HD-DVD: What's so bad about it?

[Solar Driftwood]

I realise that this may become a heated thread. I sincerely hope it doesn't...

As a newbie to HD forums, I'm a little surprised to see the level of in-fighting between supporters of Blu-ray and the supporters of HD-DVD. I realise that people will naturally be pro-the format they have adopted, and want it to win the format war, but there seems to be an unreasoning hatred from some quarters for the opposing format. What's all that about? (I should point out that this is the friendliest HD forum I've found!)

I currently own an HD-DVD player, a Toshiba HD-E1, and I have to be honest, it's a lovely bit of kit. The small number of HD-DVD discs I now own are equally impressive. Now, this does not make me break out in an irrational campaign of hate against Blu-ray... far from it. I've seen a Blu-Ray demo and think it looks superb too. So I'm going to be buying both formats (as soon as I can get hold of the Panasonic BD10a!). I'm sure I will come to prefer one format over the other (and I really don't know which at this stage), but I very much doubt that I will be wanting one format to trounce the other. Besides, the survival of both SACD and DVD-A could be a pointer that both HD formats can thrive?

So, as someone who has (at the moment) only HD-DVD, and from what I can see, it looks a fine format, what is it about Blu-ray that puts HD-DVD so much in the shade? And what is it about HD-DVD that Blu-ray fans don't like?

[FilmmakingFiasco]

A lot of people say that Blu-ray's larger capacity allows for better soundtracks through uncompressed audio. At the moment, I don't have the equipment to decode anything that isn't optical. I haven't had the chance to listen and compare. Visually, both HD-DVD and Blu-ray look the same to me. HD-DVD seems to have more natural color while Blu-ray is on the red side (this might be how my PS3 outputs too). With either, it's a preference and could be closely matched if you tweak the settings on your TV. HD-DVD systems didn't have 1080p enabled when first released (those disc are mastered in it) but that is no longer a problem.

I own the 360 HD-DVD add on and a PS3. Surprisingly, reviews have said that the console versions of high def are some of the best systems out there.

The only real complaint for HD-DVD could be for lack of support. I do lean towards blu-ray purchases because I like the info that the PS3 gives on the disc and the PS3 remote has more options on the controller than the Harmony Xbox remote I use.

The truth is, a lot of hated is just fanboyism. Disc size on HD-DVD's side might limit the quality of longer films/future releases.

For exclusives, I have Children of Men, Batman Begins, Serenity, V for Vendetta and Cinderella man on HD-DVD (some are yet to be released from Warner, Cinderella Man is available in Japan on Blu-ray.)

Even for someone who has both options available, it's tough not to choose sides. I still struggle to decide which dual format releases I should get for what system. I bought The Sopranos on Blu-ray, only to return it for the HD-DVD since it didn't have a DD 5.1 track (it did have one for uncompressed audio).

I support both and each has their own advantages/disadvantages (mostly with studio support). After several years with an HDTV and limited to no HD content anywhere, I'm just happy that Hi Def is finally here.

[Solar Driftwood]

Originally Posted by FilmmakingFiasco

After several years with an HDTV and limited to no HD content anywhere, I'm just happy that Hi Def is finally here.

Hear, hear! I couldn't agree more.

[The Don]

if HD-DVD won...I'd have to switch...

I am on BD's side because I like quality over quantity...but in this case you get both

[onanie]

The heated arguments from both camps are usually in response to each other's behaviour, I'm sure. I do not think there is anything rational to "hate" about the HD DVD, as there is nothing to "hate" about the blu-ray. The real question is just which one is "better". I hope you're not complaining specifically about blu-ray supporters.

[BluFive]

Too be honest both formats are pretty kick ass.
I choose Bluray because more movies I like are gonna be exclusive to BR,HD DVD just has Universal and Weinstein exclusive.Also the specs are just alittle bit better,plus ive had/have sony tvs and my first dvd player was sony and ive had little to no real major problems.

[Chris Gerhard]

Both formats are great, period. The problem based on past history is that if we want a lot of software, we need only one. The market is small to begin with and a big percentage of the market buys neither format until there is just one. Without a installed base of hardware, software selection won't be want we want. Unless Universal goes neutral, there is no end in sight to the format war, Blu-ray can be in the lead but can't win quickly. It would likely take several years of losses for significant HD DVD participants to bow out, or take a couple of years with a huge lead for Blu-ray to look good enough for significant participants to switch. if Universal stays HD DVD exclusive, I think software sales will run about 55 - 60% Blu-ray and nothing changes, both are still around with neither doing well financially.

The silly FUD I see posted by HD DVD enthusiasts about the sky falling if Blu-ray wins annoys me to no end. It is apparently believed by them that Sony is evil and Toshiba and Microsoft first rate.

Chris

[Chris Gerhard]

I think supporting one format is best, but I bought both, although I have no plans to buy much on HD DVD. Still, if I see a great deal on HD DVD titles, particularly the Universal ones I want, I will probably buy a few more. I did just buy "The Adventures of Robin Hood" on HD DVD because I love the silly old movie and my girlfriend had never seen it. In my opinion, that is an impressive presentation on home video for a 1938 film. I am sure the DVD is good as well, and my plans were to pick up the DVD and live with it, but I found the HD DVD and will likely keep it. I don't know why it wasn't released on Blu-ray.

Chris

[Solar Driftwood]

Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard

The silly FUD I see posted by HD DVD enthusiasts about the sky falling if Blu-ray wins annoys me to no end. It is apparently believed by them that Sony is evil and Toshiba and Microsoft first rate.

Makes a change for someone to imply that Bill Gates is not the devil incarnate, doesn't it?

[Smallville206]

Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard

Both formats are great, period. The problem based on past history is that if we want a lot of software, we need only one. The market is small to begin with and a big percentage of the market buys neither format until there is just one. Without a installed base of hardware, software selection won't be want we want. Unless Universal goes neutral, there is no end in sight to the format war, Blu-ray can be in the lead but can't win quickly. It would likely take several years of losses for significant HD DVD participants to bow out, or take a couple of years with a huge lead for Blu-ray to look good enough for significant participants to switch. if Universal stays HD DVD exclusive, I think software sales will run about 55 - 60% Blu-ray and nothing changes, both are still around with neither doing well financially.

The silly FUD I see posted by HD DVD enthusiasts about the sky falling if Blu-ray wins annoys me to no end. It is apparently believed by them that Sony is evil and Toshiba and Microsoft first rate.

Chris

What you stated is exactly what I would have written. I don't know why so many people fail to realize that as long as both are around, both are likely to fail. I love Blu ray and hope it wins out as all the statistics seem to indicate it will. However, if in some miracle HD-DVD was the victor, I would have no problems switching over though I would be shaking my head looking at all the BD's I've already purchased.
People in the HD-DVD camp seem to want to stick to the position of if HD-DVD fails they won't support Blu ray, they must not truly love watching things in HD than.

[GoldenRedux]

Well, personally, I'm not going to play the diplomat and claim that both formats are great because I don't truly believe that. The reason I chose Blu-ray and the reason I want HD DVD to fail is because of the undeniable technical superiority of the Blu-ray format, there is no way around that. I have already seen the results of titles the have been done for the lowest common denominator (I'm looking at you Warner) and they're not pretty. Head to head, there is no way HD DVD can compete with Blu-ray. Period. If both formats are using the same audio and video codecs, then it stands to reason that higher capacity & higher bandwidth = higher quality. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. HD DVD has already been maxed out. It's a format that never should have seen the light of day, and it's being around is not only crippling the HD market, but also crippling the quality of the HD product that is available to us as the consumer.

[Solar Driftwood]

Originally Posted by onanie

I hope you're not complaining specifically about blu-ray supporters.

Not at all. It seems to play both ways, sadly. And I should also say I've not seen much evidence of it here, which is refreshing.

[Dave]

What is so bad about it?

Well , thats what the whole war is about. hd dvd is bad but some of its underpriced players are good for Sony haters.

Actually everything is bad for hd dvd.
It has not enough free space for the today , not to mention tomorrow movies, it has bad sound and ... everything.


See here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=10176051

This will give some more basic idea of the "Whats so bad about it" topic...

[phloyd]

Conceptually, there are two words: Bandwidth and Capacity.

Realistically, reliability and functionality also play a significant role. Some 'features' like frame forward and jump to time code are conceptually possible but not implemented. Also it seems that Toshiba has yet to produce a player that is bug free and reliable across the board.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Solar Driftwood

So, as someone who has (at the moment) only HD-DVD, and from what I can see, it looks a fine format, what is it about Blu-ray that puts HD-DVD so much in the shade? And what is it about HD-DVD that Blu-ray fans don't like?

HD DVD is a fine format. But, I had a choice, and the things that affected my choice were:

- Studio support. Clearly in Blu-ray's advantage in North America.
- CE support. Clearly in Blu-ray's advantage.
- Computing support. Clearly in Blu-ray's advantage.

Then there is bandwidth, which allows lossless audio to be considered for all releases and seamless branching (which HD DVD seems to have troubles with).
As well as the capacity, which allows epic films like Lord of the Rings to be on a single disc.

A combination of capacity and bandwidth allows Disney, for example, to support many written languages within the animation (signs, for example) via seamless branching, as well the corresponding audio tracks.

Then there is the plan to supply iPOD and PSP versions of movies on the Blu-ray discs. These would be pre-encoded and optimized versus a decode, scaling, re-encode that would be necessary with managed copy (whenever, if ever that happens).

Gary

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by FilmmakingFiasco

HD-DVD seems to have more natural color while Blu-ray is on the red side (this might be how my PS3 outputs too).

I checked my PS3's output and it's giving equal intensity to all colors (you can check this with a color bar and color filters visually if you want).

Maybe the PS3 is connected to an input that has red push?

Originally Posted by HD-Greek

remember the sales on both formats till December 2006......and the 50GB dual layer discs are really hard to make..............Sony shipped the first ones 5-6 months ago...........

Well remember that in a sense BD was being ignored for the first 5 months because of: bad reviews of the only player around (Samsung w/o Noise Reduction-Off firmware update) and the look of discs like House of the Flying Daggers and The Fifth Element, probably watched on 720p TVs deinterlacing 1080i to 540p with the sharpness set up to the wazoo to make the owners previous DVD collectiion look sharp on their 720 tvs while watching at 8-10 feet making the BDs, A: not have any more perceptual resolution, B: have incredible mid frequency noise boost (I saw the Fifth Element being displayed in stores like that and looked horrible and noisy. On a calibrated 1080p, watched big, it looks fine), and all the Science Fiction FUD being spread around. Then the PS3 got released in November, along with the Panasonic player, the Sony Player, the Phillips player, in some places you could see the Pioneer player, the Samsung got the firmware upgrade, BD titles surpassed HD DVD titles, BD-50s were available, people got 1080p displays, and voilá, HD DVD sales vs BD sales were inverted after people watched their BDs purchases on Christmas.

[HD-Greek]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Well remember that in a sense BD was being ignored for the first 5 months because of: bad reviews of the only player around (Samsung w/o Noise Reduction-Off firmware update) and the look of discs like House of the Flying Daggers and The Fifth Element, probably watched on 720p TVs deinterlacing 1080i to 540p with the sharpness set up to the wazoo to make the owners previous DVD collectiion look sharp on their 720 tvs while watching at 8-10 feet making the BDs, A: not have any more perceptual resolution, B: have incredible mid frequency noise boost (I saw the Fifth Element being displayed in stores like that and looked horrible and noisy. On a calibrated 1080p, watched big, it looks fine), and all the Science Fiction FUD being spread around. Then the PS3 got released in November, along with the Panasonic player, the Sony Player, the Phillips player, in some places you could see the Pioneer player, the Samsung got the firmware upgrade, BD titles surpassed HD DVD titles, BD-50s were available, people got 1080p displays, and voilá, HD DVD sales vs BD sales were inverted after people watched their BDs purchases on Christmas.

OK......that's for the USA......in Europe we don't have the Philips and Pioneer players and the Sony is coming in middle summer with a price of 1500E=1950$=1000 English pounds........................incredible.....it's double the US price..........that's why Toshiba has the 85% of standalone high definition players in Europe....for example here in Greece most people prefer hd-dvd.....and in the UK the same....and in Germany the same.....that's why the only hope for blu-ray to dominate Europe is PS3..................

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by HD-Greek

OK......that's for the USA......in Europe we don't have the Philips and Pioneer players and the Sony is coming in middle summer with a price of 1500E=1950$=1000 English pounds........................incredible.....it's double the US price..........that's why Toshiba has the 85% of the standalone high definition players in Europe....for example here in Greece most people prefer hd-dvd.....and in the UK the same....and in Germany the same.....that's why the only hope for blu-ray to dominate Europe is PS3..................

Pretty good hope though. Something like 400K PS/3 sold in the first week in Europe, another 180K or so in the UK. At even 10% usage it would mean BD is already WAY ahead of HD DVD.

Gary

[HD-Greek]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Pretty good hope though. Something like 400K PS/3 sold in the first week in Europe, another 180K or so in the UK. At even 10% usage it would mean BD is already WAY ahead of HD DVD.

Gary

With PS3 maybe blu-ray win the war............but in standalone players Toshiba is the ruler of high def players in Europe..............

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by HD-Greek

With PS3 maybe blu-ray win the war............but in standalone players Toshiba is the ruler of high def players in Europe..............

I don't know what's this obssesione of separating Blu-ray players into standalones and the PS3. The PS3 plays Blu-rays. It is a Blu-ray player. It also does other things at no extra cost So it doesn't matter who rules the subsection of players, what matters is how many people PLAY discs.


How many HD DVD standalone players are in Europe? How many are including the xBox add on? and puter drives?

Are they even 100,000? 200,000? 300,000?

Everytime I go to my local DVD store the manager tells me since people got the PS3 he's selling more Blu-rays than HD DVDs. He also got a PS3 too.