labs using a single "Dolby" logo to cover everything from Pro Logic II support to TrueHD support - that would confuse consumers and lessen the value of the Dolby brand, so they have separate logos for Pro Logic II/IIx, Dolby Digital, DD+, and TrueHD. HDMI doesn't seem to care. This v1.3/v1.4 hybrid on Sony's 3D players is not going to help matters.

[Jeff Kleist]

it doesn't mean that it's a hybrid. It simply means that they can't call it HDMI 1.4

He's using legalese to carefully protect them in case a big SNAFU pops up. I really wouldn't worry about it

Assuming it supports the 3D my TV does, I'd buy one without concern myself

[RBBrittain]

I've been saying for some time, as this article does, that you *CAN* transmit dual 1080p24 streams as alternating frames in a 1080p60 stream, thus allowing 1080p24 3-D over *any* version of HDMI. You do *NOT* need HDMI 1.4 to do that, though you'll need it for 1080p60 3-D and other HDMI 1.4-specific features (audio return path, networking, etc.)

I think a lot of folks have jumped to conclusions that it can't be done without reducing resolution (540p, 1080i, etc.), especially since 3-D cable will apparently be 540i60; but cable has different technical issues than BD 3D. 3-D cable's bottleneck is its entire infrastructure, from the network's master control or satellite uplink to the STB; BD 3D's only bottleneck is the HDMI connection.

[sterryo]

so how can the announced firmware update for ps3 fit into this? i'm quite sure the ps3 only has the 1.3 harware in it.
it would appear that 1.4 is not required for 3d

[Jeff Kleist]

There are 3D sets out there already

But if your TV does not have a sync port, nor the ability in HDMI 1.4 to sync through the player, it still won't work because the glasses can't lock to the cadence to make it work. This isn't like with the Sega Master System shutter glasses. In 1986 there was no processing, there were CRT tubes with very little variance in how long it took to display an image from the time it left the console. Without the ability to sync to the TV, it's simply not practical.

Unless you already have a 3D capable set, I wouldn't be looking at the PS3 for a 3D Blu-ray player. Besides, a dedicated player uses 1/8th the power, runs nearly silent, and current models load plenty quickly. That low-end Sony wll probably be well under $150 by Christmas, and they will also probably be all but giving them away with shiny new 3D TVs that you have to buy anyway

[Arkadin]

so maybe I have read all this wrong, but it seems like you are saying that the "new" players will really be hdmi 1.4, just not in name--
so that means that the title of the thread is not 100% accurate because most players that are 1.3 will NOT be able to do 3D.
It will only be these players that are simply labeled 1.3 out of extra caution.
is that correct?

[gonk]

That's the way I understand it, yes.

[Arkadin]

got it.
thanks for the info.

[RBBrittain]

Originally Posted by Arkadin

so maybe I have read all this wrong, but it seems like you are saying that the "new" players will really be hdmi 1.4, just not in name--
so that means that the title of the thread is not 100% accurate because most players that are 1.3 will NOT be able to do 3D.
It will only be these players that are simply labeled 1.3 out of extra caution.
is that correct?

My answer is "maybe". It may be that THESE players will adopt a few elements of HDMI 1.4, but won't be labeled as such since they can't handle the full feature set. They may be analogous to "fat" PS3s, which include some elements of HDMI 1.3 but can't handle the full feature set due to their pre-1.3 emitter chips. ("Slim" PS3s have HDMI 1.3 emitter chips, so they have the full HDMI 1.3 feature set.)

That does NOT mean existing HDMI 1.3 players can't be upgraded to BD 3D, however--even if you believe the HDMI 1.4 fanboys who insist they won't be 1080p. (I disagree--as I noted earlier, it *IS* possible to embed 1080p24 3-D inside a 1080p48 or 1080p60 HDMI 1.3 signal. And Jeff, sync *IS* one of the reasons I think it'll be 1080p60; the TV will know which frame is which from the "unused" fifth frame.) The PS3 has already been announced for a BD 3D firmware upgrade. SAs may OR may not be upgraded, depending on hardware capabilities and/or the manufacturer's wishes; some say any BD-Live player can do it, but given the spotty update record of SAs in general I'll believe that when I see it.

(Edit: Given these players are in the pipeline, I wouldn't be surprised if Sony does NOT upgrade all or most of its existing SAs, whether due to hardware limitations or to steer you to buy a new one. That doesn't apply to the PS3, which comes from a different Sony subsidiary.)

[RBBrittain]

Originally Posted by sterryo

so how can the announced firmware update for ps3 fit into this? i'm quite sure the ps3 only has the 1.3 harware in it.
it would appear that 1.4 is not required for 3d

You're absolutely right; PS3s are supposed to get BD 3D even though they're only HDMI 1.3 (and "fat" PS3s aren't even 100% compliant with 1.3). The naysayers insist the PS3's 3-D won't be 1080p, based in part on 3-D cable apparently being 540i60; but as I've pointed out earlier, you can embed dual 1080p24 streams in a 1080p60 stream--which any PS3 can handle--with room to spare. (Cable has to be down-rezzed, but its technical limitations are different.)

However, as with past advancements to the Blu-ray spec, whether or not SAs actually get firmware upgrades to BD 3D remains to be seen. It's entirely possible SAs have other hardware limitations that prevent them from being upgraded, as with BD-Live on nearly all older SAs (only the PS3 got that via firmware). It's also possible that manufacturers may choose not to upgrade in hopes of selling you a new player.

[Jeff Kleist]

That does NOT mean existing HDMI 1.3 players can't be upgraded to BD 3D, however--even if you believe the HDMI 1.4 fanboys who insist they won't be 1080p. (I disagree--as I noted earlier, it *IS* possible to embed 1080p24 3-D inside a 1080p48 or 1080p60 HDMI 1.3 signal. And Jeff, sync *IS* one of the reasons I think it'll be 1080p60; the TV will know which frame is which from the "unused" fifth frame.) The PS3 has already been announced for a BD 3D firmware upgrade. SAs may OR may not be upgraded, depending on hardware capabilities and/or the manufacturer's wishes; some say any BD-Live player can do it, but given the spotty update record of SAs in general I'll believe that when I see it.

You're missing that it can't communicate with the glasses. You can't just turn them on and have it work. That's why there's an IR blaster that goes on top of (after plugging into the port on the TV), or is built into your TV for 3D. You cannot have the blaster plug into the Blu-ray player without 1.4 because there is no sync channel between the TV and the player

Any TV that actually supports 3D will be 1.4 or is already out there and features a port, so the point is moot.

[xtop]

http://gizmodo.com/5478082/the-signa...allows-the-ps3

Maybe you have a super awesome 240Hz LCD. Technically, its refresh rate should probably support new FHD3D (full 3D HD) Blu-ray signals. But it can't because of this diagram (by HDGuru3D)—how the information is sent to your television.

It's called over/under, and rather than a single 1920x1080 frame beaming from your Blu-ray player to your TV, it's a double stack, a 1920x2205 image (representing left eye and right eye frames along with some active blanking for audio and extra info). The signal fires at a bitrate of 6.75Gbps.

Bottom line, the fancy TV in your house now was never designed to accommodate a 1920x2205 image.

That FHD3D bitrate is an important point, however, because while many of us have claimed HDMI 1.4 is needed for FHD3D, that's not completely true. HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 both have throughputs of 10.2Gbps. And because of this basic rule of bandwidth, the smartest HDMI 1.3 devices, those using software instead of systems on a chip (like the PS3) will be able to make the FHD3D transition.

As Gary Merson from HDGuru put it to us, "There is nothing inherent in HDMI 1.3 that would prohibit FHD3D signals from passing through."

I'm not going to rewrite his entire article here. But if you're a home theater enthusiast, I'd strongly recommend his walkthrough of 3D tech, the new HDMI 1.4 standard and what it will mean to differing devices (and even the cords!) in your system. Because being a couch potato just got a lot more complicated.

does this help clear anything up?

tho i think jeff made a completely better, and different point anyways

[kingkarl1967]

3D content to a Onkyo 608 1.4 compliant amp ?