Bi-pole speakers

[callas01]

Hey guys, I have a question.... I use a 6.1 system, and I just sold my old 5.1 Sonys cause I got the Energy 3.1, so that left me with one empty spot(I had a pair of bookshelves left over which added up to 5.1), BUT I want to keep it a 6.1 cause of the way my house is there would be a huge gap in the rear speakers.

OK, so I have a bookshelf that takes up the whole back wall until you get to the opening for the dining room. I currently use the 6th speaker in the book shelf towards the far end of the bookshelf right at the opening of the dining room. I was thinking that with a bi-pole speaker there I could cover a better portion of that opening (about 7 feet to the other speaker).

My question is if the speaker is 3 sided, see link and right up next to the wall of the bookshelf on one side(center most point I can get it too), will that speaker even be effective? Or should I just go with a standard bookshelf and let it shoot out straight?

Thanks Steve

[kpkelley]

Originally Posted by callas01

My question is if the speaker is 3 sided, see link and right up next to the wall of the bookshelf on one side(center most point I can get it too), will that speaker even be effective? Or should I just go with a standard bookshelf and let it shoot out straight?

Thanks Steve

There are a few things to consider. Firstly, how high is the shelf on which it will sit. Surround speakers should be several feet about your ear level when you are seated, about 7 feet off the floor. However, since this will be on a shelf you will need it to be much lower as the shelf will radiate the sound upward. So you need this shelf to be nearer to your ear level.

Furthermore, the surround speaker will need to have space between the sides of the bookshelf to radiate the sound in both horizontal directions. If the shelf is too narrow the sound will bounce back upon itself and not disperse into a wide listening field. This brings up another issue, reflections from the bookshelf. The shelf it's in should be accoustically treated with either a foam or some sort of cloth to absorb some of the acoustic reflections.

If you can solve these issue then it should do very well and give you a wider more enveloping sound than a bookshelf speaker.

[ozzman]

I was thinking to do this myself.Using to bookshelves instead of my Paradigm ADP-170,

shttp://reviews.cnet.com/separate-speakers/paradigm-adp-170/4507-7869_7-30112538.html?tag=mncol;psum

I was told by big Daddy to leave them the way they are.But Am interested where this thread will go

[Steve]

I've often wondered myself how well a single bi-pole speaker would work in the surround back position of a 6.1 setup. I would love to hear from some who have tried it.

[callas01]

well I was thinking of pulling the speaker out some to try and get it past the bookshelf enclosure as far as possible, But the speaker is only 5 inches deep so I am not sure how far it will extend out.

[kpkelley]

Originally Posted by callas01

well I was thinking of pulling the speaker out some to try and get it past the bookshelf enclosure as far as possible, But the speaker is only 5 inches deep so I am not sure how far it will extend out.

I suppose that you could mount it to a piece of wood so that it extend outside the shelf and solves those boundary issues. Then you could mount it at the proper height.

You would have to have two peices of wood in an L shape, along with some sort of counterweigth for the speaker. Then you could pull the speaker out when in use and slide it back into the shelf when you are not using it. This way you wouldn't damage the bookshelf by nailing/screwing the pieces of wood into the shelf.

[ozzman]

Originally Posted by callas01

Hey guys, I have a question.... I use a 6.1 system, and I just sold my old 5.1 Sonys cause I got the Energy 3.1, so that left me with one empty spot(I had a pair of bookshelves left over which added up to 5.1), BUT I want to keep it a 6.1 cause of the way my house is there would be a huge gap in the rear speakers.

OK, so I have a bookshelf that takes up the whole back wall until you get to the opening for the dining room. I currently use the 6th speaker in the book shelf towards the far end of the bookshelf right at the opening of the dining room. I was thinking that with a bi-pole speaker there I could cover a better portion of that opening (about 7 feet to the other speaker).

My question is if the speaker is 3 sided, see link and right up next to the wall of the bookshelf on one side(center most point I can get it too), will that speaker even be effective? Or should I just go with a standard bookshelf and let it shoot out straight?

Thanks Steve

Does the bookshelf have to be there?

[callas01]

Originally Posted by ozzman

Does the bookshelf have to be there?

Yeah, its built into the house.

[callas01]

Originally Posted by kpkelley

I suppose that you could mount it to a piece of wood so that it extend outside the shelf and solves those boundary issues. Then you could mount it at the proper height.

You would have to have two peices of wood in an L shape, along with some sort of counterweigth for the speaker. Then you could pull the speaker out when in use and slide it back into the shelf when you are not using it. This way you wouldn't damage the bookshelf by nailing/screwing the pieces of wood into the shelf.

interesting idea..

[jomari]

Originally Posted by fireman325

I've often wondered myself how well a single bi-pole speaker would work in the surround back position of a 6.1 setup. I would love to hear from some who have tried it.

IF the room was large enough, plus having the 3 surrounds properly placed, youd have a very good spatial environment. if ever you had a smaller HT room, i think it would be less beneficial to have that additional speaker. as ive mentioned before, a greatly studied 5.1 system will always outperform a mediocre 7.1 system.

Originally Posted by kpkelley

I suppose that you could mount it to a piece of wood so that it extend outside the shelf and solves those boundary issues. Then you could mount it at the proper height.

You would have to have two peices of wood in an L shape, along with some sort of counterweigth for the speaker. Then you could pull the speaker out when in use and slide it back into the shelf when you are not using it. This way you wouldn't damage the bookshelf by nailing/screwing the pieces of wood into the shelf.

not a bad idea as well. i was going to suggest to get a plank instead, measure equally to the shelving width, and place it on top of the mentioned shelf. sort of creating a lip for the said surround speaker.

to weigh it down, you can consider placing books on top of the mentioned 'lip' and remove it only when needed. you can probably consider keeping a slack on your surround, and put in in the shelve below for storage.

so, when its movie time, you can put the speaker on the said shelving unit, gently pushing it just enough for it to be safely sitting on the shelve, and enjoy.

looking at your pictures, you can try that with some of the books right now, and find a larger book as an experiment.

these are just quick fixes, and i cant guarantee the best sound out of it due to placement, but we have to compromise somewhere right? best of luck.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by jomari

IF the room was large enough, plus having the 3 surrounds properly placed, youd have a very good spatial environment. if ever you had a smaller HT room, i think it would be less beneficial to have that additional speaker. as ive mentioned before, a greatly studied 5.1 system will always outperform a mediocre 7.1 system.

I completely agree with what you're saying. I'm just a little curious, though, how would the performance be if, instead of using 2 monopoles for 7.1, you just used 1 good bi-pole for 6.1.

not a bad idea as well. i was going to suggest to get a plank instead, measure equally to the shelving width, and place it on top of the mentioned shelf. sort of creating a lip for the said surround speaker.

to weigh it down, you can consider placing books on top of the mentioned 'lip' and remove it only when needed. you can probably consider keeping a slack on your surround, and put in in the shelve below for storage.

so, when its movie time, you can put the speaker on the said shelving unit, gently pushing it just enough for it to be safely sitting on the shelve, and enjoy.

looking at your pictures, you can try that with some of the books right now, and find a larger book as an experiment.

these are just quick fixes, and i cant guarantee the best sound out of it due to placement, but we have to compromise somewhere right? best of luck.

I also thought this was an interesting idea. Another option the OP could consider if he wants to do a little DIY'ing is to make the previously mentioned L shaped bracket to mount his speaker on, and mount that bracket into the bookcase with some drawer hardware. Slide it out to watch a movie, and push it back in when not in use. It would also have the benefit that he couldn't accidentally pull it out too far and drop it.

[jomari]

I completely agree with what you're saying. I'm just a little curious, though, how would the performance be if, instead of using 2 monopoles for 7.1, you just used 1 good bi-pole for a 7.1.

wierd. it didnt quote you.

anyways, im assuming you would like to know how direct radiating speakers would sound compared to bipoles?

we can expand on this in so many levels,
if receiver running 7.1,
are we connecting the surround back (last two channels) to
1. one bipole speaker?
2. using one channel/speaker connection? which one SB left, or right?

as ive learned here, (and probably oversimpifying it), you would be folding the signal used for 7.1 into 6.1, losing information that you are sending to two individual speakers, and tossing them into one speaker.

theoretically, id say you are losing 'minimal' signal due to one channel lost, but also can impact the spatiality of your environment. hmm. lets use the lounge environment (like your in a bar so to speak) analysis... you can hear the small conversations (lets say march madness) in the fronts, panning to the back you can hear the same conversation, but when the camera moves further (pushing the panning to your two extra surrounds), you wouldnt get as much information as you would using the 2 surrounds as you would with the bipole. you would probably get spatiality, but not get detail in the back. so, that clear conversation about march madness you were hearin earlier wont be as clear as youd like to hear in the back. its 'there'. but not clear enough.

[jomari]

Originally Posted by ozzman

I was thinking to do this myself.Using to bookshelves instead of my Paradigm ADP-170,
I was told by big Daddy to leave them the way they are.But Am interested where this thread will go

ozzies addicted to posting pictures now i see...

[Steve]

Originally Posted by jomari

anyways, im assuming you would like to know how direct radiating speakers would sound compared to bipoles?

we can expand on this in so many levels,
if receiver running 7.1,
are we connecting the surround back (last two channels) to
1. one bipole speaker?
2. using one channel/speaker connection? which one SB left, or right?

I looked this scenario up in the manual for my receiver once (Onkyo 605) and it stated for a 6.1 setup, to only connect one specific surround back channel. I don't remember off the top of my head which one, but the receiver would "know" it was a 6.1 setup when you run Audyssey I guess.

as ive learned here, (and probably oversimpifying it), you would be folding the signal used for 7.1 into 6.1, losing information that you are sending to two individual speakers, and tossing them into one speaker.

theoretically, id say you are losing 'minimal' signal due to one channel lost, but also can impact the spatiality of your environment. hmm. lets use the lounge environment (like your in a bar so to speak) analysis... you can hear the small conversations (lets say march madness) in the fronts, panning to the back you can hear the same conversation, but when the camera moves further (pushing the panning to your two extra surrounds), you wouldnt get as much information as you would using the 2 surrounds as you would with the bipole. you would probably get spatiality, but not get detail in the back. so, that clear conversation about march madness you were hearin earlier wont be as clear as youd like to hear in the back. its 'there'. but not clear enough.

You do bring up a good point. The reason I'm curious about it to begin with is because I've read some posts where people said they could definitely tell where the surround back speakers are in 7.1 setups (improper setups? Who knows?). That made me wonder how well bipoles would work in that position, but would you still need two, or would one suffice? Would it be worthwhile to trade off some detail for better diffusion? This is purely theoretical as far as I'm concerned because in my room there's only enough space for 5.1.

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by fireman325

I looked this scenario up in the manual for my receiver once (Onkyo 605) and it stated for a 6.1 setup, to only connect one specific surround back channel. I don't remember off the top of my head which one, but the receiver would "know" it was a 6.1 setup when you run Audyssey I guess.

Surround back left for the Onkyos.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by jomari

if receiver running 7.1,
are we connecting the surround back (last two channels) to
1. one bipole speaker?
2. using one channel/speaker connection? which one SB left, or right?

On my Denon 4308ci receiver, when you go to the setup menu to say "Yes" or "No" for Surround Back, there are two options: 2spkrs and 1spkrs.

Also, when you connect only one surround back speaker, the single speaker is connected to the left channel. This way, the receiver will send information for both rear surrounds to one speaker.

I assume other Denon receivers work the same.

[jomari]

Originally Posted by fireman325

I looked this scenario up in the manual for my receiver once (Onkyo 605) and it stated for a 6.1 setup, to only connect one specific surround back channel. I don't remember off the top of my head which one, but the receiver would "know" it was a 6.1 setup when you run Audyssey I guess.

im assuming you can set that up in the speaker setup options. im not familiar with onkyos but its probably in the manual. best place to start.

Originally Posted by fireman325

You do bring up a good point. The reason I'm curious about it to begin with is because I've read some posts where people said they could definitely tell where the surround back speakers are in 7.1 setups (improper setups? Who knows?). That made me wonder how well bipoles would work in that position, but would you still need two, or would one suffice? Would it be worthwhile to trade off some detail for better diffusion? This is purely theoretical as far as I'm concerned because in my room there's only enough space for 5.1.

you do have to remember that to each his own setup. maybe they have a 7.1 in a 10x11 room thus giving the illusion of spatiality, whereas the room itself would be a tad too small for such a setup. or the fact that you have a larger room, but perfectly placed surrounds, giving the same amount of openness.

bipoles in nature (see this thread) are in phase, giving you 'two for the price of one' so to speak. this can be beneficial in some home theater rooms, but also a disadvantage due to placement and room interaction. you might have too much spatiality so to speak.

if we are talking 5.1, id prefer to have two bipoles in such situation, and properly placing them as shown in the illustration in the aforementioned thread...



well balanced diffusion, with less chances of interacting too much with the room.

if bipoles are to be used in a 7.1 situation, for a smaller room, id think thered be too much spatiality. but thats just me.

Originally Posted by fireman325

Would it be worthwhile to trade off some detail for better diffusion? This is purely theoretical as far as I'm concerned because in my room there's only enough space for 5.1.

good point. is it worth trading off more detail to get diffusion? if thats the case id be radical enough to say go with dolby surround instead, heck use one of those dsp modes they've been raving about. its sort of stepping backwards instead of moving forward imo. to trade off that amount of detail to just get 'ambiance' in the background, would be a disadvantage in my book, losing certain details that would distract you from the movie itself.

a good movie to use as an example would be 'Hunted' with tommy lee jones as well as Benicio del toro. one scene where hes in the forest, 'hunting' the two special agents, he ends up talking, with his voice moving from the fronts, to the left surround, to the right, then back again to the right front. that whole time you should hear what he's saying clear enough, to give you that feeling you are surrounded by him...

[kingofgrills]

Originally Posted by callas01

well I was thinking of pulling the speaker out some to try and get it past the bookshelf enclosure as far as possible, But the speaker is only 5 inches deep so I am not sure how far it will extend out.

Callas, if you can move your surround speakers to the top of your bookcase, that bi-pole rear surround speaker would work well. I run a 6.1 setup using a single monopole rear surround speaker with 180 degree dispersion, creating the same left-to-right effect as the Energy surround speaker. My rear surrounds sit on the top of a bookcase as well, so they-re in the open and don't refract off bookcase shelves and dividers.

If you can't move your surrounds to the top of the bookcase, I would suggest getting a direct firing bookshelf speaker. Otherwise, you'll hear the refracting and interference caused by the bookcase. Finally, I was looking through your gallery, which looks good by the way, and I saw that your center channel is recessed an inch or two into your stand. I would suggest moving the center forward so it is flush with the front of the stand. That will help keep sound from reflecting off your stand, and that will help keep your mid/bass sounding clear - not nasally.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by jomari

you do have to remember that to each his own setup. maybe they have a 7.1 in a 10x11 room thus giving the illusion of spatiality, whereas the room itself would be a tad too small for such a setup. or the fact that you have a larger room, but perfectly placed surrounds, giving the same amount of openness.

bipoles in nature (see this thread) are in phase, giving you 'two for the price of one' so to speak. this can be beneficial in some home theater rooms, but also a disadvantage due to placement and room interaction. you might have too much spatiality so to speak.

if we are talking 5.1, id prefer to have two bipoles in such situation, and properly placing them as shown in the illustration in the aforementioned thread...



well balanced diffusion, with less chances of interacting too much with the room.

if bipoles are to be used in a 7.1 situation, for a smaller room, id think thered be too much spatiality. but thats just me.



good point. is it worth trading off more detail to get diffusion? if thats the case id be radical enough to say go with dolby surround instead, heck use one of those dsp modes they've been raving about. its sort of stepping backwards instead of moving forward imo. to trade off that amount of detail to just get 'ambiance' in the background, would be a disadvantage in my book, losing certain details that would distract you from the movie itself.

a good movie to use as an example would be 'Hunted' with tommy lee jones as well as Benicio del toro. one scene where hes in the forest, 'hunting' the two special agents, he ends up talking, with his voice moving from the fronts, to the left surround, to the right, then back again to the right front. that whole time you should hear what he's saying clear enough, to give you that feeling you are surrounded by him...

You bring up several good points. Again, this is just a purely theoretical discussion that I find interesting. I hope none of my posts came across as "this is the way you should do it". I was only exploring possibilities, and I appreciate all your comments, as well as the pic in your previous post. Here in the real world, I use a bipole setup similar to the one in that pic, and as far as I'm concerned it's wonderful. The differences are that the bipoles are farther apart, and my sofa is against the rear wall. I'm sure it's not the "perfect" placement for everything, but with my room, furniture, and equipment, the placement options are limited.

[ozzman]

Originally Posted by jomari

ozzies addicted to posting pictures now i see...

Yeah,Its sad but true LOL.Iam Guilty as charged LOL