Why flashRAM is of little threat to blu-ray - Blu-ray Forum

tron3 · 06-02-2008, 01:46 PM

COST. Yes, I know everything comes down in price eventually. However, semi-conductor technology is pricey in general. They are prone to mass production errors, long production times, general fatigue, and electric shock. How would you like walk across your carpet to get your favorite movie only to have the static jolt destroy it?

Since the inception of the record NOTHING is cheaper and more reliable than hard pressed media. Period. Yes, mass produced DVD and blu-ray movies are pressed mediums, not burned. (Unless someone knows something about BD which I do not.)

So unless flashRAM is another kind of hard pressed medium, the success is already questionable. Plus we have to contend with fallout of the HD DVD vs blu-ray war. I highly doubt the studios want to create another format war. I think even techo die hards would wait this one out. What good is ANOTHER HDM player with no new content?

Disc has been the past, the present, and will be the future for a long time. Sure, other disc technologies like laserdisc and video disc didn't become as prolific, but it wasn't the fault of the disc concept. Part of me believes a blu-ray compatible holographic disc could also be the future. Holo-disc may only need be 3" in diameter because of the ultra high recording density. But it is still a disc.

One of the great selling points of the first 3.5" floppy drives over the 5.25" discs was more storage space you could fit in your shirt pocket. This could very well be a selling point of 3" HDM disc. While I am in no rush to see our current crop of 4.75" discs go away, I do firmly believe hard pressed media will remain the cheapest, most reliable way to mass produce home entertainment content for a LONG time.

Sometimes digital isn't better, it's just digital.

TheTenth · 06-02-2008, 02:32 PM

Really, I'm bored of the CD/DVD disc format. It's still prone to scratches (most happen during transport), heat (forget a disc in a car or near an oven), write defects ... There once was a mini hard drive cartridge format (Syquest) I found nice for Amiga where you had a main device where you could put the cartridge in and transport easily without risk. Maybe a holographic / syquest mix could fit this?

syquest pics :
Amiga_SyQuest.jpg

Amiga_Walker.jpg

tron3 · 06-02-2008, 02:46 PM

Tenth, those just aren't practical. It's been proven many people HATE those disc cassette sytems. ANY mass storage medium is subject to errors. This is why we have a type of CRC - cyclic redundancy check on so many devices.

Hard disc drives are fast, safe and secure, but once the servo dies, you really can't just pop the data platter on a new motor. Tapes stretch, snap, and wear. The hard coating on BD makes them the most reliable mass storage medium to date. You could kill a hundred readers but your disc could remain completely readable decades from now. Not only is hard media better, removeable media is best!

As for heat killing your disc media in your car, so could sitting on them. Should we make hard media so indestructable that they lose all the benefit of being cheap to produce? Hard coating is a step in the right direction. But it may be a while before we see "oven proof" discs in commercial applications.

Clark Kent · 06-02-2008, 07:06 PM

Anyone with a sane grasp of reality recognizes that RAM media just isn't practical right now from an economic or manufacturing standpoint. It might be a technology for consumer media in ten years though. The only place I ever see this seriously brought up as beating out Blu-ray is from disgruntled former HD DVD owners.

CptGreedle · 06-02-2008, 07:13 PM

The way I see it... the new Apple Macbook Air has an optional SSD (Solid State Drive) that uses the same technology that thumb drives use. This is a faster and more efficient (and supposedly stable but that remains to be seen) technology than HDD, but to add this to the Air, well lets put it like this.
For a mere $1000, you can "upgrade" the 80GB HDD to a 60GB SSD.
At that price.... I don't think it is going to be selling out anytime soon.
THis is a bold move to promote the SSD technology, but it will still be a long long time before a 50GB, or even 25GB SSD thumb drive is available AND affordable... let alone main stream! Sure you can get 2GB for $20 (or less), but the more GB it has, the higher the price exponentially!
So it will be at least 5-10 years before we see anything viable in the realm of thumb drives to compete against Blu-ray. MORE than enough time for Blu-ray to establish itself as the primary and ideal choice for HD movies.
I welcome any technology that can match or excel the quality of a Blu-ray, but i just don't see anything else that is viable right now so it is not looking good for the file-transfer tech right now.

Only the disgruntled HD DVD promoting reporters are saying that Blu-ray will lose or is losing to internet or thumb drives.... and they are very wrong as all the evidence is pointing out the Blu-ray is taking off! It's a pity that so many people listen to them and believe that farce!

dv8pdx · 06-03-2008, 11:27 AM

I’m all for Flash RAM technology!! Obviously not right now with current development, but I’m for the progress of technology and Flash RAM does have its bennies! And I’m ok with waiting for this technology to perfect and cheapen over the next 10 years. I think it will be a big hit in the future of gaming, but still have huge bennies in HD video when it gets bigger and more affordable. Imagine huge in depth video games with no load times, no loading between levels, saving games right to the game card to take with you etc. And a movie with no scratching and skipping or warping and cracks, fewer moving parts for longer life of the players, not to mention, smaller more compact players because of few moving parts. It’s a media I gladly await to come, even if it takes a while. And I walk on my carpet ever day, and have yet to loose the images on my flash card from my camera when carrying it (I’m a part time photographer, so the card is in my hands a lot), so I’m not really worried about that issue. The CD is kind of becoming like the cassette... it changed the world, served its purpose, now... what’s next??!!

And even though I’m all for it, I've never been a supporter, nor a fan of HD-DVD, I’ve been Blu from day 1, so sorry to burst your theory Clark Kent... but some of us like technology to move forward, other wise the world would be sending snail mail blog's and forums from their commodore 64's printed on Dot Matrix...

I have atari and super nintendo games that still play today... I can only image after 25 years what my kids disc games would look like, if even playable after all that time. Ive stepped on the cartriges, thrown them, left them in the car, shoved them in a drawer... as well as you teach kids to be careful of things... kids will be kids and the cartrige was almost undistructable... even today.

But... Im happy with my blu until the day comes...

binarymelon · 06-03-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptGreedle

Sure you can get 2GB for $20 (or less), but the more GB it has, the higher the price exponentially!

Not true

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pro...01&catid=11433
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pro...02&catid=11433
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pro...10&catid=25942

TIki_Guy · 06-03-2008, 11:45 AM

Did you see that staples is bringing back Divix, self destructing DVDs?

http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/007040.html

Worst idea ever.

Well the flash drive is a much better idea for this! I have a 16GB flash drive now, it wasn't cheep but it was under $100. So in about a yeaar 32GB one will be about the same.

I could see insted of going to staples and paying $5 for a DVD that I have to throw out Going to Staples and coping an HD movie to my flash drive that won't work after 48 hours after first play. (assuming the download was really fast from something like red box) I imagine the USB on the PS3 could handle it with a firmware updates. There would be no waist the Flash drive is re-usable. This may not be the best idea for HiDef Video rentals but it's so much better then Flexplay!

tron3 · 06-03-2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TIki_Guy

Did you see that staples is bringing back Divix, self destructing DVDs?

http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/007040.html

Worst idea ever.

...!

Holy mother of cow crap, Batman. All in the name of not having to return a disc you make it rot from the O2 in the air? Sure, this is all America needs, MORE TRASH.

I hope the rental places nix this idea. Suppose you get a thousand copies of this movie to rent and only 100 people rent it? What happens to the other 900 movies? No, they don't stay in stock indefinately. Even if you "fire sale" them they are not likely to get all sold. What if you come up short with rental discs? But eventually, it all goes in the trash! This is completely without social conscience. Disgusting.

WickyWoo · 06-03-2008, 04:43 PM

Divx was a pay per view system, this is FlexPlay

The company is desperite they thought this would be the next big thing.

Don't worry about it. It bombed out totally with a decent push from Disney, it'll bomb out again here.

sparksj · 06-03-2008, 07:57 PM

Isn't part of the high price for flash ram the size? What if they made a 50GB card but made it the size of a credit card. Would it still cost as much?

Of course the nice thing about using a flash drive is that as time progesses, the same size card will continue to increase its capacity. Less of a limit than physical discs.

dk3dknight · 06-03-2008, 08:19 PM

I have to admit I never even considered flash drive a way to distribute movies... it sounds like a bad idea out of a book of bad ideas made by a author of bad ideas published by a company of bad ideas...

Ive seen them have a bad life span usualy 1-3 years and then it fails or gets lost.

Except my precious sony one that matches my ps3 perfectly (cries of its beauty) anyway...

WickyWoo · 06-03-2008, 08:36 PM

It's the size to a degree.

Let me put it this way

50GB for a manufacturing cost of under $2 is safe to say is at least 15 years away

CptGreedle · 06-03-2008, 08:38 PM

Perhaps flash cards as small as 8 GB is still "affordable", but that is still only 8 GB. Plus that 8GB is over $60. The price is still way to high, and the space is insufficient.

How reliable are these flash cards nowadays? I do have another concern, if these things are this small now, when they hold 50GB or 25GB or whatnot, how much bigger, if any, will they be? The point is, they are so small, i am afraid of losing or breaking it and losing the movie as well. That is just another thing.
I have lost many a file from corrupted drives like these.... not too reliable last I checked.

Branden · 06-03-2008, 09:04 PM

flashRAM is a great medium but the biggest disadvantage right now is cost. it doesn't theaten blu-ray now and it likely won't for the duration of blu-ray's commercial expectancy. having an optional SSD in notebooks now will really help bring prices down and drive up demand. having experienced HDD failures myself i do look forward to the day i can say good-bye to my volatile magnetic HDDs and replace them with affordable SSDs.
i do expect that years from now when the next format war emerges perhaps flashRAM may have reached the point of being a viable option for physical media. optical media is ideal right now but we can't expect moving parts technology to stick around forever.

CptGreedle · 06-03-2008, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Branden

flashRAM is a great medium but the biggest disadvantage right now is cost. it doesn't theaten blu-ray now and it likely won't for the duration of blu-ray's commercial expectancy. having an optional SSD in notebooks now will really help bring prices down and drive up demand. having experienced HDD failures myself i do look forward to the day i can say good-bye to my volatile magnetic HDDs and replace them with affordable SSDs.
i do expect that years from now when the next format war emerges perhaps flashRAM may have reached the point of being a viable option for physical media. optical media is ideal right now but we can't expect moving parts technology to stick around forever.

agreed.
Someday, I hope they can fit the quality of a Blu-ray on flash drives and sell them like that. Even allow you to rent them or store multiple movies on one small drive.

As long as they are not weak to magnets, this will be a great technology someday. But Blu-ray still has a long life before that will happen. Even if 5 or 6 years go by, (should be longer though) it is enough for Blu-ray to remain on top while flashRAM gets going. Ideally, one would be able to download a HIGH quality movie, as good as a Blu-ray, at home or a local rental store, and store them onto Flash drives, play them anywhere at any resolution, and even make backups.

Someday, but not yet. Not yet.

Mikeblu · 06-03-2008, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dk3dknight

I have to admit I never even considered flash drive a way to distribute movies... it sounds like a bad idea out of a book of bad ideas made by a author of bad ideas published by a company of bad ideas...

If a book of about failure doesn't sell, does that mean its a succes?

dk3dknight · 06-03-2008, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeblu

If a book of about failure doesn't sell, does that mean its a succes?

Its still a failure, talking about failures or being about failures does not grant it success..
For it is a unsuccessful book full of failures...

Unless the book is about how to fail and one of the items was to make a book on how to fail... then I guess yes that would be so, but not within the requirements or specifications you gave.

or better yet, a book on how to write a book that fails.. that would be funny I think...

Rhygar · 06-04-2008, 03:19 AM

How long will it take to copy 50GB onto a flash drive? How long does it take to press a Blu-Ray disc? I would guess that pressing a Blu-Ray disc is orders of magnitude faster than copying onto a flash drive.

For efficient mass production of movies the current physical media beats flash drives on that front.

Mikeblu · 06-04-2008, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dk3dknight

Its still a failure, talking about failures or being about failures does not grant it success..
For it is a unsuccessful book full of failures...

Unless the book is about how to fail and one of the items was to make a book on how to fail... then I guess yes that would be so, but not within the requirements or specifications you gave.

or better yet, a book on how to write a book that fails.. that would be funny I think...

huh

dude it was j-o-k-e

06-02-2008, 01:46 PM	#1
tron3 Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Aug 2004 Location:New Jersey Blu-ray reviews:3	Why flashRAM is of little threat to blu-ray COST. Yes, I know everything comes down in price eventually. However, semi-conductor technology is pricey in general. They are prone to mass production errors, long production times, general fatigue, and electric shock. How would you like walk across your carpet to get your favorite movie only to have the static jolt destroy it? Since the inception of the record NOTHING is cheaper and more reliable than hard pressed media. Period. Yes, mass produced DVD and blu-ray movies are pressed mediums, not burned. (Unless someone knows something about BD which I do not.) So unless flashRAM is another kind of hard pressed medium, the success is already questionable. Plus we have to contend with fallout of the HD DVD vs blu-ray war. I highly doubt the studios want to create another format war. I think even techo die hards would wait this one out. What good is ANOTHER HDM player with no new content? Disc has been the past, the present, and will be the future for a long time. Sure, other disc technologies like laserdisc and video disc didn't become as prolific, but it wasn't the fault of the disc concept. Part of me believes a blu-ray compatible holographic disc could also be the future. Holo-disc may only need be 3" in diameter because of the ultra high recording density. But it is still a disc. One of the great selling points of the first 3.5" floppy drives over the 5.25" discs was more storage space you could fit in your shirt pocket. This could very well be a selling point of 3" HDM disc. While I am in no rush to see our current crop of 4.75" discs go away, I do firmly believe hard pressed media will remain the cheapest, most reliable way to mass produce home entertainment content for a LONG time. Sometimes digital isn't better, it's just digital. Last edited by tron3; 06-02-2008 at 07:11 PM.

06-02-2008, 02:46 PM	#3
tron3 Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Aug 2004 Location:New Jersey Blu-ray reviews:3	Tenth, those just aren't practical. It's been proven many people HATE those disc cassette sytems. ANY mass storage medium is subject to errors. This is why we have a type of CRC - cyclic redundancy check on so many devices. Hard disc drives are fast, safe and secure, but once the servo dies, you really can't just pop the data platter on a new motor. Tapes stretch, snap, and wear. The hard coating on BD makes them the most reliable mass storage medium to date. You could kill a hundred readers but your disc could remain completely readable decades from now. Not only is hard media better, removeable media is best! As for heat killing your disc media in your car, so could sitting on them. Should we make hard media so indestructable that they lose all the benefit of being cheap to produce? Hard coating is a step in the right direction. But it may be a while before we see "oven proof" discs in commercial applications. Last edited by tron3; 06-02-2008 at 03:31 PM.

06-03-2008, 11:27 AM	#6
dv8pdx Expert Member Member since:Feb 2008 Location:Portland Oregon Blu-ray collection:150	I’m all for Flash RAM technology!! Obviously not right now with current development, but I’m for the progress of technology and Flash RAM does have its bennies! And I’m ok with waiting for this technology to perfect and cheapen over the next 10 years. I think it will be a big hit in the future of gaming, but still have huge bennies in HD video when it gets bigger and more affordable. Imagine huge in depth video games with no load times, no loading between levels, saving games right to the game card to take with you etc. And a movie with no scratching and skipping or warping and cracks, fewer moving parts for longer life of the players, not to mention, smaller more compact players because of few moving parts. It’s a media I gladly await to come, even if it takes a while. And I walk on my carpet ever day, and have yet to loose the images on my flash card from my camera when carrying it (I’m a part time photographer, so the card is in my hands a lot), so I’m not really worried about that issue. The CD is kind of becoming like the cassette... it changed the world, served its purpose, now... what’s next??!! And even though I’m all for it, I've never been a supporter, nor a fan of HD-DVD, I’ve been Blu from day 1, so sorry to burst your theory Clark Kent... but some of us like technology to move forward, other wise the world would be sending snail mail blog's and forums from their commodore 64's printed on Dot Matrix... I have atari and super nintendo games that still play today... I can only image after 25 years what my kids disc games would look like, if even playable after all that time. Ive stepped on the cartriges, thrown them, left them in the car, shoved them in a drawer... as well as you teach kids to be careful of things... kids will be kids and the cartrige was almost undistructable... even today. But... Im happy with my blu until the day comes... Last edited by dv8pdx; 06-03-2008 at 11:58 AM.

Similar Threads
thread	Forum	Thread Starter	Replies	Last Post
Another Emerging Threat to Blu?	General Chat	J_UNTITLED	22	05-24-2008 03:41 AM
Discussion: HD downloads are not a threat to Blu-ray	Blu-ray Technology and Future Technology	Carmien	296	03-01-2008 03:55 PM
Does Blu-ray's future have a new threat?	Blu-ray Technology and Future Technology	Deane Johnson	55	02-12-2008 05:32 AM
Downloads: NOT a threat to Blu-Ray	Blu-ray Technology and Future Technology	photorebel	48	01-18-2008 06:05 PM
Biggest threat to Blu-ray is not HD-DVD but DVD	Blu-ray Technology and Future Technology	Blu-ray San	25	09-07-2007 09:58 PM

06-02-2008, 02:32 PM	#2
TheTenth Special Member Member since:Aug 2007 Location:Clermont-Ferrand, France Home Theater Gallery:9 4K collection:98 Blu-ray collection:681 DVD collection:1 Blu-ray reviews:11	Really, I'm bored of the CD/DVD disc format. It's still prone to scratches (most happen during transport), heat (forget a disc in a car or near an oven), write defects ... There once was a mini hard drive cartridge format (Syquest) I found nice for Amiga where you had a main device where you could put the cartridge in and transport easily without risk. Maybe a holographic / syquest mix could fit this? syquest pics : Amiga_SyQuest.jpg Amiga_Walker.jpg

06-02-2008, 07:06 PM	#4
Clark Kent Blu-ray Prince Top contributor Member since:Oct 2007 Location:Metropolis Blu-ray reviews:2 Trading Score:184	Anyone with a sane grasp of reality recognizes that RAM media just isn't practical right now from an economic or manufacturing standpoint. It might be a technology for consumer media in ten years though. The only place I ever see this seriously brought up as beating out Blu-ray is from disgruntled former HD DVD owners.

06-02-2008, 07:13 PM	#5
CptGreedle Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Jul 2007 Location:Sworn super-hero now services Atlanta (and suburbs). Blu-ray collection:128 Blu-ray reviews:5	The way I see it... the new Apple Macbook Air has an optional SSD (Solid State Drive) that uses the same technology that thumb drives use. This is a faster and more efficient (and supposedly stable but that remains to be seen) technology than HDD, but to add this to the Air, well lets put it like this. For a mere $1000, you can "upgrade" the 80GB HDD to a 60GB SSD. At that price.... I don't think it is going to be selling out anytime soon. THis is a bold move to promote the SSD technology, but it will still be a long long time before a 50GB, or even 25GB SSD thumb drive is available AND affordable... let alone main stream! Sure you can get 2GB for $20 (or less), but the more GB it has, the higher the price exponentially! So it will be at least 5-10 years before we see anything viable in the realm of thumb drives to compete against Blu-ray. MORE than enough time for Blu-ray to establish itself as the primary and ideal choice for HD movies. I welcome any technology that can match or excel the quality of a Blu-ray, but i just don't see anything else that is viable right now so it is not looking good for the file-transfer tech right now. Only the disgruntled HD DVD promoting reporters are saying that Blu-ray will lose or is losing to internet or thumb drives.... and they are very wrong as all the evidence is pointing out the Blu-ray is taking off! It's a pity that so many people listen to them and believe that farce!

06-03-2008, 11:45 AM	#8
TIki_Guy Active Member Member since:Jan 2008	Did you see that staples is bringing back Divix, self destructing DVDs? http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/007040.html Worst idea ever. Well the flash drive is a much better idea for this! I have a 16GB flash drive now, it wasn't cheep but it was under $100. So in about a yeaar 32GB one will be about the same. I could see insted of going to staples and paying $5 for a DVD that I have to throw out Going to Staples and coping an HD movie to my flash drive that won't work after 48 hours after first play. (assuming the download was really fast from something like red box) I imagine the USB on the PS3 could handle it with a firmware updates. There would be no waist the Flash drive is re-usable. This may not be the best idea for HiDef Video rentals but it's so much better then Flexplay!

06-03-2008, 04:43 PM	#10
WickyWoo Blu-ray Champion Member since:May 2007 Trading Score:2	Divx was a pay per view system, this is FlexPlay The company is desperite they thought this would be the next big thing. Don't worry about it. It bombed out totally with a decent push from Disney, it'll bomb out again here.

06-03-2008, 07:57 PM	#11
sparksj Active Member Member since:Nov 2007	Isn't part of the high price for flash ram the size? What if they made a 50GB card but made it the size of a credit card. Would it still cost as much? Of course the nice thing about using a flash drive is that as time progesses, the same size card will continue to increase its capacity. Less of a limit than physical discs.

06-03-2008, 08:19 PM	#12
dk3dknight Blu-ray Ninja Member since:May 2007 Location:Arlington, Texas PSNetwork: dk3dknight PostCount: 0001 Blu-ray collection:44 Blu-ray reviews: 2	I have to admit I never even considered flash drive a way to distribute movies... it sounds like a bad idea out of a book of bad ideas made by a author of bad ideas published by a company of bad ideas... Ive seen them have a bad life span usualy 1-3 years and then it fails or gets lost. Except my precious sony one that matches my ps3 perfectly (cries of its beauty) anyway...

06-03-2008, 08:36 PM	#13
WickyWoo Blu-ray Champion Member since:May 2007 Trading Score:2	It's the size to a degree. Let me put it this way 50GB for a manufacturing cost of under $2 is safe to say is at least 15 years away

06-03-2008, 08:38 PM	#14
CptGreedle Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Jul 2007 Location:Sworn super-hero now services Atlanta (and suburbs). Blu-ray collection:128 Blu-ray reviews:5	Perhaps flash cards as small as 8 GB is still "affordable", but that is still only 8 GB. Plus that 8GB is over $60. The price is still way to high, and the space is insufficient. How reliable are these flash cards nowadays? I do have another concern, if these things are this small now, when they hold 50GB or 25GB or whatnot, how much bigger, if any, will they be? The point is, they are so small, i am afraid of losing or breaking it and losing the movie as well. That is just another thing. I have lost many a file from corrupted drives like these.... not too reliable last I checked.

06-03-2008, 09:04 PM	#15
Branden Senior Member Member since:Jun 2007 Location:Calgary, Alberta 4K collection:28 Blu-ray collection:558	flashRAM is a great medium but the biggest disadvantage right now is cost. it doesn't theaten blu-ray now and it likely won't for the duration of blu-ray's commercial expectancy. having an optional SSD in notebooks now will really help bring prices down and drive up demand. having experienced HDD failures myself i do look forward to the day i can say good-bye to my volatile magnetic HDDs and replace them with affordable SSDs. i do expect that years from now when the next format war emerges perhaps flashRAM may have reached the point of being a viable option for physical media. optical media is ideal right now but we can't expect moving parts technology to stick around forever.

06-04-2008, 03:19 AM	#19
Rhygar Member Member since:Jun 2008	How long will it take to copy 50GB onto a flash drive? How long does it take to press a Blu-Ray disc? I would guess that pressing a Blu-Ray disc is orders of magnitude faster than copying onto a flash drive. For efficient mass production of movies the current physical media beats flash drives on that front.

Best Blu-ray Movie Deals