No Covering, No Thank You

[joel_reed]

Why is it that I only see pictures of blu-ray disks and machines that look EXACTLY like DVDs? Is this considered to be progress? Are these companies so cheap that they refuse to cover the surfaces of these disks with some kind of protection device? (They did it with 3.5 inch Floppy disks 20 years ago, and that seemed to work out just fine!)

Don't get me wrong, I want nothing more than for blu-ray to win the war of the formats, but why oh why are we ignoring the fact that surface scratches are a HUGE problem with these things! I don't know about you, but I don't like re-burning all of my media whenever it gets too scratched, or watching a movie that is continually skipping. (I KNOW it happens to everyone) What's the point of introducing something that holds more than it's predissesor when I could just buy a 100 pack of DVDs and save myself the effort.

I think the next format I'll be supporting is the one who is gracious enough to consider their customers needs ... it won't be the one that simply produces a cheap product purely made to increase their profit margin. (Although I won't mention any specific names)

[marzetta7]

joel_reed,

This is precisely why Blu-ray discs will come with a super-hard, durable spin coating on them. TDK will be using Durabis, which has been shown to effectively resist fingerprints, woolpads, dirt, sand, ink, and hell, even a screwdriver!

This is one of many reasons I back Blu-ray, as it is very important to me as well, because with the current state of DVDs, the durability is less than stellar lets just say. Downright disappointing in my book. Moreover, when you look at how HD DVD will be using the same technology as DVD, that is to put it more accurately, doing nothing in terms of making their discs more durable, I find Blu-ray the clear victor here.

I'm waiting for the BDA to start hitting the durability marketing hype here real soon.

[marzetta7]

joel_reed,

I'll go ahead and add that you don't want to be posting the same topic in like 4 different areas. Just FYI.

[joel_reed]

So your saying they will basically be treated with a scratch resistant surface? This reminds me exactly what they said when Cds were released, so I'm not exactly 100% on board with the idea of adding a simple layered protection on the bottom of the disk. However it does sound like that additional feature would be a benifit over your average CD or DVD, but not quite as convincing as an actual case.

Oh, and I purposly posted on four differant sections for a reason. (So it would be read more) But I'm alright with you taking the other posts off it they somehow cause problems.

[zombie]

Originally Posted by joel_reed

So your saying they will basically be treated with a scratch resistant surface? This reminds me exactly what they said when Cds were released, so I'm not exactly 100% on board with the idea of adding a simple layered protection on the bottom of the disk. However it does sound like that additional feature would be a benifit over your average CD or DVD, but not quite as convincing as an actual case.

Oh, and I purposly posted on four differant sections for a reason. (So it would be read more) But I'm alright with you taking the other posts off it they somehow cause problems.

Yes please post a topic only once. I am certain that it will be noticed in any of the forums. Thank you.

[marzetta7]

Originally Posted by joel_reed

So your saying they will basically be treated with a scratch resistant surface? This reminds me exactly what they said when Cds were released, so I'm not exactly 100% on board with the idea of adding a simple layered protection on the bottom of the disk. However it does sound like that additional feature would be a benifit over your average CD or DVD, but not quite as convincing as an actual case.

Personally, I was a fan of the caddy myself, but after seeing how well Durabis was in action, I gladly welcomed the bare Blu-ray discs. Here, take a look at this article to see how well Durabis should protect our future HD discs.

http://news.com.com/Try+scratching+t...3-5455621.html

I'll go ahead and add that even though all Blu-ray discs will not be using Durabis as I wish they would, they will be using coating equivalents as Sony has their own type of coating equivalent to Durabis, as does Panasonic. Anyhow, once you've read the article, you'll know that it would be quite impossible to do that sort of thing with today's DVD and still have playability which should tell you what you are in store for with HD DVD--more of the same scratches and skips but this time with a lot more data effected.

[thunderhawk]

That's right.
And, I believe it's more economic to use a durable caddy then a durable coating. But then again... They simply want to pack more discs at once I suppose..

[joel_reed]

I noticed a picture that was used on that site to illustrate the quality of the protection they use, but it didn't exactly look like a great way to promote a product in my opinion. The picture below shows a scratched blu-ray disk with writting and finger prints all over it, and just below it the caption says "Despite the fact that the surface of a TDK DVD-R disc with protective coating was scratched and smudged with fingerprints, a DVD drive was still able to read the disc's content"

Even if this protection was as good as they say, (Which I doubt it is) the disks would still look like they were in horrible condition when scratched! I even found a comment on the bottom of the page by a fellow sceptic which reads "As you can see on this disk, only a small portion of the inner tracks contain data, and most of the scratching and smudging is not in this area. This reminds me of the early 80's when news reporters demonstrated the indestructiibility of CDs by writing with lipstick and pen on the label side of the disc!"

As you can see this sounds alot like what I said in my last reply, so I'll let you draw your own conclusion.

http://news.com.com/2009-1041-5456423.html

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by joel_reed

I noticed a picture that was used on that site to illustrate the quality of the protection they use, but it didn't exactly look like a great way to promote a product in my opinion. The picture below shows a scratched blu-ray disk with writting and finger prints all over it, and just below it the caption says "Despite the fact that the surface of a TDK DVD-R disc with protective coating was scratched and smudged with fingerprints, a DVD drive was still able to read the disc's content"

Even if this protection was as good as they say, (Which I doubt it is) the disks would still look like they were in horrible condition when scratched! I even found a comment on the bottom of the page by a fellow sceptic which reads "As you can see on this disk, only a small portion of the inner tracks contain data, and most of the scratching and smudging is not in this area. This reminds me of the early 80's when news reporters demonstrated the indestructiibility of CDs by writing with lipstick and pen on the label side of the disc!"

As you can see this sounds alot like what I said in my last reply, so I'll let you draw your own conclusion.

http://news.com.com/2009-1041-5456423.html

First, the image shows a DVD-R which very likely has a completely different coating.

Second, we do not know how the damage was done. Were the scratches done with an eight penny nail and a lot of force - or - were they done with a fingernail? We the fingerprints done with fingers after the person had just eaten chocolates - or - were they done with freshly washed hands? Without more information on points such as these there is know way to know if the type of surface "damage" is relevant or not.

For me, I'm taking a "wait and see" attitude. I'm hopeful that the Durabis coating is significantly better than current coatings, but we'll all see when it has been shipping in volume for a few months.

[joel_reed]

Yes it was infact a DVD-R shown in the example photo so I was mistaken on that part, but yet it remains irrelevant. (What I was discussing was the 'Scratch Resistant' solution TDK created in this particular case)

What intrigues me the most about this discussion is the amount of people who are ready to defend something that will eventually cause them problems. (Remember, I'm on your side!) Large companies that produce media such as this (For the most part) look out for one thing, which is to produce a cheap product to sell at a huge markup! (Adding a minor layered protection to cover the publics concerns as well as their pockets) If someone stands behind a product blindly accepting whatever they're told, that means the company is more likely to take advantage of the position they have over you. (Which will result in a cheaper product) If this next format does not have a proper scratch protection device, then we're just going to go through this thing all over again during the next format war.

Look at the list of products we've had to endure these past few decades!

- Records (The birth of scratches and skipping)
- Laser Disks (Do I even have to comment)
- CDs (Scratch Problems)
- DVDs (Scratch Problems)
- Blu-rays/HD-DVD (You guessed it ... scratch problems!)

Can you honestly say that things have gotten better over the years? I still see the same problems with the new formats that I saw with something that was released 100 years ago! (Think people think)

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by joel_reed

Yes it was infact a DVD-R shown in the example photo so I was mistaken on that part, but yet it remains irrelevant. (What I was discussing was the 'Scratch Resistant' solution TDK created in this particular case)

What intrigues me the most about this discussion is the amount of people who are ready to defend something that will eventually cause them problems. (Remember, I'm on your side!) Large companies that produce media such as this (For the most part) look out for one thing, which is to produce a cheap product to sell at a huge markup! (Adding a minor layered protection to cover the publics concerns as well as their pockets) If someone stands behind a product blindly accepting whatever they're told, that means the company is more likely to take advantage of the position they have over you. (Which will result in a cheaper product) If this next format does not have a proper scratch protection device, then we're just going to go through this thing all over again during the next format war.

Look at the list of products we've had to endure these past few decades!

- Records (The birth of scratches and skipping)
- Laser Disks (Do I even have to comment)
- CDs (Scratch Problems)
- DVDs (Scratch Problems)
- Blu-rays/HD-DVD (You guessed it ... scratch problems!)

Can you honestly say that things have gotten better over the years? I still see the same problems with the new formats that I saw with something that was released 100 years ago! (Think people think)

Pointing out that it was a DVD-R is quite relevant because the coating is *not* the Durabis coating to be used on the Blu-ray disks. The coating on that DVD-R disk is most definitely an earlier type of coating than Durabis. Do you have ANY reason to believe that TDKs coatings have not improved since that version? Technology evolves. Things get better. I have every reason to believe the Durabis coating is better than the one used on that DVD-R.

Also you totally skipped over my questions about how the scratches/finger prints were made. If the scratches were done with a knife and the fingerprints were done with oily/messy hands [we don't know if this is how they were done or not, but not knowing causes me to question the validity of the damage], how is that relevant to the way 99% of us will treat our Blu-ray disks?

About your history of damage sensitive media...
Reaching back in time further than you... I have some records from the nineteen teens and twentys. They are extremely soft compared to LPs (records) of the 50s through 90s. Thus from my personal experience LPs have become more damage resistant than the earlier versions.

CDs are much more robust at scratch/dirt/contaminants than LPs (records). Most of us who listened on high end systems had a Diskwasher set (special cleaning brush and special cleaning fluid) ready each and every time we played them (and Diskwasher evolved from Diskwasher to Diskwasher II to Diskwasher III before I didn't listen to my LPs enought to keep updating it). To clean a CD or DVD (which I seldom need to do as I keep them in their cases and handle them by the edges [just like I did with the LPs]) all I need to do is wipe them with a clean cotton cloth. Thus from my personal use history and most of my friends, CDs and DVDs are much more robust than LPs. Also isn't it interesting that there is not "Diskwasher equivalent" for CDs and DVDs? Maybe it's because the majority of people are like me and my friends and don't believe we need one.

Also some people expect CDs and DVDs to be scratch proof. I even saw a person working in Blockbuster rip a DVD out of its case by getting her fingernails under the edge and just ripping it out. I was so ticked off by this I had a several minute discussion with her about how foolish and damaging that was to the disk. She had just assumed the disks were virtually indestructable. It's too bad that many lazy people can't handle disk with just a little care.

With the Durabis hard coat and all the demonstrations about which I have read and seen videos of demos, it seems much, much more scratch resistant than current CDs and DVDs. Is it scratch proof? No. However, it seems to be much, much more scratch resistent.

However, as I said above, I'll wait to pass final judgement. If it is at least as effective as current CDs and DVDs then I'll be fine with it.

[joel_reed]

However, as I said above, I'll wait to pass final judgement. If it is at least as effective as current CDs and DVDs then I'll be fine with it.

That just defeated the whole purpose of the reason why this post is even up. The point I was trying to make from the beginning was that CDs and DVDs do not have sufficent scratch resistence, but if your ok with what we have now then what's the point of commenting? Not to be rude, but this reminds me of people who vote in elections without even considering the platforms of those who are running ... so why bother voting?

Take a look at all the other posts on this site regarding the scratch resistants of the blu-ray and see how many other people have concerns about it. I'm not looking for an arguement here, I just have trouble believing that any kind of new protective coating will be enough to satisfy the publics needs. (Maybe I'll eat my words someday, but I can't see that happening just yet)

Oh and concerning the whole thumb print/knife scratching point you were trying to make. Why should is matter how the scratches got there? If I have to continuosly watch where I'm putting my fingers on the disk, (Or my knife) then that's a sign that a new media format should be considered. I don't ever recal picking up a VHS tape having to worry about where my fingers are while I'm holding it ... so why should I have to worry about it now? (This is called progress?) Whenever I pick up a DVD i'm almost expected to baby it as if it will fall apart any second! "Oh, Can't Touch The Bottom, Wouldn't Want It To Skip!"

[erdega79]

so far only tdk has announced durabis hardcoating but that's why their discs are a bit more expensive as well. It will be interesting to compare them when they come out. I am sure it will be done soon

http://www.durabis.com/

Actually they are already selling but drives haven't come out yet

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?so....00&lnk=prsugg

TDK 25GB 2x BD-R Recordable Blu-ray Disc
Introducing TDK 25GB BD-R media, next-generation blue laser recordable discs offering massive storage capacity and blazingly fast transfer rates. From backing up large data directories to recording HD video, TDK Blu-ray Discs make it possible.

The high-sensitivity inorganic recording material utilized by TDK BD-R media is completely different than the recording materials used for CD or DVD. Composed of copper and silicon, TDK's exclusive CuSi recording material delivers remarkable, long-lasting performance. The recording material enables fast recording and playback speeds and also makes it possible to realize massive capacities through multi-layering.

DURABIS 2 protects the disc surface against scratches and resists smudges from fingerprints, providing error-free Blu-ray Disc performance. Hard coating technology pioneered by TDK is part of the Blu-ray specification, but only TDK has DURABIS 2, the most advanced hard coating formulation for Blu-ray Disc media.

[theknub]

joel,
my greatest concern about your post is that you have no idea if durabis works or not. as stated by shadow, it has been shown to go against steel wool and a screwdriver. if you think a disk should be more resistant than that even, you are nuts. how about you give your VHS tape to the dog, let him play with it, and then see if it works. or how about a screwdriver to the vhs cassette or steel wool to the vhs media?

now, i'm not saying if durabis works or not. i really hope it does, but i won't know for certain if it does or not until i own some. and really, i have had only one problem with a DVD and that was when it was dropped on concrete and then stepped on... whoops. if i step on a vhs cassette the same thing happens.

now, you spoke about a caddy in your first post. are you thinking of a removable caddy like the old nec cd-rom drives or a caddy or some cassette surrounding every disk? if you're talking about a removable caddy, you are running in circles. since obviously with this, you have to remove the disk every time and will most likely scratch it very quickly. if you are speaking of a cassette like system, just imagine the extra packaging let alone size. if you don't mind this, great for you. however, think that they were planning on a caddy system until it was proven how well the durabis coating worked. they wouldn't do a total system redesign if it was ineffective.

i am staying neutral in this arena since i really don't know. i only have the facts and reported information to go by for now (as only do you), so i reserve my judgement till the product hits the shelves and i have time to take some steel wool to it (seriously, i wont do that). i'm not going to baby my discs but i certainly am not anal about it either. remember, this is expensive technology and should be treated as such. if you think it should be able to be tossed around like a frisbee, buy a frisbee and save the discs.

[joel_reed]

I find it rather hillarious whenever I see someone give such a long winded speech on the 'amazing durabris technology', then almost immediatly say "Since I don't know, I'm staying neutral on this" ... were you even listening to your own words!

You know what ... if you want to see what I mean when I say REAL protection, then take a look at the picture below.

http://www.sg.hu/kep/2004_02/0207bluray7.jpg

[marzetta7]

Originally Posted by joel_reed

I find it rather hillarious whenever I see someone give such a long winded speech on the 'amazing durabris technology', then almost immediatly say "Since I don't know, I'm staying neutral on this" ... were you even listening to your own words!

You know what ... if you want to see what I mean when I say REAL protection, then take a look at the picture below.

http://www.sg.hu/kep/2004_02/0207bluray7.jpg

I find it rather hilarious that you are wasting keystrokes for something that isn't going to happen--a caddy. Caddies are not popular with the general public, live with it. Whether this provides more protection or not, the reality is that caddies have been shown to be failures when it comes to sales of physical optical media.

Moreover, I think the point a lot of people on this thread are trying to communicate to you is that Durabis, based on what the press is saying and based upon what has been shown to the public, ought to be quite more durable than existing bare disc technology. If that doesn't suffice, then just go out and buy a TDK Blu-ray disk that are already shipping and have a hey day if you are so skeptical. Heck the durability might even suprise you, and other pessimists alike.

[theknub]

Originally Posted by joel_reed

I find it rather hillarious whenever I see someone give such a long winded speech on the 'amazing durabris technology', then almost immediatly say "Since I don't know, I'm staying neutral on this" ... were you even listening to your own words!

where did i say "amazing durabis technology?" that isn't what i said at all. what i said, is that by the current data and information GIVEN, it is a much more durable product than cd or dvd's. however, we only are as good as the information that we have. so, if companies have lied to us, we have false information and the conclusion i have drawn is wrong. if they didn't lie, my conclusion is right. then, i followed this up by stating im not a blind follower and will reserve my final answer till i know how the real product performs.

You know what ... if you want to see what I mean when I say REAL protection, then take a look at the picture below.

http://www.sg.hu/kep/2004_02/0207bluray7.jpg

have you listened to your own words? can you tell me the ultimate downfall of that product? crack that nice little case, step on it, drop it, or accidentally use it as a coaster, and the product is finished. your movie/game or what not is done. the image you are bringing up is essentially a "prototype" launched in japan. while i have no problem with a caddy system, it does present other problems especially if it is permanent. so even if the caddy protects the disc, what's protecting the caddy? what happens if the caddy breaks in the drive? it seems what you are asking for is some ironclad product that will make it through fire and brimstone. obviously, there is nothing like this. by offering a product with no moving parts or external case, you do leave the media open to attack. however, the same problem with the media is present in external casing as you desire. so really, you are trading one problem for another. so, remove the problem of moving external parts and you are left with a directly presented media as we have today. so manufacturers try to design a protective coating like durabis. does it work, i can't tell you. but, i do like taking extraneous parts out of the equation. after all, that is one more thing to go wrong. if the resistance to scratches is just as good as DVD's im fine since i don't treat my things like crap. but if durabis is as good as advertised, i'm thrilled. so while i completely expect durabis to work as advertised, i reserve my final review till we know if it really works.

[zombie]

Originally Posted by joel_reed

You know what ... if you want to see what I mean when I say REAL protection, then take a look at the picture below.

http://www.sg.hu/kep/2004_02/0207bluray7.jpg

As marzetta7 already stated, like it or not, Blu-ray will not use the caddy. There was a point when I liked the idea of a caddy as well but from everything I've read about Durabis, the discs should be well protected. First and foremost, handle the discs with care and you won't need to worry about numerous scratches.

[joel_reed]

At this point I suppose it is too early to say what this protection will offer, but I'm still not sold on durabris's "advertising". (I use that word as an example, so don't get carried away with it's meaning!) I for one see nothing wrong with having a caddy like the picture I supplied, but apparently others do. I'm not sure how many of you are dropping their media on the ground and stepping on it, but whether it's protected or not it deserves to be broken in that case. All I want is a solid protection against scratches and fingerprints, so whoever offers that service in the best way, I'll buy it! (I just doubt it will be the durabris coating)

But you know what? Buy it for yourself and maybe you'll change your mind in time, (Or me for that matter) In the meantime ... have a nice day ...

[hagakure]

I have no problem with fingerprint and scatches while handling my current dvd media. Just keep your disc in its protective dvd case and only take it out when you need to access it and it should be fine. I don't know what the big fuss is about because if you treat your dvd well, it was last pretty long.