The uselessness of dual layer

[Chris Beveridge]

For anyone who has been following a number of threads elsewhere recently, is it just me or do many of those who aren't actively purchasing BD releases seem to have changed their meme recently? With so many dual layered BD discs being announced, including titles from Warner that just barely go over the 25 mark, dual layer is being denounced as useless and just for extras.

The previous meme, as most recall, alternated between dual layer being science fiction, incredibly rare, for really long movies only and probably a few other things. Now they don't mean anything at all because Warner is going to just put 30gb HD DVD releases on there.

There are two things to understand about this. First, it means that dual-format companies aren't quite so restricted in releasing on BD in that they don't have to sacrifice on extras or audio. They can just be like EA Games and port to both and be done with it. Even if it's minimal, it provides balance.

The more important thing is that dual layer will give the single-format companies a chance to really shine. Since they will NOT be restricted to a 30gb limit they can go much bigger and grander. Fox, Sony, Disney and independents doing BD only will be able to work on their releases without worry of making sure they can fit on both formats. Just like with video games, WB, Paramount will be reliable releases on both formats. But just like MS, Sony and Nintendo, "first party games" will be the ones that will be the key draws to the format.

Right now, HD DVD has key draws of Universal titles and WB titles with IME. Once November hits and Fox provides its key draws, Sony gets a few more announcements out and Disney gets rolling, we're going to be in a treasure of riches.

I'm just excited and get more so each day.

[Dave]

Not again!
Haven't you been here all that time since everyone thought that 16MB memory will be too much, that 10GB HDD was is useless and waste of money?That 650MB CD is too big? ... and so on

Come on! We live in ever expanding world (in every sence).

Now (even before the beginig) the movies are 27-28GB. What is HD DVD going to do when these movies just cant fit on HD DVD disc? They dont yet have even a prototype of 45GB disc (not to mention how much it will cost)...

The cost of BLU-RAY per GB is lower than HD DVD.
This (BD) future proof thing is the only way that will save your (so badly protected) pocket from throwing once again money for another format in 1-2 years...

Get real. We need it!, desperately!

[Jazar]

Good post. Couple comments I'd like to make.

Originally Posted by Chris Beveridge

Right now, HD DVD has key draws of Universal titles and WB titles with IME. Once November hits and Fox provides its key draws, Sony gets a few more announcements out and Disney gets rolling, we're going to be in a treasure of riches.

This is the final milestone and I'm extrmely anxious to see it pass. Once BDJ comes into full use then HD DVD has NOTHING over BD (as everyone innitially assumed with the given specs).

Well there's one more big milestone ("the big one") unrealated to BD spec which is sales. Right now HD DVD is selling better then BD. How much is pure speculation based on Amazon's ranking which is anything but scientific but BD definitely needs to reach a wider audience with cheaper hardware. November will be a big indicator with the release of the PS3 and sales of at least 400k overnight. I should hope that BD titles will jump dramatically and climb from there.

The doomsday scenario is that PS3 will not skyrocket BD sales over HD DVD. With the Xbox 360 addon competiting and the heavy push by Universal and even Warner, the HD DVD sales continue to suprass BD. This, however unlikely, would be nothing short of disasterous.

Regardless CE units better have a dramatic price reduction in 2007 because these $1k+ players will never be mainstream. Januaray's CES event will give a good indication on where these companies stand and hopefully Toshiba will still be the only major HD DVD supplier.

Finally, movie studios need to get off their asses and bring some blockbuster titles to BD. None of this Eight Below or The Big Hit or even Click. I'm talking Spiderman 2, X-men 1-3, Pirates of the Caribbean 1 & 2, Da Vinci Code. Maybe not the highest AAA titles but with 1.3 million PS3 units by the end of the year in the US alone there will be sales if the studios give people something to chew on.

[ProvenFlipper]

Great points Chris!

I think the biggest mistake that HD-DVD fanboys make is that they are living in today's world. 30gb is being filled to the brim as we speak... and BD still has 20gb to go. HD-DVD launched earlier and enjoyed a sucessful launch. BD made the mistake of launching too early as not to give up too much ground to HD-DVD, and they may have or may not have paid dearly for it. When it comes down to it, within a month the releases started looking better, which they should have from the start. The Samsung may have had some bugs, but in comparison to the Toshiba players and their firmware updates, is doing alright.

It will be interesting to see how the holidays are going to play out and CES 2007 is going to fare. I sure hope Disney and LG can stick to their guns and continue to soley support BD. Some company also needs to get their own BD authoring tools to create VC-1, as not to have to make a HD-DVD encode first. That will reduce the temptation to put out a HD-DVD disc. Some other brave souls besides Disney and Fox also need to look into creating AVC encodes. What Disney has shown us so far looks great, so more companies should see this and do the same.

[phloyd]

Yeah it is funny - BD50 was 'never going to happen and essential for the survival of BD'

Now it is no big deal.

And before people wanted the extras in HD. Now it is no big deal.

Reality is that it is probably all irrelevant. But hey it is fun to watch

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by Dave

Now (even before the beginig) the movies are 27-28GB. What is HD DVD going to do when these movies just cant fit on HD DVD disc? They dont yet have even a prototype of 45GB disc (not to mention how much it will cost)...

I agree with the sentiment, but we need to stick to the facts.

So far I have not heard of a single movie, by itself, which has exceeded 25 GB when encoded with VC-1 or AVC. All the disks of which I am aware that have exceeded 25 GB in total data have done so by including "extras" of some kind.

This does not mean that features won't exceed 25 GB. They most definitely will when studios decide to go for the highest quality and/or longer duration movies.

I have read several reports from credible sources over the last year that there actually are lab versions of the 45 GB HD DVD disks. (I haven't checked into this personally.) However, I've read nowhere when those might become available to the consumer (months? years? never?). Also, since 45 GB HD DVD disks are not part of the current HD DVD standard no currently shipping (or even shipping within the next few months) HD DVD players are likely to be able to support 45 GB disks -- if they ever materialize. (It has more to do with the optics than the firmware. If the optics were not designed and built to support 3 separate layers and read them accurately, a simple firmware "upgrade" is out of the question.)

Conversely, the 50 GB Blu-ray disks are part of the specification. Any system shipping which claims to be fully compliant with the spec must be able to read 50 GB disks.

Another way to look at the issue:
IIRC the Blu-ray standard allows for up to 40 Mbps for video and up to 24.5 Mbps for audio. Studios may really start to use that bandwidth in order to proclaim they really do have the best possible experience. One sobering thought: At these bit rates even a 50 GB Blu-ray disk won't support a full two hour movie on a single disk. So, maybe we should all be pushing for the Blu-ray specification team to take 100 GB disks out of the "roadmap" and the "lab" and put them into the specification for consumer products!

[phloyd]

Originally Posted by Shadowself

Also, since 45 GB HD DVD disks are not part of the current HD DVD standard no currently shipping (or even shipping within the next few months) HD DVD players are likely to be able to support 45 GB disks -- if they ever materialize.

I have read that the drive inside the A1 is supposed to be capable of reading the TL discs. This was in an NEC (the A1 drive is an NEC) data sheet.

No idea how real it is though.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by Dave

Now (even before the beginig) the movies are 27-28GB. What is HD DVD going to do when these movies just cant fit on HD DVD disc? They dont yet have even a prototype of 45GB disc (not to mention how much it will cost)...

The movies are shrinking in size Dave. Batman Begins is reference level at 13Mbps. This benefits Blu-Ray as well so there's no need to start building strawmen out of datasizes.

Originally Posted by Jazar

This is the final milestone and I'm extrmely anxious to see it pass. Once BDJ comes into full use then HD DVD has NOTHING over BD (as everyone innitially assumed with the given specs).

You mean to tell me you can't think of one thing that HD DVD will have over Blu-Ray? You need to read Sun Tzu because it sounds like you don't know your opponent. Both formats will have advantages over the other. Speaking in absolutes is foolish.

Originally Posted by ProvenFlipper

I think the biggest mistake that HD-DVD fanboys make is that they are living in today's world. 30gb is being filled to the brim as we speak... and BD still has 20gb to go. HD-DVD launched earlier and enjoyed a sucessful launch.

For chrissakes you guys simply refuse to learn. Historically data rates for video decrease as the compressionist gain access to better tools. My first DVDs look like crap at 8+Mpbs and now I've seen DVDs look phenomenal at 4Mbps. The "Maxed out" myth is pure FUD plain and simple. DVDs have only gotten better looking...did the datarate improve? Did they change the spec? No ...movie encoding simply improved to the point where they set new thresholds for refrence level encodes within the available datarate. You all know this is the truth yet you're so eager for affirmation you eschew all common sense.

Originally Posted by ProvenFlipper

Some company also needs to get their own BD authoring tools to create VC-1, as not to have to make a HD-DVD encode first

That's a myth. Studios can write directly to VC-1 for Blu-Ray. The only disadvantage here is that Microsoft doesn't make a tool to take this encode and repurpose to HD DVD (which probably would be trivial but they support HD DVD). If a studio has an inkling to hit both platforms they'll write to HD DVD and then import this into the tool for Blu-Ray support.

Shadowself excellent point. There are ways to make a point without descending into half truths and propaganda. Know thy enemy.

50GB discs IMO are very important. I don't view them as a platform savior though. Only content, affordability and good marketing will produce a victor. Blu-Ray is in the drivers seat they have technical superiority and partnership superiority in many areas. But they cannot be lax.

I will not lie that I'm a HD DVD proponent but if Blu-Ray beats HD DVD in a fair manner then I offer the format as many Kudos as I can. Format wars suck but when there's a victor that victor has likely been chosen by the people and has earned its keep.

[thunderhawk]

We need more storage. Decreasing the storage available, is simply not done.

About BD vs HD DVD, I choose BD because it has the most CE companies supporting them. Not primarily because of the technical superiority but that's a nice bonus, something to become a fanboy for.

[Jazar]

You mean to tell me you can't think of one thing that HD DVD will have over Blu-Ray? You need to read Sun Tzu because it sounds like you don't know your opponent. Both formats will have advantages over the other. Speaking in absolutes is foolish.

Tell me what technical advantage does HD DVD have over BD? I don't claim to be an expert so if you know something I don't then I'd love to hear it.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by Jazar

Tell me what technical advantage does HD DVD have over BD? I don't claim to be an expert so if you know something I don't then I'd love to hear it.

Disc structure. This is the magic bullet for HD DVD. By sharing a common file structure and lens numerical aperture with DVD HD DVD is able to accomodate both DVD and HD DVD within the same disc. Blu-Ray has also showed this but it would require more engineering.

I think if Toshiba can convince more studios to adopt Twin format 30/4.7GB discs or even 15/9GB discs without charging significantly more they have a nice trojan horse into the home.

I think BD50 is sexy to talk about but I'm not sure it translates into a better movie. More extras for sure but movies aren't straining today's 30GB of space just yet.

[AV_Integrated]

I think the whole point of BD50 is to really let loose with MPEG2 by Sony. To really give it room to breathe and to walk on its own as a highly viable format for HD disc authoring. Add uncompressed PCM audio and things look and sound great - while using a lot of the disc.

No, it isn't necessary with AVC/VC-1 encodes, but I think it is one of the things Sony (especially) has focussed heavily on.

I think that there is no possible way, if the playing field were level, that Blu-ray would win a format war. Because COST will not be level due to the new technologies Blu-ray is working on. In fact, cost is still perhaps the biggest thing that is driving HD-DVD sales over Blu-ray. People see both players side-by-side, they both look great, one is half the price - they buy HD-DVD.

Sure, they don't know about CE and studio support and that half the movies they want are NEVER expected to be released on that format. But, they know that they are saving half a grand... or more. Blu-ray desperatel needs a subsidized player to come to market that can meet or beat HD-DVD on every level.

Hopefully a player that doesn't lock up and has a decent remote!

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

The movies are shrinking in size Dave. Batman Begins is reference level at 13Mbps. This benefits Blu-Ray as well so there's no need to start building strawmen out of datasizes.

Myth and you know it.

13 Mbps is NOT "reference quality". It is NOT indistiguishable from the original media no matter how much you want to try to convince people it is. I've often quoted an extensive study by the ITU which states that for the current leading edge compressors (AVC, VC-1, included) that the bit rate required for the video (audio excluded) to be indistinguishable from the original media is at least 110 Mbps. For some video (very high motion, lost of contrasting colors, etc.) the minimum data rate is even higher.

If you have an authoritative study (not done by Microsoft, Apple, Sony, Toshiba or any other vendor "with a dog in the fight") that can point to a bit rate that is truly reference quality for significantly less than 110 Mbps (let alone sub 20 Mbps) then you need to give that reference to one and all.

Originally Posted by hmurchison

For chrissakes you guys simply refuse to learn. Historically data rates for video decrease as the compressionist gain access to better tools. My first DVDs look like crap at 8+Mpbs and now I've seen DVDs look phenomenal at 4Mbps. The "Maxed out" myth is pure FUD plain and simple. DVDs have only gotten better looking...did the datarate improve? Did they change the spec? No ...movie encoding simply improved to the point where they set new thresholds for refrence level encodes within the available datarate. You all know this is the truth yet you're so eager for affirmation you eschew all common sense.

Actually, DVDs were bandwidth and volume constrained at the start.

Also higher compression rates evolved because the studios wanted to put more data onto a disk. It was an issue of getting the most out of the consumer for the least cost. Repackage old films as "new and improved" with more extras and cut scenes -- or both a pan and scan AND a letterbox on a single disk. The goal was not, and the end result often was not, improved quality. If improved quality had been the goal then they would have improved the compression methodology without lowering the bit rate (very possible to do by the way). Instead they often kept quality nearly the same while cramming more stuff in.

I would dare say that most of the newer disk with lower data rates have "better quality" because of improved masters rather than because of the newer compression and transfer methodologies. A DVD of a movie from the 60s or 70s which has not been remastered would look poorer than one from 2000 or newer or an old one that has been digitally remastered and re-released.

Again, back off from the statements about "reference level" encodings. Extremely few things are ever encoded -- for the public -- at a "reference level".

Originally Posted by hmurchison

50GB discs IMO are very important. I don't view them as a platform savior though. Only content, affordability and good marketing will produce a victor. Blu-Ray is in the drivers seat they have technical superiority and partnership superiority in many areas. But they cannot be lax.

While 50 GB disks are not the "killer app" for Blu-ray they may be key advantage. When coupled with the higher spec'd data rates they can allow for significantly higher quality imagery and audio. Will studios do this or will they just cram more crap onto the disks because there's room? I'm hoping for the former, but I'm afraid we'll see more of the latter.

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Disc structure. This is the magic bullet for HD DVD. By sharing a common file structure and lens numerical aperture with DVD HD DVD is able to accomodate both DVD and HD DVD within the same disc. Blu-Ray has also showed this but it would require more engineering.

I think if Toshiba can convince more studios to adopt Twin format 30/4.7GB discs or even 15/9GB discs without charging significantly more they have a nice trojan horse into the home.

Are you referring to the 30 GB one side and 8.5 GB on the other? I don't undertand why this would require more engineering. Certainly not more than HD DVD. If anything it would require less as the base layer in the Blu-ray / DVD disk for the DVD side could actually sit at the center of the disk (per standard DVD) and the Blu-ray layers can sit exactly where they normally do to. However on the HD DVD / DVD disks they must be offset from the center for both the HD DVD and the DVD layers.

I believe it is true that the Blu-ray / DVD line to produce these would very likely be more complex than the HD DVD / DVD line because in the Blu-ray / DVD line the processes to create the layers in the disks are more dissimilar than for the HD DVD / DVD line, but I fail to see how the engineering problem is more complex for the Blu-ray / DVD process. If anything the engineering problem is simpler.

Originally Posted by hmurchison

I think BD50 is sexy to talk about but I'm not sure it translates into a better movie. More extras for sure but movies aren't straining today's 30GB of space just yet.

As I said above, Blu-ray is no where near constrained with BD50 disks and the allowed maximum data rates. I hope this equates to better quality in the future, but it may just become more "stuff" I don't need or want.

[theknub]

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

I think that there is no possible way, if the playing field were level, that Blu-ray would win a format war. Because COST will not be level due to the new technologies Blu-ray is working on. In fact, cost is still perhaps the biggest thing that is driving HD-DVD sales over Blu-ray. People see both players side-by-side, they both look great, one is half the price - they buy HD-DVD.

i believe this point is even becoming mute. after all, hd-dvd is launching the x2 or whatever it is for $1k. obviously, the hd-dvd players are now the same price as a blu-ray. now, you look at software which is being priced relatively equal except for the flipper discs which are more. so hardware and software are relatively equal. now, you look at quality of the system builds and that may sway you from one to the other.

simply put, based on upcoming pricing, the hardware and software are equal (or soon will be) and the consumer will have to delve into the finer points such as build quality and studio support

[hyperdine]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

I think BD50 is sexy to talk about but I'm not sure it translates into a better movie. More extras for sure but movies aren't straining today's 30GB of space just yet.

Well, to be fair, if we're strictly talking about movies it's really too soon to tell how the content providers plan on exploiting the additional space. However, we shouldn't focus on just your typical two-hour flick. What about episodic content like TV shows? For example, having an entire first season of a series on one disc vs. two is certainly a win/win for the consumer and the manufacturer.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

I think the whole point of BD50 is to really let loose with MPEG2 by Sony. To really give it room to breathe and to walk on its own as a highly viable format for HD disc authoring. Add uncompressed PCM audio and things look and sound great - while using a lot of the disc.

Sounds odd to me. I know Sony gets more royalties from MPEG2 but pushing less data and keeping quality is the trend I think we need.

Shadowself- If your definition of Reference Quality is indistinguishability from the Master then yes no HD movie to date is Reference Quality. I do know however that 13Mbps can provide an artifact free and quality movie experience.

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/batmanbegins.html

Final Thoughts

'Batman Begins' is a no-brainer. Even if you are only casually interested in the film, you should definitely check this one out to see the HD DVD format at the top of its game. Terrific transfer, awesome Dolby TrueHD soundtrack and tons of extras -- including some genuine HD bonus content -- make this one the A-list HD DVD release to beat. Now is a very good time to be an early adopter!

Sounds damn positive. I'm fired up!

Originally Posted by Shadowself

Actually, DVDs were bandwidth and volume constrained at the start

Of course. The initial wave of HD DVD are all higher than newer titles like BB and Troy in bitrate yet that doesn't guarantee a superior picture. The point is studios aren't going to start throwing more bitrate at a movie when they can achieve excellent encodes in less data. The idea and theory that HD DVD being "maxed out" is Blu-Ray fanboism pure and simple.

Originally Posted by Shadowself

While 50 GB disks are not the "killer app" for Blu-ray they may be key advantage. When coupled with the higher spec'd data rates they can allow for significantly higher quality imagery and audio

Theoretically. Everyone "hopes" that 50GB translates into higher quality but the reality is closer to bitrate isn't the limiting factor for movies right now. Older and harder to compress movies stand to benefit the most but newer movies are clean enough to obviate the need for high datarates.

What would have been a killer app for Blu-Ray may have been support for 10-bit RBG. Sadly both formats are locked into 8-bits per channel so the extra space is likely going to be for extras mainly and hirez audio which won't really excite people that don't want huge speakers in their home theatre.

Originally Posted by theknub

believe this point is even becoming mute. after all, hd-dvd is launching the x2 or whatever it is for $1k. obviously, the hd-dvd players are now the same price as a blu-ray. now, you look at software which is being priced relatively equal except for the flipper discs which are more. so hardware and software are relatively equal. now, you look at quality of the system builds and that may sway you from one to the other.

Yes but you cannot discount that Toshiba still sells a dedicated player for $499. So the point isn't really mooted until the PS3 ships at $499 as well.

Originally Posted by Hyperdine

What about episodic content like TV shows? For example, having an entire first season of a series on one disc vs. two is certainly a win/win for the consumer and the manufacturer

HD DVD offers Double Sided Dual-Layer 60GB per disc.

[hyperdine]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

HD DVD offers Double Sided Dual-Layer 60GB per disc.

Hmmm...that seems to drive home the point that storage space is relevant. Why would HD-DVD bother with a 60GB disc if the 30GB they have today is plenty?

Case in point...I went to Target yesterday and lo and behold, they have a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD stand set up. They had both formats on the same rack separated by a pillar that had 4 or 5 bullet points comparing the two. The last bullet point in the comparison indicated that Blu-Ray had a storage capacity of 50GB and HD-DVD had 30GB.

Regardless, of whether or not this makes for better image quality, the average consumer does not have an appreciation for compression technology, etc. However, most people who own a computer understand that more storage space is better. If nothing else, it's a selling point. In fact, it will be viewed (possibly misconstrued) as a competitive advantage.

At the end of the day, the average consumer will decide the outcome of the format war (probably by abstaining altogether) and can anyone blame someone for seeing 50GB vs. 30GB and thinking "Hey, Blu-Ray must be better, right?"

[Chris Beveridge]

I suspect that the dual sided HD DVD discs will be about as common as DVD-18 is. From a marketing perspective alone it's far better to release two discs and promote it as a double disc set. Same applies to HD DVD and BD. Once HD extras become more the norm, they'll be shunted to their own discs so they can remove them for priced down editions later on without having to reauthor anything.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Shadowself- If your definition of Reference Quality is indistinguishability from the Master then yes no HD movie to date is Reference Quality. I do know however that 13Mbps can provide an artifact free and quality movie experience.

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/batmanbegins.html

Final Thoughts

'Batman Begins' is a no-brainer. Even if you are only casually interested in the film, you should definitely check this one out to see the HD DVD format at the top of its game. Terrific transfer, awesome Dolby TrueHD soundtrack and tons of extras -- including some genuine HD bonus content -- make this one the A-list HD DVD release to beat. Now is a very good time to be an early adopter!

Sounds damn positive. I'm fired up!

That's the point: if your reference quality is watching letterboxed scope movies in a 50" to 60" 16:9 screen at 9 feet, that's not what I call "reference quality" nor "a quality movie experience". So if 14 mbs is good enough for your satisfaction, then I need 146 mbs on the video to be truly 100% satisfied (The look and sound of "perfect") as I intend to watch Scope movies on the equivalent of what would be a 16:9 16' diagonal screen at a 9 feet viewing distance. My "standard of reference" would imply the need of higher bit rates than 14, just like NTSC DVD's 16mm quality is not good enough for me.

And Blu-ray has the highest bit rate.

That's one reason I chose Blu-ray from the start. Of the 2 formats it was the one whose specs came closest in potential to my expectations. The Studio/CE support is just gravy. And I'm a guy that chose VHS over Beta because I saw there was no clear superiority in the technical specs after Hi-Fi sound was introduced (And who wants to watch STAR WARS in Beta linear mono?)

As I've mentioned to you a couple of times after you've posted your assessment that we don't need high video bit rates and that they're good enough now, that's a big "IF" in my book: "IF they're good enough".

Shadowself's 110 mbs (and higher) number is in general similar agreement to my "I can see a difference between the bitmap and the 5:1 compressed jpeg" (179 mbs). You might say now that studios will never transfer Blu-rays at best rates, etc, but if they would, it's there to have it. On HD DVD it's not. So again if HD DVD bit rates are good enough then they're interchangeable. But if they're not...

In Photography there's a saying: Nothing beats real state.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

The movies are shrinking in size Dave. Batman Begins is reference level at 13Mbps.

In 1997 TV music-videos were 6-10-30MB

In 1999 DVD music-videos were 250-300MB

In 2006 HD music-videos are 500-750MB


More lossless codecs are here.


I think that IT IS ALL ABOUT THE GYGABYTES! The more memry you have, the better quality, the more data you can save.
GB ALWAYS matter!