Predicted Response from Paramount and HD-DVD Zealots

[ikbradley]

Champ Kind: What's this?

Wes Mantooth: Well, well, well, Ron Burgundy and the Channel 4 News Team.

Ron Burgundy: Hello, Wes Mantooth, Hello, Evening News team.

Wes Mantooth: Nice clothes, gentlemen! I didn't know that the Salvation Army was having a sale. Am I right? Am I right? Look at these guys!

Brick Tamland: Hey, where did you get those clothes, the...toilet...store?

Wes Mantooth: What are you doing on our station's turf, Burgundy? You're about to get a serious beat down.

Champ Kind: I will smash your face into a car windshield, and then take your mother Dorothy Mantooth out for a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

Wes Mantooth: Dorothy Mantooth is a saint! You understand me? Dorothy Mantooth is a saint!

Ron Burgundy: Hey, leave the mothers out of this. It's unnecessary. Besides, I'm sure Wes here is just upset about finishing second in the ratings again.

Wes Mantooth: That's completely uncalled for, Burgundy. You know those rating systems are flawed. They don't take in account houses that have... uh... more than two television sets... and...other things of that nature.

Ron Burgundy: I guess I have to take you at your word, No. 2. You have a great day, fellas, we'll see you around the bend.

[SpikesBluBlooded]

Took me a minute. I was halfway through writing a "WTF" response when it finally hit me.

You're right, it will be all smack-talking, insults, and denial of the facts, but in the end they'll still be number 2...

Nice one.

[vw mofo]

As I said in another thread, the BDA played well last week. HOWEVER, just like most BD supporters like to claim how many more copies of Transfomers would have sold if they had supported BD, it's JUST as fair to say how badly BD would have been destroyed in sales last week without that bogo sale.

[SS316SRV]

Originally Posted by vw mofo

As I said in another thread, the BDA played well last week. HOWEVER, just like most BD supporters like to claim how many more copies of Transfomers would have sold if they had supported BD, it's JUST as fair to say how badly BD would have been destroyed in sales last week without that bogo sale.

If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle.

[ikbradley]

Originally Posted by vw mofo

As I said in another thread, the BDA played well last week. HOWEVER, just like most BD supporters like to claim how many more copies of Transfomers would have sold if they had supported BD, it's JUST as fair to say how badly BD would have been destroyed in sales last week without that bogo sale.

That's fine. But it's not the case. Unrealized possibilities don't matter. Only the result does; that being the BDA still can lay claim to the best selling HD title in its first week, 300, and that the BDA has a 9 month unbeaten track record. Here is another fact: The BDA released nothing this week and a group of limited catalogue titles bested the best selling HD-DVD title in its first week.

That hurts.

It's kind of ironic that Anchorman is a Paramount/Dreamworks' title.

[davidPS3]

Originally Posted by vw mofo

As I said in another thread, the BDA played well last week. HOWEVER, just like most BD supporters like to claim how many more copies of Transfomers would have sold if they had supported BD, it's JUST as fair to say how badly BD would have been destroyed in sales last week without that bogo sale.

I think that it was a brillant move on the part of the BDA and their supporting studios and the retailers to have the sale. I think that the Blu team has been playing this game/war like gentlemen. No crowing or playing nasty like the Red team. What they did to counter a HUGE release for the Red team was fair and clean in my opinion.
I personally can't wait to see and hear what the Red team has to say about their loss. Once again we will treated to quite the spin and alternative reality they live in.

[davidPS3]

Originally Posted by vw mofo

Until we see CONCRETE proof that 115k copies sold vs. the 190k that Paramount said sold, I'm not believeing or disbelieving either claim. I am more likely to believe numbers from someone who counts ALL of the sales vs a claim that does NOT include all retailers selling a product.

The BDA dodged a HUGE bullet last week, but at what expense? How much money was lost by giving away movies? How many people are going to sit around now and wait for the next BOGO sale instead of just buying as normal?

I guess after all of this we can debunk one myth... Price ***DOES*** matter.

Sorry to keep countering you, but to be fair, how about the Red team and the money they have LOST. How about paying for support? How about the money they are loosing on players? How about the free give-aways of disc's with players? (yes, blu offers this as well, but the red team has offered double the amount of what the blu team has offered). And I believe there was a BOGO offered as well for the Red Team last week. More important, the Red team has put out so much negative spin that is or really has got to be hurting them. The bottom line is that Blu continues to win week after week. Yes, price does matter, but both teams are playing the game.

[cawgijoe]

Originally Posted by vw mofo

Until we see CONCRETE proof that 115k copies sold vs. the 190k that Paramount said sold, I'm not believeing or disbelieving either claim. I am more likely to believe numbers from someone who counts ALL of the sales vs a claim that does NOT include all retailers selling a product.

The BDA dodged a HUGE bullet last week, but at what expense? How much money was lost by giving away movies? How many people are going to sit around now and wait for the next BOGO sale instead of just buying as normal?

I guess after all of this we can debunk one myth... Price ***DOES*** matter.

What huge bullet? Most of us were prepared to concede HD-DVD this week due to the release of Transformers.

The huge bullet has been leveled at HD-DVD this whole year......they haven't won a week yet.

I'm not sitting around waiting for the next BOGO....can we say Spiderman Trilogy next week...

[E-Dogg]

Look at the response from BobbyB....


Idiots I tell you!!!!

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/show...484#post387484

[ikbradley]

It would be interesting to see Toshiba's numbers for its home eletronics/entertainment division.

Honestly, if anyone can find reference that would be great.

As it stands, the so-called price advantage of Toshiba is not sustainable. Correct me if any of the following are incorrect (I don't have the time to link)

HD-DVD does not require a licensing fee from studios;
Toshiba and its conglomerate subsidize manufacturing of media;
The market does not currently have an console alternative to Toshiba, other than the speculated Venturer and duel-format offerings; and,
Toshiba is subsidizing the sale of its low-end players. It also is responsible for paying the promotional offerings.


I have to tell you, as a long-term business strategy, the shareholders will not permit that kind of reckless spending. Yes, Toshiba does have a handsome nestegg from its amazing role in the development of DVD (no question), and continues to reap the benefits. However, if more people adopt the HD format, this cuts off another consumer purchasing a DVD to which they were entitled to some money, and because they are not collecting a licensing fee from the studios, they don't gain anything from its new found HD-DVD base.

In the end, the predatory pricing and subsidizing low-end loss leader consoless, lack of studio and manufacture support and continued undercutting from its favoured competition, is going to lead to a very big fall for Toshiba.

Is any of this wrong? If so, please correct me, because I would rather have 100% accurate information, than just FUD.

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by vw mofo

Until we see CONCRETE proof that 115k copies sold vs. the 190k that Paramount said sold, I'm not believeing or disbelieving either claim. I am more likely to believe numbers from someone who counts ALL of the sales vs a claim that does NOT include all retailers selling a product.

The BDA dodged a HUGE bullet last week, but at what expense? How much money was lost by giving away movies? How many people are going to sit around now and wait for the next BOGO sale instead of just buying as normal?

I guess after all of this we can debunk one myth... Price ***DOES*** matter.

yup it shure does...the BDA does indeed know this ..pick your battles... ,
look at the markets that both formats are in ..and ask your self which format sells more disc's month after month...?

How do you lower the cost per disc..by selling more disc's which format sells more disc's..that answer will always be between the two formats Blu-Ray, unless the HD DVD backers did the smart thing and opened up the HD DVD format to other markets that Standard CD and Standard DVD format are in.

Blu-Ray is already opened into those other markets that CD and DVD are in.

Thus this little sales stunt's that Blu-Ray and HD DVD backer do in the Movie markets do not realy matter in the grand scheme of things it matters who can lower their cost to the consumer faster with the cost of the Disc's being the main factor. $30.00 a movie is not cutting it for the Majority of Consumer's the BDA does indeed know this also.

But $60.00 per Blu-Ray game disc is a whole other story..already Blu-Ray disc's are already selling in the Millions of Copy's sold the more Blu-Ray disc's sold the faster they can lower the cost per Disc to the consumer to buy.

low costing player's are great and all but when your Movies cost $30.00+ for a single movie...! .J6P is not investing in the formats right now except if there was another way of offsetting the lower adoption rate.
the playstation 3 is doing exactly what its market design to do sell more games and lower the cost on the movies to boot.

i see a number of people getting worked up over nothing . If HD DVD was in other markets to offset HD DVD movie prices that would be a challenge for Blu-Ray no doubt. but the mere fact that HD DVD is not in those Other Disc sale markets is what's going to make sure Blu-Ray wins.

Blu-Ray is a format designed: to replace Standard DVD LATER IN THE FUTURE
HD DVD is a format designed: as a stop gap format to DIGITAL DOWNLOADS

[Slapper]

Originally Posted by vw mofo

Here's the thing though. Does anyone have PROOF that Toshiba is losing money on players? We do concerning the PS3 to the tune of ungodly amounts of money.

And for as dishonest as you say the red team is, there are just as many dishonest deals in the blu camp. I will also have to respectfully disagree with you that the BDA is playing fair. BOTH sides are dirty...

I disagree. Aggressive pricing, even subsidizing pricing, is not dirty at all. Happens all the time at the retail level. They do this to get you "in the door". They figure once you're in you'll buy something else along with the "great deal" that got you "in the door" in the first place.

Now, paying a company to stop manufacturing another product is borderline antitrust. Fortunately for Toshiba, Paramount has a great deal of experience with antitrust and I'm sure they had all their asses, errr, assets covered before the "deal" went through.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...Pictures,_Inc.

[Slapper]

Originally Posted by joeorc

yup it shure does...the BDA does indeed know this ..pick your battles... ,
look at the markets that both formats are in ..and ask your self which format sells more disc's month after month...?

How do you lower the cost per disc..by selling more disc's which format sells more disc's..that answer will always be between the two formats Blu-Ray, unless the HD DVD backers did the smart thing and opened up the HD DVD format to other markets that Standard CD and Standard DVD format are in.

Blu-Ray is already opened into those other markets that CD and DVD are in.

Thus this little sales stunt's that Blu-Ray and HD DVD backer do in the Movie markets do not realy matter in the grand scheme of things it matters who can lower their cost to the consumer faster with the cost of the Disc's being the main factor. $30.00 a movie is not cutting it for the Majority of Consumer's the BDA does indeed know this also.

But $60.00 per Blu-Ray game disc is a whole other story..already Blu-Ray disc's are already selling in the Millions of Copy's sold the more Blu-Ray disc's sold the faster they can lower the cost per Disc to the consumer to buy.

low costing player's are great and all but when your Movies cost $30.00+ for a single movie...! .J6P is not investing in the formats right now except if there was another way of offsetting the lower adoption rate.
the playstation 3 is doing exactly what its market design to do sell more games and lower the cost on the movies to boot.

i see a number of people getting worked up over nothing . If HD DVD was in other markets to offset HD DVD movie prices that would be a challenge for Blu-Ray no doubt. but the mere fact that HD DVD is not in those Other Disc sale markets is what's going to make sure Blu-Ray wins.

Blu-Ray is a format designed: to replace Standard DVD LATER IN THE FUTURE
HD DVD is a format designed: as a stop gap format to DIGITAL DOWNLOADS

I think we need to make things a little more clear regarding the higher pricing at the retail level. The higher pricing at B&Ms is mostly the "fault" of B&M stores. The SRPs of hi-def movies are typically only $5 more than the SRP of the DVD. It's just that the B&Ms are not moving enough quantity of the hi-def version to justify lowering the price to just $5 more than the DVD. That's why B&Ms have to calculate shelf space cost vs volume that sells. Right now, the volume for Blu is just not there.

Take Ratatouille for example. SRP of the DVD is $29.99 but will sell at B&Ms for around $15.99. That's a whopping $14 difference. The SRP of the Blu-ray is $34.99 but will likely sell at $24.99-29.99. That is only $5-10 off. They have to do this due to the quantity being sold vs the amount of shelf space the item takes. They have to calculate in their "losses" when determining a price in order to maintain the same "profitability".

Prices will come down for Blu-ray movies when retailers start selling more quantity consistently, but I don't think the SRP (or cost to the retailers from the manufacturer) will go down much, if at all. Maybe next year we'll see some day-and-date Blu-ray movies go below the $20 threshold consisitently at B&M.

(I'm glad these hi-def boxes are smaller... )

[vw mofo]

Originally Posted by joeorc

i see a number of people getting worked up over nothing . If HD DVD was in other markets to offset HD DVD movie prices that would be a challenge for Blu-Ray no doubt. but the mere fact that HD DVD is not in those Other Disc sale markets is what's going to make sure Blu-Ray wins.

Blu-Ray is a format designed: to replace Standard DVD LATER IN THE FUTURE
HD DVD is a format designed: as a stop gap format to DIGITAL DOWNLOADS

Define other markets. Games? Give it time, if this stupid xbox ever shows up with an internal HD DVD drive, it will happen and there's NO reason HD DVD games could not be played over the currently available ad on drive. It's an externally attached drive and is no different that the one inside it. I will say this though, Sony was VERY smart to get the PC support out of the gates as fast as they did.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by vw mofo

And for as dishonest as you say the red team is, there are just as many dishonest deals in the blu camp. I will also have to respectfully disagree with you that the BDA is playing fair. BOTH sides are dirty...

Keep in mind we wouldn't be talking about 110K v. 190K or dodging bullets had Paramount not been paid off to not support Blu-ray.

There's dirty, and then dirty.

Gary

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by vw mofo

Define other markets. Games? Give it time, if this stupid xbox ever shows up with an internal HD DVD drive, it will happen and there's NO reason HD DVD games could not be played over the currently available ad on drive. It's an externally attached drive and is no different that the one inside it. I will say this though, Sony was VERY smart to get the PC support out of the gates as fast as they did.

yes that is exactly what i am talking about..and if microsoft has its way...HD DVD will never be used for games..thats a problem. the fact that Microsoft would rather the content not be on a disc it would rather have the content be disc less to be the standard..DIGITAL DOWNLOADS Microsoft has made that known from the start. HD DVD was never meant to replace DVD just expand DVD until DIGITAL DOWNLOADS ARE THE STANDARD. Microsoft stated many times Blu-Ray and HD DVD is not needed for games.


and for your statement about getting the PC support off the bat fast...it was not fast the BDA which is not just SONY decided that Blu-Ray would be the replacement before even HD DVD was even had their first OPTICAL DRIVE ON THE MARKET. not just Sony other CE optical drive companies made Blu-Ray optical drive's and recorders before this "so called format war even started" back in Apr 2003 Sony and other companies had put out Blu-Ray recorders on the market in JAPAN and ASIA. its no wonder they had the PC industry support..Blu-Ray was first out the gate with recording Blu-Ray media

HD DVD just had their NET ENABLED INTERACTIVE software done first ..thats because the BDA did not choose HDI and decided on JAVA over HDI because they view Java has a more robust capability that HDI does not have..THAT'S EXACTLY WHY THIS SO CALLED FORMAT WAR IS WHAT WE HAVE NOW BECAUSE OF HDI and Microsoft. if the BDA would have allowed HDI we would not have had a "so called format war at all and HD DVD would not be even in the picture"
and that's the truth...

[GasCat]

Originally Posted by vw mofo

So you don't consider Sony paying off Target to only sell Blu-ray players and limit HD DVD sales by paying for increased shelf space as dirty? I sure as hell do. What about Blockbuster? And if you don't think there were "incentives" given to Fox, MGM, Disney, and whomever else, I've got some nice beach front property in Oklahoma to sell you. BOTH sides are dirty and play it to the maximum extent legally allowed.

Anyways, great talking points fella's. It's nice to have a debate without being accused of having an alterior motive.

Consumers have thousands of different stores they can purchase HD-DVD. Target is not the only retailer. Free competition is still in play. Had Target made a poor business decision consumers would go to their competitors stores. Consumers have choice.

When you look at the studios the entire product line was cut off from the majority of their customers. We can't go to another store and purchase Transformers.

Typically consumers choose which products they want and at what price they are willing to pay. HD-DVD is closer to a state run business dictating to consumers what they want. Why do you think it's RED?

[Blu-Light]

Originally Posted by vw mofo

Here's the thing though. Does anyone have PROOF that Toshiba is losing money on players? We do concerning the PS3 to the tune of ungodly amounts of money.

And for as dishonest as you say the red team is, there are just as many dishonest deals in the blu camp. I will also have to respectfully disagree with you that the BDA is playing fair. BOTH sides are dirty...

Good grief,
You might as well just join them..

[GasCat]

Originally Posted by vw mofo

Well, if by them you mean HD DVD, you haven't been paying attention. I already own an HD DVD player. When Blu-ray gets their sh!t together, finalizes their spec, and can get a player on the market that is NOT a PS3 for under $300 I will be purple. Until then I will NOT pay money to beta test for Sony.

LOL! Why are you here? You haven't even purchased a Blu-ray player? I guess that explains your idiotic prior statements and lack of logic.

[vw mofo]

I have argued VERY maturely (which is something that the VAST majority of the users on this website need to learn), and have NEVER once resorted to name calling like you just did.

I am NOT going to answer why I am here again. Use the search button and figure it out for your damned self.