Stand alone BD Player VS. PS3 - movie grain. - Blu-ray Forum

adamn · 07-22-2008, 01:45 PM

Would movie grain be any less on a standalone BD player than it is on a PS3? I would think they are the same, but after reading alot on movie grain, some ppl have said better players can help. Is this true?

bootman · 07-22-2008, 02:07 PM

no.
Grain is in the film.

Now if you have a 120' screen and watch at 10' away then you might detect a grainier pic on the PS3.
But I highly doubt that is your situation.

adamn · 07-22-2008, 02:13 PM

thanks

CAB · 07-22-2008, 02:19 PM

It was less on standalone HD-DVD players.

Sonny · 07-22-2008, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAB

It was less on standalone HD-DVD players.

What do you mean?

kpkelley · 07-22-2008, 02:21 PM

On a side note, TV's that have not been properly calibrated can cause grain to become even more apparent through processes like high sharpness and "noise reduction."

A properly calibrated tv will more accurately represent the quality of the image being sent to it. A tv that is not properly calibrated can make even a good image look bad.

kpkelley · 07-22-2008, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonny

What do you mean?

DNR.

adamn · 07-22-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAB

It was less on standalone HD-DVD players.

Please ... HD-DVD is dead. As my original post states, I am talking about BD only.

SS316SRV · 07-22-2008, 02:26 PM

Grain good

CAB · 07-22-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamn

Please ... HD-DVD is dead. As my original post states, I am talking about BD only.

Please ... It's a joke.

adamn · 07-22-2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAB

Please ... It's a joke.

oh .. well then ha ha. Guess that one went over my head. I am new here, I did not know you guys joke about HDDVD.

CAB · 07-22-2008, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamn

oh .. well then ha ha. Guess that one went over my head. I am new here, I did not know you guys joke about HDDVD.

I only joke because of all the DNR and low bit rate discussion that go on. Sometimes it's good to look back and be thankful that we can have the discussions. Had HD DVD prevailed, there would be no need.

I've been around here a while and am usually pretty dry.

adamn · 07-22-2008, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAB

I only joke because of all the DNR and low bit rate discussion that go on. Sometimes it's good to look back and be thankful that we can have the discussions. Had HD DVD prevailed, there would be no need.

I've been around here a while and am usually pretty dry.

Ok, well thats good to know

... and I can be as well. Some forums are just so blah that the users dont joke amongst each other so coming to a new one, I guess I will learn what you all are like.

CAB · 07-22-2008, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamn

Ok, well thats good to know

... and I can be as well. Some forums are just so blah that the users dont joke amongst each other so coming to a new one, I guess I will learn what you all are like.

Aye, the joke wasn't directed at you and I'm sorry if it sounded like it and it was taken that way.

CptGreedle · 07-22-2008, 02:53 PM

Grain is not something a console/player will add. It is part of the film itself. It is not something that was meant to be removed, but is in fact the physical part of the film that holds the image. Many people don't like it, but that is because they are not used to the way film is meant to look. DVDs are too low quality to show grain so for many, this is the first time they have ever seen it.
The fact is, because so many people don't know about grain or don't like it, film studios are adding DNR (Digital Noise Reduction) to their films before burning them to Blu-ray. This is a very bad thing and makes people look plastic and looses a LOT of detail. FIlms like Patton and Pan's Labyrinth both suffer from this.
FIlms like 300 have all the grain in tact and look amazing! We are trying to convince studios and people alike that grain is good and part of the image, but it is an uphill battle full of obstacles. Studios do not always add the DNR, sometimes a technician elsewhere will add it. They do not have the right equipment to see all the grain when they edit this so they are applying too much (any is too much imo but they apply WAY too much). People think all movies should look "smooth", like the newest Star Wars movies or CG animations. These films are digitally captured so they have no grain besides the very forgivable digital noise.

In short, the PS3 and standalone players will look the same as far as grain is concerned. At least right now as far as I know. DNR is added to the disc, not the player. But I think the perfect solution to this, the thing that will make users who like grain and users who don't like grain BOTH happy, would be to add DNR to the player, as something that can be turned on and off. That way everyone will have their own choice.

adamn · 07-22-2008, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAB

Aye, the joke wasn't directed at you and I'm sorry if it sounded like it and it was taken that way.

No worries

It was not taken that way. I just didn't get it thats all

adamn · 07-22-2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptGreedle

Grain is not something a console/player will add. It is part of the film itself. It is not something that was meant to be removed, but is in fact the physical part of the film that holds the image. Many people don't like it, but that is because they are not used to the way film is meant to look. DVDs are too low quality to show grain so for many, this is the first time they have ever seen it.
The fact is, because so many people don't know about grain or don't like it, film studios are adding DNR (Digital Noise Reduction) to their films before burning them to Blu-ray. This is a very bad thing and makes people look plastic and looses a LOT of detail. FIlms like Patton and Pan's Labyrinth both suffer from this.
FIlms like 300 have all the grain in tact and look amazing! We are trying to convince studios and people alike that grain is good and part of the image, but it is an uphill battle full of obstacles. Studios do not always add the DNR, sometimes a technician elsewhere will add it. They do not have the right equipment to see all the grain when they edit this so they are applying too much (any is too much imo but they apply WAY too much). People think all movies should look "smooth", like the newest Star Wars movies or CG animations. These films are digitally captured so they have no grain besides the very forgivable digital noise.

In short, the PS3 and standalone players will look the same as far as grain is concerned. At least right now as far as I know. DNR is added to the disc, not the player. But I think the perfect solution to this, the thing that will make users who like grain and users who don't like grain BOTH happy, would be to add DNR to the player, as something that can be turned on and off. That way everyone will have their own choice.

Thanks for that info, thats what I am looking for. I dont mind the grain so much if it is supposed to be as bad as it is at times, I just want to make sure that none of my hardware is making it any worse, as I have heard that it can. I do understand it is the film and I can live with that. I am just new to BD and in the beginning thought it might be hardware related. I am glad its not.

ryoohki · 07-22-2008, 03:33 PM

Want to see what DNR can do to destroy a movie fine detail. Check XYLON thread on AVS FORUM, Blu-ray Software. Thread about The Golden Compass, last page...

The trailer is untouched by DNR, the FILM is heavely DNR'd...

welwynnick · 07-24-2008, 08:52 AM

I'm told by a reliable source that the LG BH100 has less noise than the PS3 when the noise reduction is switched on. Most players don't have noise reduction with HD video, but it seems the LGs do. The IMPORTANT point of this comment is that the source is an utter videophile, and wouldn't tolerate a softer image in exchange for a "quieter" image. On the contrary, he said that the grain was reduced WITHOUT losing sharpness. This can be done with good enough filtering, though I can imagine that some people go overboard with the settings.

What most people that talk about grain don't realise is that there is more to noise reduction than making the image softer by applying a high-frequency roll-off to the top end of the video signal. That's rather like watching a Blu-ray on a 480p or 720p display (where you tend not to see the grain, at least not in the same way you do with 1080p). That sort of filtering is spatial filtering, where the detail reduction process is applied to each frame individually. Its cheap and easy to implement.

Since grain is a random phenomenon, varying from frame to frame in a random manner, there's a lot of potential for temporal or spatio-temporal filtering, if you have the processing horsepower to do it (and that's been a big obstacle until fairly recently).

Instead of averaging adjacent pixels in the same frame, temporal filtering essentially averages the same pixel between frames. If there's no movement, the filtering can be very slow, and all the grain can be eliminated without any loss of detail. Where there is significnat movement, filtering has to be shortened to avoid smearing. Since the algorithms have to read the picture and detect motion between a number of frames, it's difficult, complex and hardware intensive. But it does work. I used to have a Samsung BDP1000 and a Calibre Vantage video processor, and that combination produced a better picture than the Sony BDP-S1 that replaced it, because it was very effective at reducing grain without reducing sharpness. And believe me, I'm utterly anal about image quality - I HATE plastic faces. I don't have the Golden Compass (only seen it at the cinema) - I'll go and have a look at what you mean - I've heard other people mentin that one.....

Nick

07-22-2008, 01:45 PM	#1
adamn Member Member since:May 2008	Stand alone BD Player VS. PS3 - movie grain. Would movie grain be any less on a standalone BD player than it is on a PS3? I would think they are the same, but after reading alot on movie grain, some ppl have said better players can help. Is this true?

07-22-2008, 03:33 PM	#18
ryoohki Blu-ray Samurai Member since:May 2007 Home Theater Gallery:6 Blu-ray collection:6 Blu-ray reviews:8 Trading Score:5	Want to see what DNR can do to destroy a movie fine detail. Check XYLON thread on AVS FORUM, Blu-ray Software. Thread about The Golden Compass, last page... The trailer is untouched by DNR, the FILM is heavely DNR'd... Last edited by ryoohki; 07-22-2008 at 03:36 PM.

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07-22-2008, 02:07 PM	#2
bootman Special Member Member since:Sep 2007 Location:The Burghs	no. Grain is in the film. Now if you have a 120' screen and watch at 10' away then you might detect a grainier pic on the PS3. But I highly doubt that is your situation.

07-22-2008, 02:13 PM	#3
adamn Member Member since:May 2008	thanks

07-22-2008, 02:19 PM	#4
CAB Blu-ray Guru Member since:Jul 2007 Location:::1 4K collection:88 Blu-ray collection:1827 Trading Score:4	It was less on standalone HD-DVD players.

07-22-2008, 02:21 PM	#6
kpkelley Blu-ray Ninja Top contributor Member since:Aug 2007 Location:Framingham, MA 4K collection:385 Blu-ray collection:2478 Digital collection:113 Blu-ray reviews: 152	On a side note, TV's that have not been properly calibrated can cause grain to become even more apparent through processes like high sharpness and "noise reduction." A properly calibrated tv will more accurately represent the quality of the image being sent to it. A tv that is not properly calibrated can make even a good image look bad.

07-22-2008, 02:26 PM	#9
SS316SRV Blu-ray Guru Member since:Sep 2007 Location:Appleton, WI Blu-ray collection:74	Grain good

07-22-2008, 02:53 PM	#15
CptGreedle Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Jul 2007 Location:Sworn super-hero now services Atlanta (and suburbs). Blu-ray collection:128 Blu-ray reviews:5	Grain is not something a console/player will add. It is part of the film itself. It is not something that was meant to be removed, but is in fact the physical part of the film that holds the image. Many people don't like it, but that is because they are not used to the way film is meant to look. DVDs are too low quality to show grain so for many, this is the first time they have ever seen it. The fact is, because so many people don't know about grain or don't like it, film studios are adding DNR (Digital Noise Reduction) to their films before burning them to Blu-ray. This is a very bad thing and makes people look plastic and looses a LOT of detail. FIlms like Patton and Pan's Labyrinth both suffer from this. FIlms like 300 have all the grain in tact and look amazing! We are trying to convince studios and people alike that grain is good and part of the image, but it is an uphill battle full of obstacles. Studios do not always add the DNR, sometimes a technician elsewhere will add it. They do not have the right equipment to see all the grain when they edit this so they are applying too much (any is too much imo but they apply WAY too much). People think all movies should look "smooth", like the newest Star Wars movies or CG animations. These films are digitally captured so they have no grain besides the very forgivable digital noise. In short, the PS3 and standalone players will look the same as far as grain is concerned. At least right now as far as I know. DNR is added to the disc, not the player. But I think the perfect solution to this, the thing that will make users who like grain and users who don't like grain BOTH happy, would be to add DNR to the player, as something that can be turned on and off. That way everyone will have their own choice.

07-24-2008, 08:52 AM	#19
welwynnick Senior Member Member since:Sep 2007	I'm told by a reliable source that the LG BH100 has less noise than the PS3 when the noise reduction is switched on. Most players don't have noise reduction with HD video, but it seems the LGs do. The IMPORTANT point of this comment is that the source is an utter videophile, and wouldn't tolerate a softer image in exchange for a "quieter" image. On the contrary, he said that the grain was reduced WITHOUT losing sharpness. This can be done with good enough filtering, though I can imagine that some people go overboard with the settings. What most people that talk about grain don't realise is that there is more to noise reduction than making the image softer by applying a high-frequency roll-off to the top end of the video signal. That's rather like watching a Blu-ray on a 480p or 720p display (where you tend not to see the grain, at least not in the same way you do with 1080p). That sort of filtering is spatial filtering, where the detail reduction process is applied to each frame individually. Its cheap and easy to implement. Since grain is a random phenomenon, varying from frame to frame in a random manner, there's a lot of potential for temporal or spatio-temporal filtering, if you have the processing horsepower to do it (and that's been a big obstacle until fairly recently). Instead of averaging adjacent pixels in the same frame, temporal filtering essentially averages the same pixel between frames. If there's no movement, the filtering can be very slow, and all the grain can be eliminated without any loss of detail. Where there is significnat movement, filtering has to be shortened to avoid smearing. Since the algorithms have to read the picture and detect motion between a number of frames, it's difficult, complex and hardware intensive. But it does work. I used to have a Samsung BDP1000 and a Calibre Vantage video processor, and that combination produced a better picture than the Sony BDP-S1 that replaced it, because it was very effective at reducing grain without reducing sharpness. And believe me, I'm utterly anal about image quality - I HATE plastic faces. I don't have the Golden Compass (only seen it at the cinema) - I'll go and have a look at what you mean - I've heard other people mentin that one..... Nick

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