Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Dave the Minion]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

1 - You are obviously someone who was banned from this site before!
I knew it from other Threads I've seen you post in, but this statement proves it.

2 - We prefer the Blu-Ray Format, so to not have it on Blu-Ray makes us not have it on a Format we prefer!

1. You know nothing, Gold Ranger?

2. Nice to see you do understand what entitlement is. Thank you for proving my point for me

[Shin sam]

Originally Posted by Dave the Minion

Why does the original version have to be released AGAIN? It's been on VHS and Beta. It's been on Laserdisc. And yes, it's been on DVD. Why MUST it be restored and released on Blu-ray? Because some vocal people whine about it on the internet?

And I like Jedi Rocks. Is it better than a jazzy 70' tune? Debatable. I LOVE the cantina shootout though. And other than Han's odd step-on Jabba's tail I love that scene as well.

IMHO the only changes made that don't fit well are the constant change to Ben's yell to scare the sandpeople, the oddly giant door to Jabba's palace, not that ewoks blink but that one seems forced when Wicket is looking down at Leia and Vader's "No" is as unneeded as Luke's yell in Bespin. But NONE of those make me froth at the mouth the way so many of you do denouncing something you claim you love. I watch the Blu-rays versions and enjoy everything about them that make Star Wars one of the key factors in my life.

The original versions of Star Wars are out there. Not in the pristine HD version you demand them to be, but they are there. Why waste so much of your life whining about it rather than watching them and feeling all warm and fuzzy because of giant matte lines and no Jar Jar?

Every event that passes without neary a mention of a restored, unaltered original trilogy I just laugh at all the bickering. It really is quite funny. And now Lucasfilm is just trolling you with it's "real sets, practical effects" jargon. "We went to a real desert!". Well so did George. 4 times.

I know all this falls on deaf ears of the whiners and I don't really care. You are free to share your silly opinion so I am free to share mine as well. But the common thing in threads like these is that it's the same small handful of people just going over and over and over the same silly hate while patting each other on the back for it. There are better things to do in my life, like actually enjoy Star Wars. And as stated, no one has removed your ability to do that in what ever version you prefer.

You sense of entitlement is what's doing that.

Nope. The DVD version was from the Laserdisc with half assed original Aunt Beru.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Dave the Minion

2. Nice to see you do understand what entitlement is. Thank you for proving my point for me

No, what I said wasn't entitlement.
I didn't say we should have it, just that we'd PREFER to have it!


Entitlement:
noun
1.
the act of entitling.
2.
the state of being entitled.
3.
the right to guaranteed benefits under a government program, as Social Security or unemployment compensation.

Entitling:
verb (used with object), entitled, entitling.
1.
to give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim to something; furnish with grounds for laying claim:
His executive position entitled him to certain courtesies rarely accorded others.
2.
to call by a particular title or name:
What was the book entitled?
3.
to designate (a person) by an honorary title.

Entitle:
verb (used with object), entitled, entitling.
1.
to give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim to something; furnish with grounds for laying claim:
His executive position entitled him to certain courtesies rarely accorded others.
2.
to call by a particular title or name:
What was the book entitled?
3.
to designate (a person) by an honorary title.

Want:
verb (used with object)
1.
to feel a need or a desire for; wish for:
to want one's dinner; always wanting something new.
2.
to wish, need, crave, demand, or desire (often followed by an infinitive):
I want to see you. She wants to be notified.
3.
to be without or be deficient in:
to want judgment; to want knowledge.
4.
to fall short by (a specified amount):
The sum collected wants but a few dollars of the desired amount.
5.
to require or need:
The house wants painting.
verb (used without object)
6.
to feel inclined; wish; like (often followed by to):
We can stay home if you want.
7.
to be deficient by the absence of some part or thing, or to feel or have a need (sometimes followed by for):
He did not want for abilities.
8.
to have need (usually followed by for):
If you want for anything, let him know.
9.
to be in a state of destitution, need, or poverty:
She would never allow her parents to want.
10.
to be lacking or absent, as a part or thing necessary to completeness:
All that wants is his signature.
noun
11.
something wanted or needed; necessity:
My wants are few.
12.
something desired, demanded, or required:
a person of childish, capricious wants.
13.
absence or deficiency of something desirable or requisite; lack:
plants dying for want of rain.
14.
the state of being without something desired or needed; need:
to be in want of an assistant.
15.
the state of being without the necessaries of life; destitution; poverty:
a country where want is virtually unknown.
16.
a sense of lack or need of something:
to feel a vague want.

[filmmusic]

Originally Posted by Dave the Minion

Star Wars IS out on Blu-ray.

As far as I am concerned Star Wars trilogy has not been released.
Some films that remind of the trilogy have been released.

Anyway, thank god for Harmy's editions and surviving 35mm prints.
They can continue to do whatever they want and release their Star Wars exploitation films, which have burned out Star Wars to me.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by steel_breeze

RE: sound mixes on the blu-rays… Gotta say, the Ep. IV mix is one of my LEAST favorites. I liked the old timey pre-DVD mixes wayyy better. Now, the hiss level is all over the place. I can actually hear the dialogue editing, with production noise fading in and out behind individual lines of dialogue. I can clearly pick out ADR vs. production track, etc. Very sloppy stuff. I don't have any of that problem with the other five flicks.

I've always been able to discern ADR from production audio for pretty much anything, never mind Star Wars' stuff which has stood out like a sore thumb for as long as I've been watching the movie. I've always heard the editing in the dialogue with SW too, a few lines sound like they get cut off a fraction too early (when Tarkin says "Evacuate? In our moment of triumph?" the 'ph' sound at the end gets truncated) which is no surprise given how hectic the post-production was on this movie, and the same goes for the less-than-stellar ADR quality itself. To that end the pre-DVD mixes aren't as clean and sharp so they sound smoother and more forgiving, so when they went back and redid it for the DVD it exposed a whole host of problems inherent to the seat-of-the-pants nature of the production.

One of the biggest complaints about the 2004 DVD mix - aside from the flopped music in the surrounds and the dialled down force fanfare in the X-wing dive - was how the dialogue in the Moff Tarkin "You would prefer another target?" scene was all over the place, going from badly muffled to pin-sharp from line to line; such is the effect of newly mixing near 40-year-old ADR.

So they remixed the film again, from scratch, for the Blu-ray and smoothed it out some. Can we still tell it's ADR? Of course. Are the editing seams still audible? Yep. But is it as badly uneven as the DVD? Not to my ears. Factor in the proper layout for the music in the surrounds (which they flopped for the DVD because the music stems they were using had no surround information, so they faked it) plus the reinstated force fanfare and I find the Blu-ray mix to be infinitely preferable to the DVD. The Laserdisc still wins, though.

And yes, the dialogue is much more smoothly integrated on Empire and Jedi but that's simply because they had more money and time to get it right back in the day. It's unfortunate then that those DVD/BD mixes fall short elsewhere, with the clipping in the surrounds being the lowlight.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Dave the Minion

Yet everyone agrees they will always disagree on what VFX changes they find to be stupid. As a whole, the loud vocal minority can't make up their mind what's good and what's bad. So when some "new" version comes out there will still be internet soapboxes for people with little good to contribute to the world to shout their silly outrage upon.

Yeah kinda.

I really think a simple "original theatrical cuts" and 2011 SE cuts combo set would please 99% of people. There would still be some weirdos who liked the earlier SE cuts but not the BDs or whatever, but they would be rare.

I think theatrical cuts being preserved is important for the medium, even if you prefer the SEs.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

1 - You are obviously someone who was banned from this site before!
I knew it from other Threads I've seen you post in, but this statement proves it.

Found a new most likely candidate for the previous username of "Dave the Minion", as the below post combines both the tired old "entitled" argument with claiming that standard-def is sufficient for such a historically-important film trilogy...

Originally Posted by The Film Expert (BANNED)

The prequels and special editions existing doesn't cause the entitled fan's VHS, laserdisc and DVD copies of the theatrical cuts to disappear. You can still watch the theatrical cuts if you want. While us content fans can also enjoy our special editions and prequels too in the way the creator wants them to be shown.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Yeah kinda.

I really think a simple "original theatrical cuts" and 2011 SE cuts combo set would please 99% of people. There would still be some weirdos who liked the earlier SE cuts but not the BDs or whatever, but they would be rare.

I think theatrical cuts being preserved is important for the medium, even if you prefer the SEs.

ANH: Theatrical + 2011 with Original Obi Scream
TESB: Theatrical + 2004/2011 not much was changed between the 2 versions
RotJ: Theatrical + 2011 but with NO Vader "NOOOO"

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by svenge

Found a new most likely candidate for the previous username of "Dave the Minion", as the below post combines both the tired old "entitled" argument with claiming that standard-def is sufficient for such a historically-important film trilogy...

Sounds like it!

[KMFDMvsEnya]

Here is the issue with placing the goal post for "UOT" which version of the "theatrical cuts" do you release and the fan restorations have tried to address this puzzle in several ways. Some have chosen to work on one version whereas others try to be all inclusive, then others have tried to conform what they perceive as the best versions.

For example with ANH there are different sound effects between the mono mix and the stereo mix, further changes occurred with later rereleases.

ESB also had different audio mixes but there were also editorial, as well if I recall correctly also vfx, changes between the 35mm and 70mm releases.

The majority of the fan base do not care about the minutia and will be content with whatever variant is released. Another portion are more pragmatic and acknowledge some of the minutia but want the culmination of all the best adjustments from over the years. Finally there are those that desire the mythical purest versions.

If Disney does release the "UOT" I would certainly pick it up but after all these years of watching the various versions across the respective media platforms I certainly like the many improvements, apart from the more prominent contentious alterations, that have been applied in the BR versions.

I definitely respect those noble souls that are doing their best to provide purer versions of the OT and I have enjoyed a version or two of the fruit of their labors.
May the Force be with them.

Best regards,
KvE

[HeavyHitter]

Why were there so many audio changes with the unaltered originals? Was this just Lucas tinkering even back then?

[StingingVelvet]

I would prefer the sound/visuals of the original VHS/cable TV versions honestly. I would be fine with the actual theatrical versions though.

[KMFDMvsEnya]

I would not cast the changes in such a pejorative light but in regards to ANH they were still mixing until release. I do not recall which mix was 'finished' first but I believe at the time one mix was not considered the final mix per se, just what was usable at the time for duping and release deadline.

"A movie is never finished, only abandoned." ~ George Lucas
"Art is never finished, only abandoned." — Leonardo da Vinci

Whether you agree with some of his changes to the OT over the years the sentiment is rather accurate.

In regards to LdV he, as do many artists, often would continually tweak his pieces until he no longer could.

Best regards,
KvE

PS Unfortunately some websites that I used to refer to that discussed these issues are no longer up or at the addresses I have bookmarked.
Saving Star Wars and The Secret History of Star Wars for example.

[Geoff D]

Yep, as I mentioned on the previous page they were up against it in terms of post-production time so all the different theatrical mixes had little changes here and there. Didn't they have to do the 70mm mix first to allow time for the striping of the prints? Then came the mono and the Dolby Stereo, each of which had their own alterations.

[KMFDMvsEnya]

I believe you may be correct Geoff D.

It is unfortunate that the discussion always devolves into extreme absolutes.

Equating all changes as egregious as some of the more nefarious and contentious indulgences, much of the adjustments and fixes do improve the experience of the films. Specifically the technical ones, not some of the thematic ones.

Best regards,
KvE

[svenge]

Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya

I would not cast the changes in such a pejorative light but in regards to ANH they were still mixing until release. I do not recall which mix was 'finished' first but I believe at the time one mix was not considered the final mix per se, just what was usable at the time for duping and release deadline.

From what I can gather, the 35mm Dolby Stereo and 70mm 6-track "Baby Boom" mixes were completed at about the same time using the same workflow and have very few differences. The mono mix (which used a separate workflow and contained many changes) was completed afterwards.

From there separate remixes for home video were executed in 1985 and 1993. While the 1985 mix was quite common during the VHS era (along with the 1989/1992 "Special Widescreen Edition" Laserdiscs), the 1993 mix is the one people today are most familiar with as it appeared in the 1993 "Definitive Collection" LD box set, the 1995 THX "Faces" single-film LD releases, and the 2006 "bonus feature" Limted Edition DVDs.

For a non-SE Blu-ray release I'd be OK with any of the mixes that were produced for the original theatrical run, but personally I'd like a modern recreation of the 70mm 6-track version.

[Geoff D]

And it didn't stop there, as they did the '97 SEs in 5.1 which - like a lot of early 5.1 remixes - used the discrete 70mm version as their basis, and this meant that the changes of those mixes (which had gone unheard for years) were suddenly part of the Star Wars movies once again.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And it didn't stop there, as they did the '97 SEs in 5.1 which - like a lot of early 5.1 remixes - used the discrete 70mm version as their basis, and this meant that the changes of those mixes (which had gone unheard for years) were suddenly part of the Star Wars movies once again.

I stopped there, as to me it ceased to be Star Wars in 1997.

[KMFDMvsEnya]

The pickle however is which theatrical mix does one favor?

ANH, is the Mono mix the correct and truest original SW TC mix?
It was finished last and was heard more than the Stereo version.
Yet in later iterations, various pieces of the Mono mix were included in the subsequent Stereo mixes.

Best regards,
KvE

[Geoff D]

I think you're right, IIRC the mono mix was deemed to be the final one at the time of release because it was the one that would be heard by most theater patrons, yet it's the stereo mix which took centre stage when making the transition to video. That wasn't a surprise, seeing as how stereo was the big thing for video at that time, but it meant that more changes were made over time to bring it in line with some of the choices made in the mono mix.