TV Rants thread (Show deaths, ratings, anger at networks etc.) - Blu-ray Forum

Groo The Perverted · 05-18-2011, 10:36 PM

So with so many of my favorite shows getting the axe this past year (Lie To Me, Chicago Code, Terriers, Human Target, The Event, just to name a few), it got me wondering. The suits always talk about "ratings" and the lack of them for specific shows. However, is that really something that we actually control?

They use, as far as I know, the Nielson system, which means ONLY those with Nielson boxes get counted for the ratings. And someone posted before, I think it was Wyldeman, that there are only like 25,000 boxes out there in the country? If so, that brings up a very serious situation here.

If say 2 million people are watching a show, and yet there are only 25,000 boxes out there, of which say 5,000 of them are watching that show, how is that a fair representation of a show's true audience?

When I saw it posted that there were that few boxes out there that just made my head spin. How can they just cancel and renew shows based on such a limited number? That's like a political poll interviewing fifty people and trying to make that indicative of what the country feels about a candidate. or political issue.

So at that end, does it REALLY matter what we watch, if we don't have a box? All these "watch show X this week and get the ratings up so the studios know that we are wanting the show to come back" are all for naught, are they not? Because no matter how many people are watching it, if they don't have a Nielson box, they are not being counted.

Or am I misreading the way this thing is done?

Alpha · 05-19-2011, 12:24 AM

I've always saw it as popularity. If a show is popular enough, it doesn't matter. The "box watchers" alone would be enough to satisfy expected ratings. And really, I don't think there's any other practical method to measure ratings besides DVR numbers.

Think of shows like Firefly. Cancelled. Wasn't as popular, but became popular after word spread of how awesome it was.

So basically, no, I don't think it matters much if we watch our favorite shows. What matters is if a good amount happen to watch AND like our favorite shows.

WyldeMan45 · 05-19-2011, 12:30 AM

The Nielsen boxes are incredibly outdated and completely pointless at this time. Until they learn to factor in DVR ratings into their actual figures as well as internet viewing like Hulu, shows people actual love and watch will never be represented. That's why I haven't watched anything live in 7 years. If it's not on my DVR then I don't watch it. We don't matter and that's the simple fact.

detective392 · 05-19-2011, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyldeMan45

The Nielsen boxes are incredibly outdated and completely pointless at this time. Until they learn to factor in DVR ratings into their actual figures as well as internet viewing like Hulu, shows people actual love and watch will never be represented. That's why I haven't watched anything live in 7 years. If it's not on my DVR then I don't watch it. We don't matter and that's the simple fact.

Exactly I don't have a ratings box so to me it doesn't matter if I watch it via download or just wait till DVD's come out. I don't think I've watched anything live this whole TV season actually. If I had a ratings box I would watch live but my viewing habits don't matter so I don't bother with live viewing.

Groo The Perverted · 05-19-2011, 12:55 AM

my points exactly. I get all my shows via DL. If my viewing mattered, I'd definitely watch it live, but it doesn't.

So all the people *****ing that people who download shows are hurting the ratings and are why shows get cancelled, are very misguided and ill informed.

WyldeMan45 · 05-19-2011, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groo The Perverted

my points exactly. I get all my shows via DL. If my viewing mattered, I'd definitely watch it live, but it doesn't.

So all the people *****ing that people who download shows are hurting the ratings and are why shows get cancelled, are very misguided and ill informed.

Or as I prefer to call them STUPID.

detective392 · 05-19-2011, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groo The Perverted

my points exactly. I get all my shows via DL. If my viewing mattered, I'd definitely watch it live, but it doesn't.

So all the people *****ing that people who download shows are hurting the ratings and are why shows get cancelled, are very misguided and ill informed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyldeMan45

Or as I prefer to call them STUPID.

Defiantly agree if I mattered in ratings I would watch them live but I don't so no matter how I watch the shows it doesn't affect anything.

WyldeMan45 · 05-19-2011, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by detective392

Defiantly agree if I mattered in ratings I would watch them live but I don't so no matter how I watch the shows it doesn't affect anything.

After 5 straight years of most of my favorites being canceled I realized I do not matter and haven't watched anything live in about 6 years.

detective392 · 05-19-2011, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyldeMan45

After 5 straight years of most of my favorites being canceled I realized I do not matter and haven't watched anything live in about 6 years.

Yeah I remember when I didn't know about rating box's and thought it only mattered by the total number of people who watched something that I watched everything live no matter what time or what I was doing. Found out that hard way when all my shows got canned that it did absolutely nothing.

HDMe · 05-19-2011, 02:37 AM

What they really need... is to establish some kind of universal format for reporting... then allow it to be programmed into cable and satellite set-top boxes (whether they be DVR or not)... and then you have the option (something clear and easy to select) to enable or disable the direct reporting of your choice of viewing.

In order to be valid... you would have to leave it enabled for some minimum time period or your votes would be thrown out... to keep people from turning it on while they watch one thing but turning it off for other things. You'd either have to be always on or you wouldn't count.

That would provide a way to count everybody except OTA viewers who are viewing directly on their TVs without cable or satellite.

As long as it is a clear opt-in scenario (disabled by default) then it would satisfy privacy rules... and IF you chose to disable yours, then you'd have no right or reason to complain if your show got cancelled since you chose not to have your vote counted.

jouille · 05-19-2011, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDMe

What they really need... is to establish some kind of universal format for reporting... then allow it to be programmed into cable and satellite set-top boxes (whether they be DVR or not)... and then you have the option (something clear and easy to select) to enable or disable the direct reporting of your choice of viewing.

In order to be valid... you would have to leave it enabled for some minimum time period or your votes would be thrown out... to keep people from turning it on while they watch one thing but turning it off for other things. You'd either have to be always on or you wouldn't count.

That would provide a way to count everybody except OTA viewers who are viewing directly on their TVs without cable or satellite.

As long as it is a clear opt-in scenario (disabled by default) then it would satisfy privacy rules... and IF you chose to disable yours, then you'd have no right or reason to complain if your show got cancelled since you chose not to have your vote counted.

That makes sense; therefore, it will never happen.

KilloWertz · 05-19-2011, 02:59 AM

As others have said, nope. The only shows I watch live are all the shows I watch on USA and also Justified. Otherwise I either just watch my shows on Blu-ray or record them. If it was possible, I'd watch the majority of the shows on Blu-ray actually so I didn't have to deal with multiple breaks during a season.

Groo The Perverted · 05-19-2011, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDMe

What they really need... is to establish some kind of universal format for reporting... then allow it to be programmed into cable and satellite set-top boxes (whether they be DVR or not)... and then you have the option (something clear and easy to select) to enable or disable the direct reporting of your choice of viewing.

In order to be valid... you would have to leave it enabled for some minimum time period or your votes would be thrown out... to keep people from turning it on while they watch one thing but turning it off for other things. You'd either have to be always on or you wouldn't count.

That would provide a way to count everybody except OTA viewers who are viewing directly on their TVs without cable or satellite.

As long as it is a clear opt-in scenario (disabled by default) then it would satisfy privacy rules... and IF you chose to disable yours, then you'd have no right or reason to complain if your show got cancelled since you chose not to have your vote counted.

Actually I believe they rate these things based on 15 or 30 minute increments (much like time clocks at work).

I've seen ratings articles talking about how something did good in the first 15-30 minutes, but then dropped off.

WyldeMan45 · 05-19-2011, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groo The Perverted

Actually I believe they rate these things based on 15 or 30 minute increments (much like time clocks at work).

I've seen ratings articles talking about how something did good in the first 15-30 minutes, but then dropped off.

There should be some kind of rating system, were you can score your thoughts on a star rating 1-5 at the end of an episode which is only accessible after you've viewed the entire episode. It would allow a proper rating based on people who actually viewed the series.

Walts Ghost · 05-19-2011, 03:39 AM

This is why I rarely watch things live anymore. None of us matter to the guys in the office killing our favorite shows. Why should I watch live then? We're not even factored into what they cancel in the long run. It's a flawed system that seriously needs to be worked out.

HDMe · 05-19-2011, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groo The Perverted

Actually I believe they rate these things based on 15 or 30 minute increments (much like time clocks at work).

I've seen ratings articles talking about how something did good in the first 15-30 minutes, but then dropped off.

True... I was just meaning that they would need (in my suggestion) to make you leave the tracking on more than just for the hour you are watching your favorite show. Some people, for example, would like to turn it off while they watch their PPV adult movie so no one knows they are watching it... then turn tracking back on for their other shows... but I think any valid tracking would have to require that you keep the system on the majority of the time to ensure it was really accurately measuring your viewing habits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyldeMan45

There should be some kind of rating system, were you can score your thoughts on a star rating 1-5 at the end of an episode which is only accessible after you've viewed the entire episode. It would allow a proper rating based on people who actually viewed the series.

Something along the lines of how eBay changed it so you could only rate a person with whom you had a transaction. In the early days, you could leave feedback for anyone... Same thing was true on iTunes for a while too, where you could leave feedback for something you had not bought.

I think it's fair to only let people rate something that they watched all the way through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walts Ghost

This is why I rarely watch things live anymore. None of us matter to the guys in the office killing our favorite shows. Why should I watch live then? We're not even factored into what they cancel in the long run. It's a flawed system that seriously needs to be worked out.

Yep... Knowing that my viewing habits really aren't counted, but are extrapolated from their nielsen families... well, it tells me that my watching it live doesn't matter to them since they don't want to count me.

EricJ · 05-19-2011, 10:32 AM

I'm convinced--and I'm not trying to be funny, here--networks no longer care at ALL whether we're watching on Monday at 9pm or not. It's not what the business is about anymore.

We've moved on to other options--like VOD and Hulu--that let us stagger our schedules and skip commercials, that networks now take their product completely to those avenues. And at every end credits now advertise "If you missed the show, catch it again at ABC.com!"
Programs are now a bulk commodity: No catchy opening themes, end credits scrolling by in a squooshed corner of the screen, and the next show loaded up within seconds, with no commercials in between.

So why are networks still airing them at all, instead of abandoning "obsolete" broadcast? Unfortunately, it's that one old relic: Advertisers paid to make the show, and the contract says the network airs them.
Doesn't matter whether the network staggers the show on a different night every week, or airs it three times in one week, as long as it's shown, their job is done, and it's on to the Blu-ray and download sales.
Practically the only way the networks know we're watching at all anymore is whether we're talking about the shows, which is why they all descend on Facebook marketing like vultures.

(In our next lesson, the "24 vs. Dancing With the Stars" polarization of series into homemade vaudeville/reality and complex season-long serial arcs.
Geez, I miss the days when somebody said "Tuesday" and you thought Happy Days, or "Thursday" and you thought Cheers.

)

racefreak619 · 05-19-2011, 10:53 AM

They should use torrent download numbers to determine how popular a show is, that would be much more accurate than the Nielsen numbers.

In Holland a TV show once did research on this measuring system for TV figures. They interviewed people who had this box hooked up to their TV. When you watch a show you also needed to enter with how many people you watched it. Normally you would expect them to enter their family members who watch it with them, but people confessed that when they like a show they sometimes enter 100 people are watching it with them (the maximum you can enter). This gives incredibly inaccurate numbers if every person does this for a show he likes. sometimes they just entered info in the box while they weren't watching a show, but were just taping it on dvd and watching something else live.

Most people they interviewed said they usually just play with it and don't take the task seriously. And these people are the ones who decide what the rest of us can watch the next season.

I'm assuming the system used in America is the same, so no wonder reality shows/talent shows get high ratings if people enter 100 people are viewing it with them.

HockeySlasher · 05-19-2011, 12:23 PM

Wait, wait wait.

You guys are telling me that there is programming, outside of sports, on TV???

Crap.

Last fall, my wife and I decided to cut the cord on cable. Anything we wanted to watch (The Office, Amazing Race, Deadliest Catch), we pulled up on Hulu, or downloaded it else where. The funny thing is, when I was going over some of the shows that were cancelled, she summed it up best when she said "So, we really didn't miss anything, did we?"

It is so hard to invest time into any shows nowadays because if it isn't a instant hit, it will get cancelled within 2 or 3 episodes.

What ticks me off is that good shows (as in good acting, good writing, may require some thinking) get axed to make more room for Biggest Loser or So You Think You Can Dance or even CSI: Fargo.

ARGGGH.

Yes. I'm still bitter that NBC cancelled Life.

Jobber8742 · 05-19-2011, 01:01 PM

The only way TV companies make money off broadcasting their shows is advertisement. They know everyone with a DVR skips the commercials, so those numbers are worthless in the eyes of the advertisers (the only ones that matter to the companies). Dowloading illegally brings up the same issue, and are also not included. To the studios, ideally you'd watch it live and sit through the commercials or you watch it online at sites like Hulu because they can force feed commercials there too.

05-18-2011, 10:36 PM	#1
Groo The Perverted Blu-ray Champion Member since:Aug 2008 Blu-ray collection:109 DVD collection:8 Trading Score:272	Does it REALLY matter if we watch our favorite shows? (Ratings Wise) So with so many of my favorite shows getting the axe this past year (Lie To Me, Chicago Code, Terriers, Human Target, The Event, just to name a few), it got me wondering. The suits always talk about "ratings" and the lack of them for specific shows. However, is that really something that we actually control? They use, as far as I know, the Nielson system, which means ONLY those with Nielson boxes get counted for the ratings. And someone posted before, I think it was Wyldeman, that there are only like 25,000 boxes out there in the country? If so, that brings up a very serious situation here. If say 2 million people are watching a show, and yet there are only 25,000 boxes out there, of which say 5,000 of them are watching that show, how is that a fair representation of a show's true audience? When I saw it posted that there were that few boxes out there that just made my head spin. How can they just cancel and renew shows based on such a limited number? That's like a political poll interviewing fifty people and trying to make that indicative of what the country feels about a candidate. or political issue. So at that end, does it REALLY matter what we watch, if we don't have a box? All these "watch show X this week and get the ratings up so the studios know that we are wanting the show to come back" are all for naught, are they not? Because no matter how many people are watching it, if they don't have a Nielson box, they are not being counted. Or am I misreading the way this thing is done?

05-19-2011, 10:32 AM	#17
EricJ Banned Member since:Jul 2007 Location:The Paradise of New England Blu-ray collection:6	I'm convinced--and I'm not trying to be funny, here--networks no longer care at ALL whether we're watching on Monday at 9pm or not. It's not what the business is about anymore. We've moved on to other options--like VOD and Hulu--that let us stagger our schedules and skip commercials, that networks now take their product completely to those avenues. And at every end credits now advertise "If you missed the show, catch it again at ABC.com!" Programs are now a bulk commodity: No catchy opening themes, end credits scrolling by in a squooshed corner of the screen, and the next show loaded up within seconds, with no commercials in between. So why are networks still airing them at all, instead of abandoning "obsolete" broadcast? Unfortunately, it's that one old relic: Advertisers paid to make the show, and the contract says the network airs them. Doesn't matter whether the network staggers the show on a different night every week, or airs it three times in one week, as long as it's shown, their job is done, and it's on to the Blu-ray and download sales. Practically the only way the networks know we're watching at all anymore is whether we're talking about the shows, which is why they all descend on Facebook marketing like vultures. (In our next lesson, the "24 vs. Dancing With the Stars" polarization of series into homemade vaudeville/reality and complex season-long serial arcs. Geez, I miss the days when somebody said "Tuesday" and you thought Happy Days, or "Thursday" and you thought Cheers. ) Last edited by EricJ; 05-19-2011 at 10:35 AM.

05-19-2011, 12:24 AM	#2
Alpha Blu-ray Guru Member since:Jan 2010 Location:The Island Trading Score:45	I've always saw it as popularity. If a show is popular enough, it doesn't matter. The "box watchers" alone would be enough to satisfy expected ratings. And really, I don't think there's any other practical method to measure ratings besides DVR numbers. Think of shows like Firefly. Cancelled. Wasn't as popular, but became popular after word spread of how awesome it was. So basically, no, I don't think it matters much if we watch our favorite shows. What matters is if a good amount happen to watch AND like our favorite shows.

05-19-2011, 12:30 AM	#3
WyldeMan45 Banned Member since:Oct 2008 Location:Western Washington Blu-ray collection:49 Trading Score:15	The Nielsen boxes are incredibly outdated and completely pointless at this time. Until they learn to factor in DVR ratings into their actual figures as well as internet viewing like Hulu, shows people actual love and watch will never be represented. That's why I haven't watched anything live in 7 years. If it's not on my DVR then I don't watch it. We don't matter and that's the simple fact.

05-19-2011, 12:55 AM	#5
Groo The Perverted Blu-ray Champion Member since:Aug 2008 Blu-ray collection:109 DVD collection:8 Trading Score:272	my points exactly. I get all my shows via DL. If my viewing mattered, I'd definitely watch it live, but it doesn't. So all the people *****ing that people who download shows are hurting the ratings and are why shows get cancelled, are very misguided and ill informed.

05-19-2011, 02:37 AM	#10
HDMe Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Jan 2010 Location:North Augusta, SC	What they really need... is to establish some kind of universal format for reporting... then allow it to be programmed into cable and satellite set-top boxes (whether they be DVR or not)... and then you have the option (something clear and easy to select) to enable or disable the direct reporting of your choice of viewing. In order to be valid... you would have to leave it enabled for some minimum time period or your votes would be thrown out... to keep people from turning it on while they watch one thing but turning it off for other things. You'd either have to be always on or you wouldn't count. That would provide a way to count everybody except OTA viewers who are viewing directly on their TVs without cable or satellite. As long as it is a clear opt-in scenario (disabled by default) then it would satisfy privacy rules... and IF you chose to disable yours, then you'd have no right or reason to complain if your show got cancelled since you chose not to have your vote counted.

05-19-2011, 02:59 AM	#12
KilloWertz Blu-ray Archduke Top contributor Member since:Dec 2008 Location:Columbiana, OH 4K collection:61 Blu-ray collection:1042 DVD collection:65 Blu-ray reviews:3 Trading Score:82	As others have said, nope. The only shows I watch live are all the shows I watch on USA and also Justified. Otherwise I either just watch my shows on Blu-ray or record them. If it was possible, I'd watch the majority of the shows on Blu-ray actually so I didn't have to deal with multiple breaks during a season.

05-19-2011, 03:39 AM	#15
Walts Ghost Blu-ray Prince Top contributor Member since:Jun 2010 Location:Arizona 4K collection:783 Blu-ray collection:3086 DVD collection:177 iTunes collection:34 Blu-ray reviews: 33 Trading Score:1	This is why I rarely watch things live anymore. None of us matter to the guys in the office killing our favorite shows. Why should I watch live then? We're not even factored into what they cancel in the long run. It's a flawed system that seriously needs to be worked out.

05-19-2011, 10:53 AM	#18
racefreak619 Senior Member Top contributor Member since:Jan 2010 Blu-ray collection:125 DVD collection:5	They should use torrent download numbers to determine how popular a show is, that would be much more accurate than the Nielsen numbers. In Holland a TV show once did research on this measuring system for TV figures. They interviewed people who had this box hooked up to their TV. When you watch a show you also needed to enter with how many people you watched it. Normally you would expect them to enter their family members who watch it with them, but people confessed that when they like a show they sometimes enter 100 people are watching it with them (the maximum you can enter). This gives incredibly inaccurate numbers if every person does this for a show he likes. sometimes they just entered info in the box while they weren't watching a show, but were just taping it on dvd and watching something else live. Most people they interviewed said they usually just play with it and don't take the task seriously. And these people are the ones who decide what the rest of us can watch the next season. I'm assuming the system used in America is the same, so no wonder reality shows/talent shows get high ratings if people enter 100 people are viewing it with them.

05-19-2011, 12:23 PM	#19
HockeySlasher Power Member Member since:Oct 2008 Location:St. Paul, MN iTunes collection:563 Trading Score:39	Wait, wait wait. You guys are telling me that there is programming, outside of sports, on TV??? Crap. Last fall, my wife and I decided to cut the cord on cable. Anything we wanted to watch (The Office, Amazing Race, Deadliest Catch), we pulled up on Hulu, or downloaded it else where. The funny thing is, when I was going over some of the shows that were cancelled, she summed it up best when she said "So, we really didn't miss anything, did we?" It is so hard to invest time into any shows nowadays because if it isn't a instant hit, it will get cancelled within 2 or 3 episodes. What ticks me off is that good shows (as in good acting, good writing, may require some thinking) get axed to make more room for Biggest Loser or So You Think You Can Dance or even CSI: Fargo. ARGGGH. Yes. I'm still bitter that NBC cancelled Life.

05-19-2011, 01:01 PM	#20
Jobber8742 Expert Member Top ranked HT gallery Member since:May 2008 Location:IL Home Theater Gallery:24 Blu-ray collection:3232 DVD collection:796 Trading Score:23	The only way TV companies make money off broadcasting their shows is advertisement. They know everyone with a DVR skips the commercials, so those numbers are worthless in the eyes of the advertisers (the only ones that matter to the companies). Dowloading illegally brings up the same issue, and are also not included. To the studios, ideally you'd watch it live and sit through the commercials or you watch it online at sites like Hulu because they can force feed commercials there too.

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