blu-ray disappointment

[cws2882]

So now that blu-ray is out all I can think about now is when are they going to start putting out all the movies on duel layer 50 gig disks, or our we going to be stuck with most of them on 25 gig? I am sorry you blu-ray makers, but your video sucks pretty bad compared to hd-dvd. At least this is my impression with some of the initial movies. If you need more space because you are using mpeg2 instead of mpeg4, then use the duel layer disks. I wish they wouldnt have even launched this player without all the disks duel layers.

I look at it this way, hd-dvd uses 30 gigs on each disk, plus they have a much better video compression algorithm, and they use the new lossless hd audio formats (some do anyway). Blu-ray uses a crappy mpeg2 compression and doesnt use any lossless compression algorithms for audio. this takes up lots of space, and they currenly have less space than hd-dvd (25 vs 30 gigs). I am giving the blu-ray camp until xmass to start putting out the majority of the movies on duel layer disks and by that time, if they are still overprice and lower quality, i am going to be looking into hd-dvd.

[zombie]

I've read numerous reviews and saw two demos of Hitch today, one at Best Buy and the other at Circuit City. Regardless of being connected properly via HDMI and to 1080p TVs as well as having the correct output settings on the player, each demo looked dreadful compared to the quality I'm used to on most HD DVDs. I'm looking forward to dual layer discs as well, that or a better codec. This advancement can't happen soon enough. I had high expectations and the current crop of titles are disappointing indeed.

[suprmallet]

It is a shame that these first ones were rushed. But I still feel this first round is meant only to combat the HD-DVD sales among very early adopters. Sony is banking on the PS3 to really sell blu-ray, so I imagine we'll get better transfers and discs (not of the same movies, mind you) in November.

[georgir]

but from the reviews of terminator and underworld i saw on this site, i thought BD looks quite good. maybe they just messed up hitch?

[suprmallet]

Hitch, Fifth Element, XXX, and House of Flying Daggers from what I've heard.

I actually ordered T2, Fifth Element, and Chronos from Amazon. Then I saw the bad review on Fifth Element. So I changed it to T2, Terminator, and House of Flying Daggers. Then I heard bad things about House of Flying Daggers. So then I thought, shit, maybe I should just get a HD-DVD player. But by now, spending $500 on a player for which I'm only going to get four or five movies at the moment seemed a tad much, especially since I have literally piles of unwatched DVDs. So I'm going to wait it out. If I find the Toshiba real cheap ($200 or under), then I'd make the plunge.

[partridge]

Hang on, what? BD movies are no good? I thought BD and HD-DVD were virtually identical in quality? What's the background story here? I though HD-DVD used mpeg2 too.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by partridge

Hang on, what? BD movies are no good? I thought BD and HD-DVD were virtually identical in quality? What's the background story here? I though HD-DVD used mpeg2 too.

You beat me to it - well written.

If one want's to compare Toshiba and Samsung go ahead - or one movie vs another or compare encoding formats, as appart from capacity, menu software and DRM both formats are so close to identical it's not funny - in fact using only Single layer BD I think they can get 27GB - so there is not even an impediment to them both using the codec at the same bit rate.

I would suggest that Sony player mabe a little stronger in the Video and Audio sections than the Samsung.

Anyone that does wish to compare the HD-DVD and BD will need to wait until HD-DVD burners are available and transfer the same content to both disks, then use the same monitor players will need to output the same resolution - preferably both 1080p, but remember you are only comparing specific pieces of hardware.

[cws2882]

Originally Posted by partridge

Hang on, what? BD movies are no good? I thought BD and HD-DVD were virtually identical in quality? What's the background story here? I though HD-DVD used mpeg2 too.

No HD-DVD uses mpeg4, which gives you the same quality will less space. Sony does not use mpeg4 because they apparently hold patents on mpeg2 and would have to pay fees to use mpeg4. Blu-ray and HD-DVD would be identical is blu-ray would use the duel layer disks, but apparently they are reducing the quality in order to get all the material to fit on a 25G single layer disk. There are, however, at least two blu-ray movies that look good. But there are at least 3 that i know of that dont look so good.

[partridge]

That can't be right, the mpeg standards are open source, in that they are an agreed standard available to anyone. mpeg4 is just the latest version.

See the FAQ from this very site:

"What video codecs will Blu-ray support?

MPEG-2 - enhanced for HD, also used for playback of DVDs and HDTV recordings.
MPEG-4 AVC - part of the MPEG-4 standard also known as H.264 (High Profile and Main Profile).
SMPTE VC-1 - standard based on Microsoft's Windows Media Video (WMV) technology.

Please note that this simply means that all Blu-ray players and recorders will have to support playback of these video codecs, it will still be up to the movie studios to decide which video codec(s) they use for their releases."

[cws2882]

Originally Posted by partridge

That can't be right, the mpeg standards are open source, in that they are an agreed standard available to anyone. mpeg4 is just the latest version.

I may be wrong, but then why wouldnt they use mpeg4? Even if the standard is open source, which it "might" be, I am willing to bet that the software that the studios use to compress the video isn't. It makes no since not to use mpeg4 unless sony or other blu-ray studios would lose money to do so. I would think that you would still have to pay royalties if you were selling content using mpeg2 or mpeg4. anyone out here know for sure?

[partridge]

Perhaps they believe that to use mpeg4, however good it is, is a compression step that is unecessary on the higher capacity blu-ray disc?

But as the FAQ says, BD supports it, and it is up to the studio to decide how the disc content is encoded.

[TwinTurboJosh]

Well obviously format wars are neither won or lost in the first couple of months, but Sony missed a huge opportunity to end the war now and crush HD-DVD before it gains momentum. I just hope either BD-50 or different video codecs will be the standard by the end of the year, especially considering BD players will likely outnumber HD-DVD players 100:1 by the end of the year (Thanks to PS3)

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by cws2882

I may be wrong, but then why wouldnt they use mpeg4? Even if the standard is open source, which it "might" be, I am willing to bet that the software that the studios use to compress the video isn't. It makes no since not to use mpeg4 unless sony or other blu-ray studios would lose money to do so. I would think that you would still have to pay royalties if you were selling content using mpeg2 or mpeg4. anyone out here know for sure?

The standards are not truly open source. They are internationally accepted standards. However, the developers of pieces of the standards still hold patents, etc. to various pieces of it. Various groups (MPEGLA for example) have been set up so that licensees of one of the standards pays licensing fees to one organization for a specific standard and then the group (e.g., MPEGLA) disburses the relavant amount to the individual IP owners.

As I understand it MPEG-2, MPEG-4 Part 10 (AVC) and VC-1 all have licensing fees, though I don't know the relative dollar values of each.

[marzetta7]

Originally Posted by cws2882

No HD-DVD uses mpeg4, which gives you the same quality will less space. Sony does not use mpeg4 because they apparently hold patents on mpeg2 and would have to pay fees to use mpeg4. Blu-ray and HD-DVD would be identical is blu-ray would use the duel layer disks, but apparently they are reducing the quality in order to get all the material to fit on a 25G single layer disk. There are, however, at least two blu-ray movies that look good. But there are at least 3 that i know of that dont look so good.

My understanding was that Sony went the MPEG-2 route because they already had software in place that would allow them to output discs quicker seeing how they were used to the more familiar MPEG-2 codec. Granted, it appears they are getting burned now because of their initial choice here.

Also, I just wanted to reiterate that MPEG4 will most likely be used on other Blu-ray titles. The choice of the codec is entirely up to the studios--Fox, Disney, Paramount, Warner, Lionsgate, MGM, Sony Pictures, etc. So, considering that Warner's initial offerings for HD DVD were MPEG4, I would think they will be doing the same on their Blu-ray titles. Furthermore, if you are upset regarding the choice of codec, the responsibility here lies with Sony Pictures, and not with the entire BDA.

I'm thinking given the initial impressions of the public, a lot of the other studios will be encoding with MPEG4 or will be waiting for DL discs in the fall.

[cws2882]

Originally Posted by marzetta7

I'm thinking given the initial impressions of the public, a lot of the other studios will be encoding with MPEG4 or will be waiting for DL discs in the fall.

I hope you are correct about this. If not, i will be forced to do a complete 180 and jump abort the microsoft and hd-dvd camp. Of course i will at least wait and see what the other studios do before i give up completely on blu-ray.

[suprmallet]

As some people mentioned, Sony used MPEG 2 because they have encoding software for it right now, and it was easier to get these discs out using it. Sony will probably use MPEG 4 in the future, but not VC-1, as that would entail giving money to Microsoft.

Another big problem is using PCM for their audio. Uncompressed audio takes up a ton of space. If they are being cheap and not paying Dolby or DTS then that would hurt a lot of BD discs, even if the video is encoded differently and they get dual-layer discs out.

[Ian110769]

I don't believe this, I was all but 100% sold on Blu-ray as the way forward and they go do this and make me wonder. It reminds me of the bad old days with DVD where you would get shoddy no-extras discs on flippers i.e. you had to actually turn the thing over part way through the film. I can only hope that this is indeed early rush jobs only and that by the time PS3 comes out it all sorted. What about the sub-standard releases and the odds they will get better re-releases - some of my favourite films, the Terminator movies, are in that early lot! I have to wonder if maybe this really is Betamax vs VHS all over again, that is the better format will be the one that loses, because I still feel Blu-ray will do best regardless of how good it ultimately proves to be compared to HD-DVD!

[suprmallet]

I promise you there will be a re-release of every launch day title, as Sony is the king of re-releases. Just don't expect them to come out right away.

[zombie]

Originally Posted by suprmallet

I promise you there will be a re-release of every launch day title, as Sony is the king of re-releases. Just don't expect them to come out right away.

Agreed. This is frustrating to me because I was interested in several of the launch titles now I'll have to wait even longer to see them in true HD glory.

[rgb]

So is the consensus that we will start seeing dual-layer blu-ray disks by November?