Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

He's more corporate machine now than man - greedy and twisted.

Not as greedy and twisted as Disney.

[BluBonnet]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

It really is amazing that post 1997 Lucas is the same man who gave us THX-1138, American Graffiti and Star Wars.

Why should it be considered amazing at all?

Some of the biggest frustrations Lucas dealt with in making the 1977 movie were related to the relatively primitive f/x technology available at the time. And it's not hard to imagine Lucas must have even more amazing visions for the SW universe, which could not be fully realized around 1977-1983.

Obviously it meant a lot to him to at least give folks an idea about how some things could have been different if CGI had been widely available during the years he was making the OT. He also slightly altered some f/x shots in THX-1138.

Lucas was absolutely instrumental to the new era of special effects, and even to CG animation (since Pixar started out as a Lucas company). Anybody who second-guesses such a brilliant genius is merely admitting belonging to an altogether lower class of people than those who, like Lucas, have forever altered pop culture, filmmaking, and lots of other innovations related to movie exhibition (such as fancy sound systems in theaters).

Lucas is a true genius... His critics? Not so much.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by MrJoeKalel

Lately I have been thinking about the whole Lucas and OT/PT situation...and I came out with one conclusion:

We as humans form attachments to things, especially to things that give us good memories. For many of us, watching a movie makes us feel better because we feel an attachment and a connection with it, and for Star Wars, many of us got more than we asked for.

However, we ALL are CONSUMERS and potential customers. Movies are products we consume. We spend $10 to buy a ticket to watch Star Wars or SPECTRE or Avengers; the movie ends, the product ends, since it was already consumed. If we liked the movie, then we get attached to it, but we should let it go. We, as humans, do not.

So, what happens when we are offered another product (the PT or SE OT) and we do not like it? We feel as if we deserve to be given the holly grail, which we do not. We are not entitled to anything. We are not entitled to the five different versions of Blade Runner, we are not entitled to the unaltered OT, or anything else. George Lucas is a chef that decided to prepare your burger a bit different, and you didn't like it, that's fine, there is no reason to demonize him and make yourselves victims. You did not like the product, that's fine, move on. We do not.

In the end it ends up being annoying listening to the same people whine about the same issues...I want the unaltered OT...Greedo shot first...Jedi Rocks is horrendous (I agree)...just move on, let it go, and enjoy what we are given, or NOT. Your choice.

I couldn't agree more with the following:

You're right that nobody is entitled to anything-- just like nobody is entitled to be free from criticism or consequences for their decisions. Honestly though, there have been so many great fan preservations of the UOT over the last decade (with Harmy's being the culmination of it all) that there's no actual reason to complain anymore, especially since it's likely that Disney will be releasing the UOT at some point.

Aside from releasing the UOT because they're historically important and it just seems like a common sense thing that should happen, Disney knows there is an audience for it and they wouldn't turn down profits from it that they're currently losing to fan preservations and bootlegs. That's probably why Lucas initially caved and okayed the "bonus material" release of them on DVD 10 years back-- fans were downloading the movies because they couldn't go buy them.

[BluBonnet]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

He's more corporate machine now than man - greedy and twisted.

Utter nonsense. His brilliance as a filmmaker is only rivaled by his skills as a consummate businessman.

Let's see any one of his critics start a business that will eventually be sold for $4 BILLION dollars.

And oh yeah, he's already said he is leaving at least HALF his fortune to charity after he dies. He will be revered by future generations.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by BluBonnet

Lucas was absolutely instrumental to the new era of special effects, and even to CG animation (since Pixar started out as a Lucas company). Anybody who second-guesses such a brilliant genius is merely admitting belonging to an altogether lower class of people than those who, like Lucas, have forever altered pop culture, filmmaking, and lots of other innovations related to movie exhibition (such as fancy sound systems in theaters).

Lucas is a true genius... His critics? Not so much.

He's a genius when it comes to visual imagination and design (and obviously business), but a genius director or writer? Not so much. Why we can't point this out without being "lower class" in your opinion is anyone's guess.

No one is a genius at everything.

[BluBonnet]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

He's a genius when it comes to visual imagination and design (and obviously business), but a genius director or writer? Not so much. Why we can't point this out without being "lower class" in your opinion is anyone's guess.

No one is a genius at everything.

I don't think anyone has ever said he's a genius director - and yet, nonetheless, he is probably the most successful independent filmmaker of all time. He pretty much self-financed all of his movies since TESB. He never had to be just a hired hand as a director again after the 1977 original movie.

[MrJoeKalel]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

And on the flip side if the studio (then Lucas) wants to release something to make money (which is why they released the box set) they should expect to hear complaints from those who didn't get what they want.

The problem will be that when (it's not a matter of IF but WHEN) they release them, fans (fanatics) will STILL be angry about it! Why? Because there will NEVER be a perfect UOT release, since all fans think differently as to how (yes, they seem to know how) it should be released.

Some people complain that the Despecialized editions should have cleaned up specks of dust and hairs, others say no...some say the colors are off, some say no...so, in the end, NOBODY will be satisfied, just like when Lucas released it as a 'special feature' in the DVDs (yes, I understand the issue with it), but still.

[MrJoeKalel]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

You're right that nobody is entitled to anything-- just like nobody is entitled to be free from criticism or consequences for their decisions. Honestly though, there have been so many great fan preservations of the UOT over the last decade (with Harmy's being the culmination of it all) that there's no actual reason to complain anymore, especially since it's likely that Disney will be releasing the UOT at some point.

Aside from releasing the UOT because they're historically important and it just seems like a common sense thing that should happen, Disney knows there is an audience for it and they wouldn't turn down profits from it that they're currently losing to fan preservations and bootlegs. That's probably why Lucas initially caved and okayed the "bonus material" release of them on DVD 10 years back-- fans were downloading the movies because they couldn't go buy them.

I agree with that 100%...and like I said, that will be another product for us to consume, and they are NOT going to pass up the chance to charge a premium for it.

Now, don't get me wrong, I want to see the movies remastered and properly preserved, but my life doesn't revolved around that.

[Arawn]

Edit: Looks like that question was already answered.

[happydood]

My ideal situation would be a re-release of the OT with no garbage mattes and a stereo mix.

I'm good with the blu-ray editions of the Prequels, horrible dialogue, bad plot points and all. To say he's not a VISUAL genius would be missing the forest for the trees, imho.

I absolutely understand fan disappointment with the Special Editions, however. He changed something that was dearly loved and not for the better. But again, I've made my peace with it. Thanks to folks on the internet with the time and passion to make watchable versions.

I kinda look at it like this: people change. Nobody does work as vital as their hungry years in nearly any medium. Unless you were Beethoven or Billie Holliday or Johnny Cash or Mozart or Brahms or Duke Ellington or Akira Kurosawa. Or are Bob Dylan or Tom Waits or John Williams. I don't think anybody would say that these people aren't geniuses if they're in their right minds.

John Lennon was a genius. Frank Sinatra was a genius. Alfred Hitchcock was a genius. Muddy Waters was a genius. Aretha Franklin was a genius (and yes I know she's still living.) No amount of work from their later years could sully what came before. In all of these cases, people did what they wanted to do when they got older because they earned the right. To deny the former due to the latter would mean you have some growing up to do.

[Blu-21]

Originally Posted by happydood

I'm good with the blu-ray editions of the Prequels, horrible dialogue, bad plot points and all. To say he's not a VISUAL genius would be missing the forest for the trees, imho.

I'd argue the only good looking BD of the prequels is ROTS.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by happydood

My ideal situation would be a re-release of the OT with no garbage mattes and a stereo mix.

You do know there is no perfect "Dolby Stereo" mix of the OT. The original sound team was tweaking those things left and right multiple times.

They were also released in 70mm mag six-track.


So, I'd say have one track that's a decent facsimile of the best of the old school 70mm mixes or Dolby Stereo mixes supervised by Rydstrom, Burtt, and the like and have the other tracks be fully blown, theatrical grade Dolby Atmos immersive re-mixes from the best sound elements available.

That way both sides can be happy.

And yes, I have no problem having them clean up the optical composites when restoring the trilogy with fresh 6k scans of the OCN's and 8k scans of the 65mm SFX elements (as was done with Blade Runner), as long as that's all they do.

[BillieCassin]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

He's a genius when it comes to visual imagination and design (and obviously business), but a genius director or writer? Not so much. Why we can't point this out without being "lower class" in your opinion is anyone's guess.

No one is a genius at everything.

Precisely. His actual record as a director is rather abysmal critically, with the exception of the original Star Wars - which as we know now had a whole lot of folks responsible for a lot of the various aspects that made it the success it was - it wasn't some singular vision, as now we have records showing that for a lot of iconic features of the film he actually fought against.

In any case, I think history will recognize him as the creator of the idea of Star Wars, but also view him as someone who got what he dreamed about but then didn't know what to do with it. I mean, look at Skywalker ranch - the millions and millions and millions spent to build - including some world class facilities that are simply among the finest of the world - that with the exception of some use during the Prequels, has been absolutely empty and gathering dust more than anything else since it's creation. His whole grand dream of the ultimate film-making campus - what he once called his true lifes work - completely failed in that respect.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

it wasn't some singular vision, as now we have records showing that for a lot of iconic features of the film he actually fought against.

Hyperbole much?

has been absolutely empty and gathering dust more than anything else since it's creation. His whole grand dream of the ultimate film-making campus - what he once called his true lifes work - completely failed in that respect.

Because the residents of Marin voted against it. Not because of some kind of personal failure you're trying to project.

[crissrudd4554]

Originally Posted by MrJoeKalel

The problem will be that when (it's not a matter of IF but WHEN) they release them, fans (fanatics) will STILL be angry about it! Why? Because there will NEVER be a perfect UOT release, since all fans think differently as to how (yes, they seem to know how) it should be released.

Some people complain that the Despecialized editions should have cleaned up specks of dust and hairs, others say no...some say the colors are off, some say no...so, in the end, NOBODY will be satisfied, just like when Lucas released it as a 'special feature' in the DVDs (yes, I understand the issue with it), but still.

No one will trully be happy because its impossible to give EVERYBODY what they want. Theres a reason why I say that a future release with the original and the SE's would be the best way to go but i also know that this proposal also has its downsides. On one hand you have fans who want the OUT but also you have fans who want the '97 SE, the current versions, and/or a new 'SE'. Rather than have a trilogy set with two cuts for each film, which is probably the way Disney will go, in the end we'd need a deluxe set for each film! As appealing as that is, youre gonna have fans feeling that its too much to invest in if they have the current BluRays unless youre a DIEHARD diehard fan. The best sceneraio is to keep it small. But also theres the case of the originals. Which originals? Are we gonna get the '77 cut of SW without 'Episode IV A New Hope' in the crawl or the '81 cut with it? The list goes on and theres the matter of the audio tracks. In regards to Lucas, trust me I hate hating on the guy who created one of my all time favorite movie franchises. But the guys disrespect for the fans has caused me to really give the guy the cold shoulder which is unfortunate because I do respect him as an artist. The man was a visionary and an important person in not only filmmaking but business and marketing as well. But the guy has really let his ego take over and I cant look up to a person like that. However thats strictly my opinion and for all of you who still support Lucas I applaud you.

[Brandon K]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

He's a genius when it comes to visual imagination and design

Yes, Ralph McQuarrie is a genius when it comes to visual design and imagination

[Lyle_JP]

Originally Posted by BluBonnet

Some of the biggest frustrations Lucas dealt with in making the 1977 movie were related to the relatively primitive f/x technology available at the time. And it's not hard to imagine Lucas must have even more amazing visions for the SW universe, which could not be fully realized around 1977-1983.

Obviously it meant a lot to him to at least give folks an idea about how some things could have been different if CGI had been widely available during the years he was making the OT.

Had Lucas' changes to the Star Wars OT been limited to special effects improvement only, there would have been no controversy.

And you know that, I'm sure. But a fanboy's gotta fanboy...

[Brandon K]

Originally Posted by Lyle_JP

Had Lucas' changes to the Star Wars OT been limited to special effects improvement only, there would have been no controversy.

Half of the controversy, for me anyway, is the non-availability of the originals. The non-anamorphic DVD release can't really be taken as availability.

Even more importantly, the original special effects were groundbreaking and historic. Replacing them is a tragedy for the history of film, and an insult to the accomplishments of the artists who created them.

So if the changes to the OT were limited to special effects "improvement" only - there would still be controversy.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by Brandon K

Half of the controversy, for me anyway, is the non-availability of the originals. The non-anamorphic DVD release can't really be taken as availability.

Not to mention that the Star Wars Trilogy is basically the one thing that keeps Laserdisc even quasi-relevant as a format. If the original cuts of the OT were readily available on a modern format (i.e. not shoddy non-anamorphic LD-derived masters that were only introduced in a limited edition SKU and are long-OOP), the demand for LD players would be cut at least in half.

Originally Posted by Brandon K

Even more importantly, the original special effects were groundbreaking and historic. Replacing them is a tragedy for the history of film, and an insult to the accomplishments of the artists who created them.

So if the changes to the OT were limited to special effects "improvement" only - there would still be controversy.

Definitely true, but having ol' George flip the bird to the fanbase by having Emo Anakin as a Force ghost and dubbing in a Gungan voiceover during the ending celebration really rubs the salt into the wound.

[happydood]

Originally Posted by BluBonnet

Why should it be considered amazing at all?

Some of the biggest frustrations Lucas dealt with in making the 1977 movie were related to the relatively primitive f/x technology available at the time. And it's not hard to imagine Lucas must have even more amazing visions for the SW universe, which could not be fully realized around 1977-1983.

Obviously it meant a lot to him to at least give folks an idea about how some things could have been different if CGI had been widely available during the years he was making the OT. He also slightly altered some f/x shots in THX-1138.

Lucas was absolutely instrumental to the new era of special effects, and even to CG animation (since Pixar started out as a Lucas company). Anybody who second-guesses such a brilliant genius is merely admitting belonging to an altogether lower class of people than those who, like Lucas, have forever altered pop culture, filmmaking, and lots of other innovations related to movie exhibition (such as fancy sound systems in theaters).

Lucas is a true genius... His critics? Not so much.

Well, let's not make the mistake that ignorance and stupidity mean someone is a lesser person. Ignorance means someone doesn't know the context of something. Stupidity means they can't know. And neither supports an argument that Lucas is a genius. Let's also not make the mistake that something old or considered classic necessarily IS classic because it ain't necessarily so. Rather, I suspect Lucas will ultimately be a figure hailed for his achievements who made some unfortunate missteps.

An obvious comparison is Coppola. When he's firing on all cylinders he creates (or created) movies as good as anyone could hope to claim. (The Godfather Part II is THE great American movie imo- just so everybody knows where I'm coming from.) But he had a lot of failures. 'Interesting failures' in his own words, but still failures.

I always marvel that ANYTHING gets made and comes out well let alone something like the original Star Wars that involved so many potential pitfalls as bluescreens and untried special effects and poor dialogue and untried actors. But I tend to be someone who says 'Oh look what they were trying to do,' as opposed to 'That burns my eyes!'